Had A Disappointing Day With Wiley Yesterday And Now Feeling Frustrate

[Guest DogNewbie]

Hello Everyone,

 

I don't know who else to talk to about this and the BF is no help. He always says stuff like "oh its a dog thing". Guys...

 

Anyway, we went to the dog park yesterday (no BF) with my friend Sean and his Belgian Mal, Copper who is he sweetest dog ever. We do this every Saturday at 9am. We did 2 laps of the park, which is huge for Wiley as he is usually done after 1 or 1.5 laps. The 2 dogs where having a blast and it is great to see Wiley have so much fun. They would run and play with other dogs but if they got to playful, Wiley and Copper would stand up for each other which was adorable. Anyways, we had a great walk and Wiley was listening pretty well. He would even come up to me for pets!

 

I took Wiley back there in the afternoon by myself because he needs more exercise as he is a bit...plump? Curvy? Pudgy? My fault, I just can't resist those cute brown eyes! Anyways, he wasn't listening to me at all. He just completely ignored me so I put him back on his leash and we did 1 lap. He got really nervous, wouldn't take treats, had his tail low and he just looked miserable. I don't know if the other dogs were bugging him but I tried to shoo them away if they go to close. But he just seemed unhappy and nervous. Usually he loves the dog park!

 

Then later that evening I wanted to move him over as he was sprawled out on the bed as usual. We move him over all the time so I thought it was no big deal. He growled at me! I said "no" and got him off the bed. When he wanted on later, I made sure he "asked" first and didn't just jump on. I don't know if the growl means he doesn't trust me any more or something.

 

Now, I just feel frustrated. He listens to the BF way better than me, so I always try to go with him. Yesterday I thought I would try by myself and it didn't work. And the growling! He hasn't growled at me since August (we got him in July). Should we make him sleep on the floor for a bit? If we do, how do we make him understand he is there for growling? I am going to see if I can get extra training, because I want him to listen to me. I know I shouldn't take it personally or anything, it just sucks and is kind of embarrassing if your dog just ignores you.

 

Thanks for listening!

[greysmom]

OY!

 

He growled at you because he didn't want to move. Growling is the only way he has to communicate with you and has little, if anything, to do with his "trusting" you. Don't take it personally because he doesn't mean it personally. Acknowledge his point of view and make him move anyway. Either use a treat to lure him off, or clip on his leash. In a less important time, teach him a command, like "off," or "scoot" that means you need to move now.

 

He wasn't having fun at the dog park because his freind wasn't there and he didn't feel as confident without him.

 

He doesn't listen to you because he knows he doesn't have to. You need to remember to be a leader for him and not just a treat machine. Practice your recall more at home in less distracting circumstances.

 

If you can't control your "treat habit" use smaller treats. My husband has the same problem, BTW. Why give half a milk bone when a whole one is what they want? Adjust your meals to include less/more kibble depending on his treat consumption during the day.

[ramonaghan]

Could he maybe have overdone it a bit (since you mentioned that two laps was more than usual) and was sore or just especially tired? I totally get how you're feeling, but you're right that you shouldn't take it personally. I think dogs have "off days" just like people do. Try to approach it like Wiley, who has likely forgotten it altogether! And remember that growling is a good thing and the dog's first line of communicating displeasure, not something you should punish.

[MaryJane]

I've found that walking with my dog is one of the better ways to build up a bond. When you walk, walk with a purpose (tight lead so he is right by your leg) and for Wiley, no sniffing for at least the 1st 10 minutes of the walk. About 10 minutes into the walk, let him sniff around at one area for a few minutes and then finish the walk with the tight lead so he is right by your leg and no sniffing. Should be a brisk walk. If he can't do the 20 minutes, then bring it down to 10 minutes or whatever he can handle. Make sure that you talk to him throughout the brisk walk. When you are doing the walk with him by your side - use the "heel" word and tell him he's a good boy. When you come to a crossing - use a word for "wait" and again, praise him lavishly as he does it. When you want to slow a bit, use the word for "slow down" and the same when you want to make the pace faster. By talking to him throughout the walk and praising him - he'll start to love the walks and you. I never treat on walks - I want my dogs to get the praise by from "words".

 

Good luck.

[Batmom]

Probably overdid it at the dog park and was tired, hence didn't want to move.

