Newbie From Chicago

[Guest Lindsey]

Hello!

My name is Lindsey, and I don't currently have a greyhound but in the process of researching.

 

I currently have two Australian Koolies and they are my breed, I adore them and will always have them. But, I also grew up with big dogs that loved to snuggle, and cuddle and just be with me. My Koolies for all their charms are never going to be couch holder downers and I've been remembering how much I love having a bigger dog around. But, at the same time I'm looking for a breed that while not requiring as much daily long exercise still fits me temperament wise, a fun, easy going, happy companion. I love to train dogs, I love to go hiking, I love happy dogs that love to be with me, are my shadow and can be my go everywhere dogs. I need a dog that actually cares about me, shows affections, wants to cuddle but I was hoping for a larger dog that was more naturally polite (My Koolies think to be polite means to land on my shoulder screaming) and content to laze around with me on rainy days. But I also want a dog that I can dabble around training with, a challenge of a sort but still fun. Coursing has always looked fun to me but I've not yet had the chance to go just have a fun day with my non sighthounds.

 

I recently made a list of my wants and multiple people said "greyhound" which I was more than happy to look into since I've always been a fancier of sighthounds and in the last year have had multiple dreams about having a greyhound. I think they are stunning and everytime I'm out and meet one I fall in love all over again.

 

So for the last couple days I've been contacting people and doing more research and am becoming more and more convinced one would be a great addition in the next couple years.

 

So happy to be here! Can't wait to learn more.

 

Oh, and since I can't forget to introduce my two crazies, even if they aren't greyhounds.

 

This is my almost three year old boy named Traveler

 

 

And this is my evil demon dog Didgeridoo, 10 month old female

 

[spottydog]

Welcome to the club! Very interesting looking dogs. They share a trait with greyhounds - ETS - escaped tongue syndrome!

[PrairieProf]

Welcome! Lots of information here!

 

Do know that while greyhounds as a breed are almost all gentle and polite, some individuals are cuddly and others are less so. And they spend a whole lot of time asleep so they're not following you around or doing anything then! Most greyhounds are very affectionate but in more reserved ways than, say, a Lab. But your adoption group can help you find the kind of personality you want.

 

Also greys aren't very tolerant of heat or cold, so, while my grey loves everybody and loves to do things with me (her greatest pleasure is to be in public places getting petted by as many strangers as possible), weather can really limit our activities in the summer and winter. In the really hot part of summer things like hiking have to be done very early in the morning; that can definitely be a bummer. Some of them do like water though!

Edited February 2, 2013 by PrairieProf

[Guest undergreysspell]

Welcome, your Koolies are beautiful and I hope you can find the perfect grey to fit your family !

[Guest Lindsey]

Thank you for the welcomes!

 

Welcome! Lots of information here!

 

Do know that while greyhounds as a breed are almost all gentle and polite, some individuals are cuddly and others are less so. And they spend a whole lot of time asleep so they're not following you around or doing anything then! Most greyhounds are very affectionate but in more reserved ways than, say, a Lab. But your adoption group can help you find the kind of personality you want.

 

Also greys aren't very tolerant of heat or cold, so, while my grey loves everybody and loves to do things with me (her greatest pleasure is to be in public places getting petted by as many strangers as possible), weather can really limit our activities in the summer and winter. In the really hot part of summer things like hiking have to be done very early in the morning; that can definitely be a bummer. Some of them do like water though!

 

Thank you! That's why I joined, I've always found forums to be a wealth of information just like your post. I'll more than likely be going through a breeder so I'm hoping to find one in the next couple years who tends to produces dogs with the kind of temperament I'm looking for. And yes I've been reading about the dislike of either extreme of weather but that suits me just fine! I really am looking for a dog that can take it or leave it if they get their 10 mile bike ride/hiking trip everyday and wants to lay around on the couch with me when I'm feeling sick or it's raining. I'll still have my Koolies to deal with but having one dog that doesn't have his nose up my butt about it would be a breath of fresh air.

 

A water loving grey would be my dream! But I'm not going to count on it, just hopefully strongly encourage it!

[PrairieProf]

Going through a breeder?? You mean an AKC greyhound? Really, why would you do that when there are tons of fabulous retired racers around who need homes -- hounds of all personalities? It's not like greyhounds are some breed where you have to worry about temperament issues or health problems related to lousy breeding. The farm and racing background of NGA greys is actually a big part of what makes them such wonderful dogs. Adopt don't shop!!! There is NO reason to go with an AKC dog over a retired racer unless you want the extreme type that is favored in dog shows because you are planning to show yourself.

