Hounds And Sit-Stays

[Guest HoundSmitten]

I'm having a bit of a disagreement with my trainer, and wondered if anyone else could offer more insight. I'm wondering if what I've been told about sighthounds is perhaps not accurate, or if my trainier just doesn't understand sighthounds.

 

My hound is a 7-year-old Lurcher (a greyhound/terrier cross from the UK). Physically he is greyhound size and build, though you can see the terrier in his personality. He was a rescue, and I don't know much about his history, except that he was physically abused, and was probably trained for hunting before he came into rescue at about 14 months old. He was very poorly socialized with dogs, though he's lovely with humans. I have had him in training for most of his life to try to socialize him better, he has a huge chip on his shoulder with other dogs, and can be dog-aggressive (though he has dog friends, and he lived with another dog for years without incident). He's made progress over the years, and has been doing well in his current class. But now I'm uncomfortable with something the trainer is asking us to do a lot.

 

That is a prolonged sit-stay (5-10 minutes). My hound was 4 years old before I ever saw him sit spontaneously. I can probably count on one hand the times he has sat spontaneously since then. I've since taught him the 'sit' command, but he doesn't stay there for more than a few seconds before he pops back up to standing, or lowers into a down position. Greyhounds and lurchers are very common in the UK, where I adopted him. Trainers there are familiar with hounds not sitting much, and are quite casual about substituting a down-stay for a sit-stay when a hound is uncomfortable in a sitting position. Where we live now in the US you don't see too many sighthounds of any kind, and the trainers here are not familiar with their quirks. (It's not a racing state).

 

My position is that I cannot see any reason to make my dog stay in a position that is physically uncomfortable for him. He is reliable in a down-stay, and somewhat less reliable in a stand-stay, but that's workable. I've had a couple of trainers in the past who suggested mildly aversive training techniques for various things, but they just seemed to produce very situation-specific learning, and when the aversive stimulus was removed he behaved as he wanted to again. And I believe they undermined his trust in me. When I use reward-based training he learns much more effectively. I see the prolonged sit-stay as an aversive training requirement.

 

My trainer is not familiar with sighthounds. I have the feeling that he doesn't believe me about hounds being uncomfortable in a sit position, and he has said that he thinks it is letting the dog off too easy by allowing him to choose a down-stay instead. He says we need to challenge dogs, to make them do things that are difficult for them, in order to help them learn. (He often advocates mildly aversive training techniques to other dog owners, but is aware that I will not use those techniques with this dog).

 

It took me a long time to find a trainer that would allow my dog into group classes when we moved here, because of his dog-aggression, so I am wanting to keep attending these classes. And as I said, my dog has done well in the classes up until now, but I'm really uncomfortable with this particular piece of the curriculum.

 

I'm curious about what others know about greyhounds and sitting? I was always told that many hounds just never sit, it's not comfortable for their long, bony bodies, so they just don't do it. I have known hounds that did sit, and hounds that didn't. I've done a brief internet search and couldn't find any references from veterinary sources that said anything about it one way or another. Am I just letting my dog be lazy? Or is their a physical reason for the dog to avoid sitting? I do know that at least one of the therapy dog certification organizatons gives greyhounds a "pass" on the sit-stay requirement. Couldn't find any documentation for their reasoning on that, though. I'd appreciate any input in either direction, and also point me to any references, if you know of them.

 

Thanks!

[boopieface]

My two greyhounds have to sit before they get their food otherwise they would just bowl us over! . My boy will sit until we release him. If he breaks the sit stay, we pick up his food until he sits again. Then he has to wait until we release him. He probably sits for about two minutes sometimes. He is not uncomfortable. I think it may be that if they are in prime racing condition with nice tight toned muscles it may be a bit uncomfortable, but after they've been pets for a while they loosen up a bit. I had one grey that would sit in front of the window in the living room for ages watching the traffic go by. I think you just have to reward them with a high value treat to get them to sit/stay. Start with a short time, and gradually increase it.

[krissy]

Do not routinely do long sit-stays. However, I also don't train for obedience. I will potentially ask Kili to hold a sit for a minute or more on the agility start line, and we are working on her sit pretty with building duration. If I ever decide to show her in formal obedience she will have to do a 5 minute sit-stay at the higher levels. Sitting is not particularly uncomfortable for her and she will offer sits, though the down is probably still more comfortable for her.

 

Summit I have mostly stopped requesting sits and just ask for stand or down stays. As he's gotten older (he's turning 9 in May) he has become more reluctant to sit when asked, and I accept that because he genuinely seems uncomfortable compared to a few years ago. But a few years ago I certainly asked him to sit and often made him maintain it for a minute or two. Again, I did not compete him in obedience so I didn't have much reason to ask for a longer stay than that, and if I did I generally asked for it in a down.