 

2nd round at the dog park: He may have been tired from the earlier session. Plus, if he was on leash and others were off -- that's REALLY scary for the on-leash dog.

 

Pudgy: Combo of feeding less and reasonable exercise is best . Not going to die if it takes several weeks for him to get back into the shape you feel is right for him.

[Guest DogNewbie]

Thanks for all of the advice guys! I really appreciate it. I guess I over react some times and I think I forget that I am learning to! He is my first dog so I am probably not consistent enough or something.

 

Thanks everyone

[Guest Giselle]

Please also note: It is almost never a problem of the dog "not listening". It's a problem of the owner not communicating correctly. I see this SO many times. Whenever dogs refuse to recall for their less-experienced owners, the owners often retrieve their dogs, clip them on leash, and the dog's demeanor completely changes. Instead of communicating with their dog, they tend to do things like disallow them from sniffing, tugging them unnecessarily, keeping them on a short leash, and moving in domineering ways. Their owners do this because they've been mistakenly advised to "show the dog leadership" and "enforce rules", but they're not. What they're more often doing is scaring the dog. That is a very common mistake that I see, and I'm wondering if that played a role in this. The behaviors you described are fear behaviors, and, more often than not, we humans are scaring the dog.

 

In the meantime, learn to communicate with your dog better by engaging in fun training games and keeping his focus on you in public places. This way, you can avoid recall refusals entirely. This is a complex thing to teach, so I recommend finding a responsible dog trainer educated in animal behavior and progressive training techniques. Good luck!

[Guest Lillypad]

Hi, The above members have given you so much wonderful advice on this topic. I believe your only disadvantage is that you are a novice dog owner. The fact that you are taking Wiley to agility is GREAT, but perhaps you should also strongly consider an obedience class as well. You sound very keen on agility for you and Wiley. Obedience and agility go hand in hand. While agility is action packed and fun, obedience really is the foundation of agility. Sorry to say your BF's way of thinking is only half right when he says "dogs will be dogs" this may be true, but when we choose to co-habitate with dogs/animals, safety and trust MUST be fundamental in the relationship. I encourage him to join you at obedience classes so you will both be on the same page when instructing Wiley. A reliable recall is difficult for most dogs, especially for greyhounds and may take much time and many repetitions to imprint. We constantly work on recall, don't beat yourself up over that one. I believe what happened at the park is a separate scenario from growling at you. I agree 100% that growling is a better way to communicate and much much safer than a reactive bite. But, I believe his growling also says "Go away, I am not moving, who do you think you are anyway" and this attitude would "concern ME in MY house". Regardless of what may have caused this behavior, it shouldn't go unchecked. I personally, don't allow my dog to sleep in my bed or on my sofa and she is not permitted to approach our table during meals. I believe there have to be ground rules in place. Our girl has a soft comfy bed in every room of our house and I believe she is much more SECURE in knowing that is "her spot", the sofa and bed belong to us. I never used force or loud voice to teach her this, I calmly asked "Off and pointed to her bed" I needed to ask this twice of her and have never needed to ask since. There is a wonderful dog trainer, Victoria Stilwell that you can follow on You-tube. I only watch her training videos (Teachers Pet) as I find her show a little too dramatic and tedious. She has a wonderful video showing you how to teach your dog by "asking" them to "go to their spot" You have only had Wiley for a very short time, this is most definitely a learning curve period, but much more importantly this is the formative period as well in your relationship. Mistakes made now will be harder to correct in the future. I believe if you set a good foundation and ground rules with POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT you will only strengthen the bond, security and respect Wiley will have with you both. If you enjoy Wiley sleeping in your bed, I respect your choice and completely understand the emotional comfort of "snuggling" in bed and on the sofa. Where your dogs sleeps is really irrelevant, what is important is setting up effective boundaries and ground rules. I only mentioned our household sleeping arrangements as an example of the boundaries that we have in place at our home. I have never forced Lilly in any of our training, actually she would only shut down on me if I did. Positive reinforcement is the only effective method of training. Having said this, when you seek out a trainer make certain this is their method of training. Be kind to yourself, adjustment with a new dog really does take time and effort. Wishing you every success and happy days ahead. P.S Victoria Stilwell also has positive training tips on recall techniques. I hope I have been helpful in some way. Regards,