Edited February 2, 2013 by PrairieProf

[dmdsmoxie]

Going through a breeder?? You mean an AKC greyhound? Really, why would you do that when there are tons of fabulous retired racers around who need homes -- hounds of all personalities? It's not like greyhounds are some breed where you have to worry about temperament issues or health problems related to lousy breeding. The farm and racing background of NGA greys is actually a big part of what makes them such wonderful dogs. Adopt don't shop!!! There is NO reason to go with an AKC dog over a retired racer unless you want the extreme type that is favored in dog shows because you are planning to show yourself.

To elaborate a little more on the above post, in general NGA greyhounds are not commercially bred. You may find a backyard breeder that sells greyhound pups, but caution is advised. Racing greyhounds are bred on farms in NC, TX, Iowa, WV, Kansas, OK, Arkansas, FL and a few other states.

 

If you are looking for a greyhound puppy there are some from oops litters and you will see and adoption group that has a greyhound puppy that may have broken its leg and would not be able to race or has something else wrong that makes him unable to race, that doesn't stop him from being a great pet.

 

I would say if you Google greyhound puppy breeder Chicago area you will come up with none.

 

There are people on GT that have adopted a greyhound puppy and also have a retired racer and most will tell you they are different. The racer was brought up different. That is not to say the puppy isn't a great pet, they are just different.

 

Dick

[Guest Lindsey]

Going through a breeder?? You mean an AKC greyhound? Really, why would you do that when there are tons of fabulous retired racers around who need homes -- hounds of all personalities? It's not like greyhounds are some breed where you have to worry about temperament issues or health problems related to lousy breeding. The farm and racing background of NGA greys is actually a big part of what makes them such wonderful dogs. Adopt don't shop!!! There is NO reason to go with an AKC dog over a retired racer unless you want the extreme type that is favored in dog shows because you are planning to show yourself.

 

 

Wow, well thank you for the warm welcome. It's much appreciated! So are the assumptions, really thank you.

 

Whether it's an Conformation breeder, a more sport oriented breeder or a hunting/coursing breeder is yet to be decided but yes, a breeder is probably what I will end up going through. I'm still in the research phase.

 

Most, if any rescues would not approve me.

 

A:I don't alter dogs that come into my house unless a medical reason pops up that forces my hand. Therefore I have two intact dogs of opposite sexes in my house and do in fact plan to breed (Koolies) one day. I also will be keeping the greyhound (if I do decide to go in that direction) intact and for health reasons do not choose to own altered animals. Rescues would come altered.

 

B: I do not have a fenced in yard and that won't be changing

 

I also don't subscribe to the "Adopt don't shop" mentality seeing as both Didgie and Traveler are both from a breeder as any Koolie I ever have will be. In fact, my preference is dogs from reputable breeders. I did not know that was a choice that was villainized here, if that's the case I will be taking my leave of here.

 

 

To elaborate a little more on the above post, in general NGA greyhounds are not commercially bred. You may find a backyard breeder that sells greyhound pups, but caution is advised. Racing greyhounds are bred on farms in NC, TX, Iowa, WV, Kansas, OK, Arkansas, FL and a few other states.

 

If you are looking for a greyhound puppy there are some from oops litters and you will see and adoption group that has a greyhound puppy that may have broken its leg and would not be able to race or has something else wrong that makes him unable to race, that doesn't stop him from being a great pet.

 

I would say if you Google greyhound puppy breeder Chicago area you will come up with none.

 

There are people on GT that have adopted a greyhound puppy and also have a retired racer and most will tell you they are different. The racer was brought up different. That is not to say the puppy isn't a great pet, they are just different.

 

Dick

 

 

Thank you for your nicer worded post. Yes, I do know there are a lot of shady breeders out there and was thrown when I first started looking how few of information there is about greyhound breeders. But, I've got in contact with one who has been very helpful and have had a few others recommended to me by different people. This isn't a quick decision and I won't be looking at adding a dog for years so I've got plenty of time to go through everything with a fine toothed comb.

 

A breeder being in the Chicago area isn't anything I need. After importing two dogs from Australia (Traveler and Didgie) if the breeder lives in the United States I feel I'm doing good.

 

I have heard the differences seen in retired races vs puppies which is one of the reasons I was interested in a puppy, but I would still prefer from a breeder rather than through a rescue.

 

Edited February 2, 2013 by Lindsey

[macoduck]

I'm not going to step into the breeder vs rescue adoption topic. I am curious about your view that an unaltered dog is healthier. That runs contrary to everything I know, particularly regarding reproductive health.