 

While I do not think it is necessary to do a long sit-stay, I think it is important to differentiate whether it is truly uncomfortable for the dog or we simply perceive it as uncomfortable because they are greyhounds. I have one of each. Kili has a comfortable sit and I have no qualms about asking for it. Summit is no longer comfortable and I have no reason to use it so I don't. Unless the dog is in physical pain I see no reason not to. Uncomfortable is different than painful. Uncomfortable I will work with if I feel like I need to (if I wanted to show in obedience). I would work up slowly and I would jackpot the long sit-stays to make it a very rewarding behaviour. Pain is different and I wouldn't ask for a behaviour I thought was truly painful for the dog, I would substitute a down-stay in that case.

 

Jennifer Bachelor has shown her greyhounds to the highest level of obedience which requires long sit-stays so you can certainly read up on her blog about training that.

[Feisty49]

I don't care whether Annie sits and stays in that sit but then she waits quietly and patiently while I fix her food and put it down. Admittedly I'm not one to train a dog unless there is an issue to correct, and Annie has no issues.

 

I wouldn't like someone I've hired, such as a dog trainer, insisting on something that goes against the grain of what you feel your dog is capable of doing. Sitting, sure lots of houndies do it, but what's the need for sitting for 5-10 minutes?

[Guest jetska]

Long dogs get more comfortable with sitting the more often they are asked to do it. I don't really buy the argument that training a 5 - 10 minute sit-stay is 'aversive'. Some dogs don't like coming back when they are called, doesn't mean teaching them recall is aversive.

 

That said, it's clear you feel pretty strongly about this. It would be silly to let it come between you and the trainer if it meant your dog had no more training classes to go to. Have you offered a down/stay instead?

[Guest Lillypad]

We are working on this very command now. I am anxious to hear what tips Greytalk folks have. I am hoping Giselle will chime in with some tips and advice. My hound has understood the sit command for quite some time now, but we have only recently,(about 5 weeks) been working on sit/stay. I am pleased to say she is at the 2 - 3 min mark, but only in the house, so we have our work cut out to generalize the behavior. It certainly can be a challenge to keep them from popping up or down, but I think this can be said for most dogs learning this command. To get to the stage we are at now I stood very close in front of her and watched closely, if she started to pop one way or the other, I would quickly give her a treat and ask "sit/stay before she had a chance to move. Sometimes, I would gently put my toes in front of her paws to discourage her from popping to a down. When I felt comfortable that she was understanding the command and working with me, I started to move back and ask for longer sit/stay periods. We progressed very slowly all the while rewarding with praise, treats and jackpots. How important this command is to you is a personal preference, but I believe that it should not cause you or your hound stress. The trick is to find the most positive and productive method. There are much more productive methods than an aversive one. Unless your boy is suffering from joint pain, I feel that your hound can do the job if taught correctly. I commend you on the efforts and training that you have done so far socializing him. There are many hounds on this site that do non-traditional tasks. A bit of inspiration for you would be Jennifer Bachelor who has hounds performing agility, obedience and even dock jumping. Krissy (very cleverly) has taught her greyhound to pivot off her hip (a frisbee sport maneuver, traditionally done by retrievers, B collies and the like).

 

Check out these sites.

Never say never.blog,

Apex Agility Greyhounds

Aragon Greyhounds

 

I am traveling this road with you and also look forward to what Greytalk has to suggest.

[Sambuca]

One of my dogs does not sit at all, one does sit a bit. When my class worked on sit stays both did either stand or down stays. Occasionally I'd ask Sailor for a sit stay, but it was rare and they were still short. Tell your teacher that you appreciate what he's saying, but you will do what you think is best for your dog. My first class with Bu, the teacher tried to have me teach him to sit by physically tucking his butt under. While I was gentle, and so was the teacher, it was extremely uncomfortable for Bu and he actually tried biting me a few times. After the last time, when I was in tears for causing him discomfort, I finally told the teacher that I would not be teaching Bu sit. His comfort was more important. Some greyhounds do sit naturally and comfortable, but others don't. Do what's best for your dog.

[krissy]

Oh, just on re-reading your post... I stand by everything in my original post, however I would be finding a new trainer. Not because he is unfamiliar with sighthounds (most trainers are) and not because he thinks dogs should be challenged (I tend to agree), but because he uses aversive techniques even though it is on other dogs. I used a trainer for show handling only because she was the only one who offered it in the area. She often used mild aversives on some of the rowdier dogs, but never on mine. Still, I found that Kili became increasingly nervous at that training location but not at my obedience or agility facilities. She would become more obviously upset about any raised voice directed at the other dogs in the show handling class. The instructor was always very sweet and mild with Kili, and it's not like she was screaming or hitting the other dogs... but these hounds can be incredibly sensitive. I haven't gone back as a result.