[Guest Giselle]

I think this is an important moment for education about our terminology: Positive reinforcement is not the only effective way to train. For one, there is no such thing as "positive reinforcement only" training. All of us use all four quadrants of operant conditioning every day, 24/7. In some way or another, we all do positive/negative punishment/reinforcement. We use all four. No educated dog trainer or behaviorist would ever suggest that we can do "+R only". We can choose to prefer mostly +R and -P, but we are always using all four quadrants. Example: a stern "NO!" is positive punishment, removing your attention when your dog jumps on you is negative punishment, tugging the leash until your dog stops pulling is negative reinforcement, etc. A more in-depth explanation: http://www.progressdog.com/how-dogs-learn.html

 

Using positive reinforcement and negative punishment (+R and -P) are certainly preferable and, in my opinion, the more humane option. But positive punishment and negative reinforcement (+P and -R), while regarded as less preferable and less humane, are very effective. Just look at all those dogs competing in obedience trained by traditionalists. Those dogs earn high titles performing very complex behaviors, and yet they were trained with +P and -R. Dog behavior is not so cut and dried, and the trick to effective dog training is knowing which quadrant to use and when. Positive reinforcement and Neg punishment are preferred for teaching recall, but many less-experienced dog owners find it difficult to teach a solid recall because they aren't well versed in Neg Punishment (i.e. they aren't skilled at preventing mistakes and refusals). So, that's why I recommend seeking in-person help from an educated and proven professional.

[vjgrey]

I'm REALLY not a dog park person, so I have zero experience with that. However, in general terms, it's sometimes a bad idea to have one leashed dog surrounded by unleashed dogs. He may've been tail-tucked and anxious because he felt vulnerable. If you're going to leash walk him, I'd take him out of the park.

[Guest Lillypad]

I agree positive reinforcement works hand in hand with negative punishment. Makes sense that balance and logic are key. I also agree that a skilled trainer/behaviorist is essential when you are a novice dog owner who encounters scenarios that are worrisome to you. Read, investigate and take advantage of all the wonderful resources we have available to us now. We are fortunate at this time to be coming out of the "old school ideas" and have the benefit of the many advances being made in understanding our canine companions. There is a training tool for every scenario, just strive to make it a happy and productive one for Wiley and yourself. The site www.progressdog.com is an inspiring site to be sure, thank you Giselle for advising it. I have actually recently ordered Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt and am looking forward to reading it.

[Guest DogNewbie]

Please also note: It is almost never a problem of the dog "not listening". It's a problem of the owner not communicating correctly. I see this SO many times. Whenever dogs refuse to recall for their less-experienced owners, the owners often retrieve their dogs, clip them on leash, and the dog's demeanor completely changes. Instead of communicating with their dog, they tend to do things like disallow them from sniffing, tugging them unnecessarily, keeping them on a short leash, and moving in domineering ways. Their owners do this because they've been mistakenly advised to "show the dog leadership" and "enforce rules", but they're not. What they're more often doing is scaring the dog. That is a very common mistake that I see, and I'm wondering if that played a role in this. The behaviors you described are fear behaviors, and, more often than not, we humans are scaring the dog.

 

In the meantime, learn to communicate with your dog better by engaging in fun training games and keeping his focus on you in public places. This way, you can avoid recall refusals entirely. This is a complex thing to teach, so I recommend finding a responsible dog trainer educated in animal behavior and progressive training techniques. Good luck!

 

Hello Giselle,

 

Thank you for the advice! He just escaped out the door when the furnace guys where over trying to install our new AC/furnace unit. He ran out the door, crossed the street and down 2 blocks before I caught him. Gave me a bloody heart attack as I am running down the sidewalks covered in 2" of ice in my socks. At least I caught him!! Again, he never came when I called him.

 

Any suggestions on how to practice the recall for newbies?