[Guest Lindsey]

I wanted to apologize, though I do feel PrairieProf's post was rudely written and could just as easily been worded better, I didn't need to resort to being defensive and sarcastic. So, I'm sorry about that. I was rather thrown since most breed specific forums I've seen tend to be much more welcoming to people who are looking for a dog from a reputable breeder.

 

If a rescue greyhound falls into my lap I wouldn't say no. But, I will not be actively searching through any rescue since my preference will be for a puppy and intact which I could very easily see being almost impossible to find. But, I'm going to be an Expo in March and I know they always at least have one greyhound rescue group there so I'll make a point to talk to them.

 

 

I'm not going to step into the breeder vs rescue adoption topic. I am curious about your view that an unaltered dog is healthier. That runs contrary to everything I know, particularly regarding reproductive health.

 

Here's a couple links for you! The first one I think is the most interesting and I very much hope more studies are done in the nearish future.

 

 

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

 

This one is more of a summery but still interesting:

http://www.akcchf.org/research/funded-research/1488.html

 

This is a blog post, so not to be taken as fact:

 

http://www.doggedblog.com/doggedblog/2006/05/its_just_that_t.html

 

I would think with the tendency for bone cancer that I've read about in greyhounds, altering would be a concern since it's shown to increase risk of it.

 

And I had more but apparently the website is down so I can't get them!

 

Otherwise, most of it comes from my own personal experience. I think physically there is typically difference between altered and intact dogs, more prevalent of course in dogs altered younger and males. Muscle tone, length of legs, overall body development etc.

 

Pretty much what it comes down to is that I don't like removing hormones or organs that I think benefit the dog unless a reason pops up that makes it become a need.

[Hubcitypam]

I think the difference is greyhound forums and other forums is that many people on here think that there are very reputable NGA breeders. "Rescue" NGA greyhounds often come from breeders that have put a lot of time effort and money into breeding good dogs. A "rescue" greyhound most often will come with an easily traceable pedigree just like an AKC dog. Also a greyhound can come from an NGA breeder and be cross registered with the AKC. Does that make the original NGA breeder more reputable because the dog is now AKC?

 

If you have to have an AKC grey puppy it is good to start early as they are few and far between. I won a prize at a gathering one year guessing the number of AKC greyhonund liiters the previous year. It was 47. There has been much speculation and infighting over the years about AKC greys being too inbred as the gene pool is so very small.

[PrairieProf]

I am not going to apologize for any statement supporting dog adoption over getting a puppy from a breeder, that's for sure. And if I'm rude, well, I have pretty little moral respect for anyone who buys rather than adopts in general unless there is a very specific reason for needing an AKC dog or puppy, and less when it comes to greyhounds, where you can adopt a retired racer who has a pedigree back to the early 19th C at least. And given that 99% of the people on this forum have retired racers, don't expect any support here for negative attitudes about them or the implication that you are going to somehow make a better choice by not getting one.

Edited February 2, 2013 by PrairieProf

[Guest Lindsey]

I think the difference is greyhound forums and other forums is that many people on here think that there are very reputable NGA breeders. "Rescue" NGA greyhounds often come from breeders that have put a lot of time effort and money into breeding good dogs. A "rescue" greyhound most often will come with an easily traceable pedigree just like an AKC dog. Also a greyhound can come from an NGA breeder and be cross registered with the AKC. Does that make the original NGA breeder more reputable because the dog is now AKC?

 

If you have to have an AKC grey puppy it is good to start early as they are few and far between. I won a prize at a gathering one year guessing the number of AKC greyhonund liiters the previous year. It was 47. There has been much speculation and infighting over the years about AKC greys being too inbred as the gene pool is so very small.

 

I'm not looking for an "AKC" breeder who does conformation nor do I think being part of the AKC automatically makes someone a "good" breeder. That part is irrelevant to me. Like I said, I'm still learning the ins and outs and so far it seems like the greyhound community is different than a lot of the breeds I've dealt with. Am I wrong to think there are sport oriented breeders (maybe versatile would be a better word than sport), coursing/hunting/racing breeders and also conformation breeders with pets being produced from all? I know that's how it typically works in most breeds even if the "splits" are less extreme than in others.

 

I'm not looking for an 'AKC' breeder. I'm looking for a breeder who's dogs I can get to know and past dogs I can learn about, who I trust, who's going to be there for me from the time the puppy is born and can share their knowledge. I'm looking for a breeder who can pick the right puppy for me, that has the type of dogs I like, who will let me keep him intact, who breeds dogs that have the type of temperament I want, who knows the health concerns in their lines.

 

And like I said, I have a lot of doubts that I would ever be accepted by a rescue or be able to get an intact puppy through one. There might be other avenues that I can explore which I will do but there are a few things I will not bend on.