[Guest Lillypad]

Krissy.... says... "I stand by everything in my original post, however I would be finding a new trainer" Hear, hear, Krissy!!! I felt the same way about the trainer. Agree, Hope you are in an area where you can find someone more suitable for your training needs.

 

BTW. It is "Never say Never Greyhounds" .... Not Never say Never.... that will get you Justin Bieber and you don't want that.... LOL

Edited February 26, 2014 by Lillypad

[a_daerr]

I'm with you on this one. Truman is excellent at sit-stays, but there's no way he could hold it for five minutes. He starts sliding about 30 seconds in, even less if it's a particularly slippery type of floor. And it's not for lack of practice. We do sit-stays everyday, and have done them in all seven of the obedience classes he's taken. Even though many greyhounds *are* natural sitters, I've finally accepted the fact that mine isn't. I can't justify making him do something that's physically uncomfortable.

 

Unless you're doing very advanced levels of obedience, I don't really see anything wrong with using a down-stay. They even allow sighthounds that option on the CGC/TDI tests. If your trainer isn't willing to bend, I'd get rid of him. Before anything else, training should be a fun and enjoyable experience for both of you.

[Batmom]

My first two hounds could both do 4+ minute sit-stays (often a good 6-7 minutes before release, dunno if it was ever 10). We learned to do it because it was part of the class at that time. Since those first two hounds, I haven't seen any need to teach sit-stays that are that long.

 

Sooooo .... YOU decide. If there's a long stay, put the hound in the position you want him to stay in, and work on him holding that position for the length of time you want. Sit, stand, down -- doesn't matter. Just work on getting him to perform the task you set him to.

 

For CGI, hound must sit but doesn't have to sit-STAY for any length of time. You can use a down for your stay-recall.

 

 

 

 

ETA: There are times in the classes I take when I don't do what the trainer tells the class to do. My dog isn't ready, my dog has had enough of that task, whatever logical reason I have. The trainers I work with are cool with that. If yours isn't, time to find a new trainer.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Batmom

[NeylasMom]

It depends on the dog. Do I think it's a myth that greyhounds can't sit? Absolutely. It doesn't come as naturally to them because they haven't been reinforced for doing it since puppyhood so it can be trickier to teach, but they can all do it. Is it uncomfortable to maintain a sit for long periods of time? I think for some it probably is. Zuri can do extended sit stays no problem. And I didn't have much trouble teaching him to sit compared to some greyhounds. Violet was easy enough to teach, but her hind legs quiver when she's in an upright sit, so I'm happy to let her flop to the side a bit if she's going to hold it.

 

In the end, it's really up to you whether it's important or not that your dog be able to do extended sit stays. It sounds like for you it's not, and I think that's totally reasonable. So just let her trainer know it's not important to you, that you'd rather just focus on down stays. It's your dog, your decision. The main thing is that he does what you ask so I wouldn't train asking for the sit stay and then letting him move into a down. Just ask him for the down stay when others are working on the sit stay.

 

By the way, FWIW, I assist in dog training classes and the instructor teaches people how to fix it if the dog slides from the sit into the down, but she tells people if you don't care, that's fine. Many people just want their dog to stay put while they do something, like open the door for a guest, and couldn't care less whether the dog is sitting or lying down. Unless you're training for obedience competitions, who really cares, why not let the dog do what's more comfortable?

Edited February 26, 2014 by NeylasMom

[cleptogrey]

the trainer i use knows that greyhounds and igs and their need a "magic carpet". she is hysterical running around bringing the sighthound in need a rubber backed bath mat. it works, the dogs do their long sits. generally a long its is 5 min, a long down is 10 min. yes, i'm not showing, the mat would never fly in the ring, but for training purposes it works.

 

also, check the tail placement of your dog. if it's straight out behind them it's most likely pushing them back up. gently walk over, say stay and move the tail to the side. in a short amount of time they naturally keep their tail to the side. my salukis never had any problems w/ long sits and slept thru the long downs.

Edited February 26, 2014 by cleptogrey

[Guest Giselle]

1. WHY is this necessary? Are you competing? If you are, let us know, and we'll figure out a way to make the exercise more comfortable for your dog. Bodies are malleable and muscles can be trained. Even a mildly uncomfortable position may be made easier to hold if we train the body and the mind. Remember your first time holding a squat? I bet it hurt But practicing and building up duration over a period of time can help you hold that squat without significant struggle and for longer periods of time. But, again, if you're not competing in obedience, WHY is this necessary?

 

2. Some Greys really do find "Sit" uncomfortable. My late grey, Giselle, sat for up to 1 minute, but it was always painfully obvious that she found it uncomfortable. Her hips would quiver, she'd readjust herself constantly, and she *never* sat on her own. It was an uncomfortable position, and I only asked for it for short periods of time. On the other hand, for every grey that has found Sit uncomfortable, I know of many other greys who sit naturally and who can easily hold it. So, it depends - how does your dog feel about sitting?