[Guest DogNewbie]

Hi, The above members have given you so much wonderful advice on this topic. I believe your only disadvantage is that you are a novice dog owner. The fact that you are taking Wiley to agility is GREAT, but perhaps you should also strongly consider an obedience class as well. You sound very keen on agility for you and Wiley. Obedience and agility go hand in hand. While agility is action packed and fun, obedience really is the foundation of agility. Sorry to say your BF's way of thinking is only half right when he says "dogs will be dogs" this may be true, but when we choose to co-habitate with dogs/animals, safety and trust MUST be fundamental in the relationship. I encourage him to join you at obedience classes so you will both be on the same page when instructing Wiley. A reliable recall is difficult for most dogs, especially for greyhounds and may take much time and many repetitions to imprint. We constantly work on recall, don't beat yourself up over that one. I believe what happened at the park is a separate scenario from growling at you. I agree 100% that growling is a better way to communicate and much much safer than a reactive bite. But, I believe his growling also says "Go away, I am not moving, who do you think you are anyway" and this attitude would "concern ME in MY house". Regardless of what may have caused this behavior, it shouldn't go unchecked. I personally, don't allow my dog to sleep in my bed or on my sofa and she is not permitted to approach our table during meals. I believe there have to be ground rules in place. Our girl has a soft comfy bed in every room of our house and I believe she is much more SECURE in knowing that is "her spot", the sofa and bed belong to us. I never used force or loud voice to teach her this, I calmly asked "Off and pointed to her bed" I needed to ask this twice of her and have never needed to ask since. There is a wonderful dog trainer, Victoria Stilwell that you can follow on You-tube. I only watch her training videos (Teachers Pet) as I find her show a little too dramatic and tedious. She has a wonderful video showing you how to teach your dog by "asking" them to "go to their spot" You have only had Wiley for a very short time, this is most definitely a learning curve period, but much more importantly this is the formative period as well in your relationship. Mistakes made now will be harder to correct in the future. I believe if you set a good foundation and ground rules with POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT you will only strengthen the bond, security and respect Wiley will have with you both. If you enjoy Wiley sleeping in your bed, I respect your choice and completely understand the emotional comfort of "snuggling" in bed and on the sofa. Where your dogs sleeps is really irrelevant, what is important is setting up effective boundaries and ground rules. I only mentioned our household sleeping arrangements as an example of the boundaries that we have in place at our home. I have never forced Lilly in any of our training, actually she would only shut down on me if I did. Positive reinforcement is the only effective method of training. Having said this, when you seek out a trainer make certain this is their method of training. Be kind to yourself, adjustment with a new dog really does take time and effort. Wishing you every success and happy days ahead. P.S Victoria Stilwell also has positive training tips on recall techniques. I hope I have been helpful in some way. Regards,

 

Hello Lillypad!

 

Thanks for the training advice. I will definitely watch those YouTube videos. I want him to listen to me out of respect but mainly for safety. Today, He escaped out the door when the furnace guys where over trying to install our new AC/furnace unit. He ran out the door, crossed the street (when a car was coming! thank goodness they were going slow and saw him!!) and down 2 blocks before I caught him. Gave me a bloody heart attack as I am running down the sidewalks covered in 2" of ice in my socks. At least I caught him!! Again, he never came when I called him. What specifically is obedience training? We did beginner & intermediate training at Pet Smart. Is that the same thing? Or is it different?

 

If I want on the bed (or BF) I make Wiley get off, then we get in and then invite him in. That way we are in first and get the "best" spot.

 

Thanks!

[Banjoman]

"Any suggestions on how to practice the recall for newbies? "

 

Hi, I am not a trainer but I have had sight hounds (Whippets) for over twenty years.

My first greyhound arrived in my house two weeks ago & I have nowhere safe to train her recall except my house and small back garden. I was taught to do all recall work on the lead at first, gradually using a longer & longer lead. If you have somebody to help by holding the dog's collar once they are let off the lead that helps unless you have perfected a reliable "stay" or "wait" command. With luck, after a little while you can do the recalls between you. If you find Wiley ignores the command "Come" or whatever word you use, try using a new command & work with him on the lead so that he cannot ignore you. Whether you use treats, clicker or verbal praise will probably depend on what you've used so far. After a while I add in a dog whistle to the command because that sound carries further than the human voice, especially on windy days.

 

This is something I am going to have to work on with Chancey because unless I can get a good recall with her she will never have the opportunity to run free as there are no safely fenced areas I can let her loose in.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Carol.

[Guest Amber]

Hi

what a nightmare chasing him 2 blocks when he got loose, you must have been frantic!

 

Can you practise calling him in your home, with really great rewards like chicken? If you keep doing this consistently and then progress outside on leash with you running backwards and calling him in an excited voice it becomes a fun game for him.

 

there's lots of good advice on the net on bonding with your new dog, mostly centered around playful training.

 

It does depend on the individual dog and relationship between dog and person...we have all been there when things just aren't right somehow and you and the dog are not in tune...like all relationships, it takes time and work but even then, relationships are fluid, especially with a sensitive breed like greyhounds and some days go better than others. Easier said than done i know ( cos I'm a worrywort ) but try to relax and maybe not over do things so much with him e.g. 2 big walks a day, when 1 trip to the park with his friend where he had a good experience was ideal. For alternative walks just do short leash walk and practice some recall stuff at home instead ?

 

So glad you got him back safe and sound, well done!

[Sambuca]

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=dtb813

[Guest Lillypad]

Hi, to answer you question, "what is obedience training" I guess I would have to say it is a personal matter of just how much you expect from your dog. It ranges from elementary to advanced like most skills we seek to learn or teach. I believe all will agree that a certain amount of obedience training is required for the sheer safety of your dog. Case in point, the dangers like running out the door and down the street. I think every one who has ever owned a dog can relate to the horrors you felt chasing after Wiley, I know I have. While so far Lilly has not gotten away, she has come very close to it, it was only luck that prevented me from chasing after her. I am glad you caught up with him and disaster diverted. Once again I can only suggest watching Victoria Stillwell's videos. I can only advise you on what "WE" do, (CONSTANTLY) I have to admit, not a day goes by that we don't practice and reinforce and I have to reward every little detail with a treat and praise like she just won a Nobel price.

 

1. Lilly is asked to "wait" at the threshold of the door, I go out first then tell her "OK" and she follows
2. When someone comes to the door, she is asked to "down/stay" about 5-8 feet from the door and wait there till I answer the door, If I am satisfied that she is calm and listening I release her to greet the visitor.

3, We work on re-call constantly, I am always seeking out tips and techniques to try. So I will be checking out Sambuca's suggestion myself. Also had a look at the video Giselle suggested and it looks promising I will be trying this when I get the chance to work outside. I find a good recall in the house is a whole different ball of wax outside. Imagine Wiley's excitement running down the street, in his mind this was a whole lot of fun, why would he want to or care to "come" just cause you called. They say the trick to a good recall is when the dog "wants" to come to you, you are the MOST exciting thing for him, more fun than a squirrel, ball, other dog or person. That is a pretty tall order for most dogs especially a greyhound that is new to you.

4. Check the internet, you-tube, get advice from trainers and use ALL the resources, tricks of the trade and any thing you can to aid you in recall training, continue to train, retrain, generalize the recall as much as possible.

5. In the mean time there is something called a "SQUAWKER" that can be VERY HELPFUL in an emergency situation like the one you experienced with Wiley. Apparently, they use this object at the race track to call dogs. My Lilly goes absolutely NUTS when she hears it. Her head and ears spring up, it really gets her attention, she will come bounding across the baseball diamond and just about jump into my arms. (And she is really not a jumper for the most part). The classes at PETSMART are a great foundation, the key is practice, practice, practice. Spend 3-5 minuets thorough out the day reinforcing commands that you think are important to you. Try a sit/stay or in the case of our greyhounds a down/stay for a count of 10-20 asking for focus on you before you give him his meals. Enforce wait before exiting the house, ask for a wait then release command "OK" before crossing the street, getting into and out of the car. All these requests may seem trivial, but what they do is require your dog to use control before action. Also read the threads here on Greytalk in training and behavior, keep in mind knowledge is power. Learn all you can. I enjoy the Blog NEVER SAY NEVER GREYHOUNDS, Jennifer is informative and inspiring, her training and tips are greyhound specific, I really like that. I have learned a great deal from her.

 

You can check out http://www.birdwellenterprises.com/dog%20accessories.html for the squawker that I mentioned, they are reasonably priced. BEST WISHES, Keep in mind, things will work out and you will be amazed at what Wiley can learn with lots of love and encouragement. Also many Greytalk members have suggested this link as well. http://gemgreyhounds.org/GEM-Store/category/squawker-scotch-predator-call

I have the scotch predator.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Lillypad