 

3. If you MUST do a long Sit-Stay and it is not for obedience, can you teach a one-hip sit? This tends to be easier on greys who dislike the regular sit. And, if you're not competing, why exactly can't you do a Down-Stay? In my opinion, an inflexible trainer is a closed-minded trainer, and it is a trainer I would avoid.

 

Regarding aversives: For the vast majority of dogs and behaviors, I don't recommend using aversives, like collar popping or physical manipulations. I do not recommend "folding" dogs or "applying pressure until...XXXX", etc. I don't think aversives should ever enter the conversation unless we're talking about dogs competing or working at the upper echelons of obedience where there is still debate about mild aversives being used to refine already existing behaviors. If your trainer is using aversives to teach behaviors, that is a sign of an incompetent trainer. JMO.

[Guest Giselle]

Also... this idea of "mild aversives" is pretty nebulous. What exactly does this trainer do that you'd classify as an "aversive"? If s/he's routinely using techniques like collar popping, leash jerking, ear grabbing, etc., to teach behaviors, I would be extremely wary of this person and would personally recommend you withdraw from the class. I believe trainers like this need to (re-)pursue education in animal behavior & learning, rethink their techniques, and should not be supported until they do.

[GreytNut]

I don't see why a down-stay shouldn't suffice just as well, if your hound finds sitting awkward. Some can do it, some can't.

 

Riley does extended down-stays for each meal, anywhere from a minute to several minutes, and he's better-behaved as a result. I can leave the room and he will remain in the down-stay position until I release him to go eat. It's a great tool for stopping him from mobbing guests and not knocking over the person doing the feeding. I don't think he could manage an extended sit-stay though, and I wouldn't ask it of him.

[Guest Houston1219]

We taught sit in the nicest way possible I think lol. Houston loves his butt scratched, the harder the better, so we used that as a starting point. We would scratch right between his hip bones, but just gradually apply a little more pressure, which he loved. When you get them leg-thumping happy, they lean with the scratch. He plopped his but down after a few days of this and we threw a party of praises and treats. Now he uses it to get what he wants lol

 

As for how long they can hold it, or trainer explained that for such muscular dogs, they lack the specific muscles it takes to sit because they usually don't. At first his poor legs would shake after a few seconds! Now he's up to a minute or so

[Guest HoundSmitten]

Thanks everyone for your input. I have continued to substitute a down-stay when we are asked to put our dogs on a long sit-stay, and so far no problems, although I am aware the trainer does not agree with me on this. I have been observing my dog closely to try to determine whether sitting is uncomfortable, or just unnatural for him, still can't tell. He will sit easily on command, but really does not want to stay there for long. In a down-stay he's quite steady. The fact that he never, ever chooses to sit when he's not on a leash, but just going about his business, suggests it is not something he likes to do. I have no plans to ever show him. I had once hoped to train him as a therapy dog, but his reactivity toward other dogs just doesn't make him a suitable candidate for this. So I don't see a need for him to master long sit-stays. We do short ones, and lots of heeling/sitting/heeling/sitting work. That's good enough, I think.

 

My trainer does recommend a static electricity collar to most of his students. He had me try it on myself, and cranked it up pretty high to show me that it isn't painful for the dog. I didn't find it painful myself, but I won't use it on my dog for the reasons I said before. With aversive techniques in the past, whether spray collars, loud noises, etc., my dog just learned to do what he was commanded when the aversive stimulus was present, and to do whatever the heck he wanted when it was removed. And in his mind, I think, it put me in the category of being one more human who was going to do bad things to him. With reward-based training, on the other hand, he learns, then generalizes his new behavior to different situations pretty well. He is eager to do his training sessions, and seems pretty contented when we're finished, and seems to trust me. He's made lots of improvement over the years with this training, so I am not going to mess it up by adding in aversive training now.

 

Sadly, I live in an area where there are not many trainers to be found, and this was the only one who offers the kind of socialization that my dog needs. The next closest one is an hour's drive away. It's worth it for me to try to find a way to work with this guy if I can. The sitting is the only area where we really disagree, so I think it's managable.

 

Thanks, Grey Pup, for the references (and thanks, Lillypad for the edit--no, I would not want Justin Bieber!). I will look at what they have to say. Also going to see the vet tomorrow about something unrelated, and will ask for his thoughts on it as well.

[NeylasMom]

Good for you for sticking to your guns, and for thinking this through and figuring out what makes the most sense for your dog, rather than just following the trainer's advice blindly.

 

Side comment, does the trainer really refer to it as a static electricity collar? I've heard some alternate terms that trainers using punishment like to use to make the collars sound nicer than they are, but that's a new level of creativity, static electricity. Bottom line, it's a shock collar.