 

I don't know if I'm going to find everything I want, if I don't I'll cross that bridge when I get there. It may mean deciding against a grey, it may mean that I compromise on things. Whatever happens know that I'm not one to jump into anything, every decision I make is weighed carefully.

 

I can very much appreciate that this is your guys breed and you are protective about it and that the community as a whole is more rescue minded. But, I would like to say you might get much farther without the open hostility towards someone that wants to go to a breeder.

[Guest Lindsey]

I am not going to apologize for any statement supporting dog adoption over getting a puppy from a breeder, that's for sure. And if I'm rude, well, I have pretty little moral respect for anyone who buys rather than adopts in general unless there is a very specific reason for needing an AKC dog or puppy, and less when it comes to greyhounds, where you can adopt a retired racer who has a pedigree back to the early 19th C at least. And given that 99% of the people on this forum have retired racers, don't expect any support here for negative attitudes about them or the implication that you are going to somehow make a better choice by not getting one.

 

That's fine, it's good to know where people stand and who not to give much weight to. I don't care much for extremists or people who see the world in black and white. I will continue to buy from breeders regardless of people who disapprove since I'm not getting a dog for them but rather for me.

 

I don't quite understand the way you guys use the term AKC honestly. Maybe it's because I have a breed that isn't even recognized in their country of origin let alone our AKC and have been involved in other breeds that being part of the AKC really isn't anything anyone looks at.

 

I don't think going through a breeder is a better choice overall nor do I understand how you took that from my posts. I just think it's better for me personally and is what I prefer, for me.

 

Am I wrong to think that it would be difficult to have an intact greyhound puppy placed with me in a house that isn't fenced and houses, currently, two intact dogs?

[Hubcitypam]

Am I wrong to think there are sport oriented breeders (maybe versatile would be a better word than sport), coursing/hunting/racing breeders and also conformation breeders with pets being produced from all? I know that's how it typically works in most breeds even if the "splits" are less extreme than in others.

In greyhounds there are pretty much AKC conformation breeders or NGA breeders.

 

I guess some dogs that could be said to have come from hunting/racing/coursing breeders but in greyhounds these are generally unregistered coyote hunting dogs more akin to back yard bred dogs.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Hubcitypam

[Guest Lindsey]

In greyhounds there are pretty much getting conformation breeders or NGA dogs.

 

I guess some dogs that could be said to have come from hunting/racing/coursing breeders but in greyhounds these are generally unregistered coyote hunting dogs more akin to back yard bred dogs.

 

I've been keeping an eye on hunting "breeders" for a few years now but I find more lurchers and longdogs. Which I'm not opposed to, but the unpredictability is not what I'm looking for at this time.

 

I've got to say, while I haven't been looking around long now, I've already seen/read about a few different breeders that seem to focus more on versatility, sport, coursing or pet than conformation. I'm not a fan of the look of most heavily bred conformation dogs so I'll be mostly avoiding those which I figure will limit me but not as much as you guys seem to be implying.

[krissn333]

The reason you're being met with a bit of opposition is that this is a greyhounds as PETS board (mainly), so, a very large percentage of the dogs here are spayed or neutered and are retired racers.

 

I see no reason to have an intact animal unless you plan to show for conformation or to breed.

 

Getting a greyhound mix from a hunting "breeder" does nothing but encourage those people to continue to breed dogs without giving any thought to acceptable breeding practices.

 

PrairieProf was not being "rude," simply pointing out that there's no shortage of greyhounds needing homes out there, and they are available at all ages, all sizes, all personalities. Unlike other breeds, greyhounds really don't vary much temperament-wise. Many groups adopt to people that do not have fenced-in yards, provided that you agree to respect the 3,000 years of breeding behind the dog's genes and keep the dog leashed when not in an enclosed area or in the house for the dog's safety. So really, if you'd just bend on the no spaying or neutering thing (which, honestly, what's the big deal there? You're not going to breed the dog, and dogs who are spayed or neutered are still allowed to participate in lure coursing, agility, etc.), you could have yourself a very nice young greyhound from a group that's right in your backyard.

[Guest greytgrandma]

how will you keep all these unaltered dogs apart? Kennnels?

[Guest Lindsey]

The reason you're being met with a bit of opposition is that this is a greyhounds as PETS board (mainly), so, a very large percentage of the dogs here are spayed or neutered and are retired racers.

 

I see no reason to have an intact animal unless you plan to show for conformation or to breed.

 

Getting a greyhound mix from a hunting "breeder" does nothing but encourage those people to continue to breed dogs without giving any thought to acceptable breeding practices.

 

PrairieProf was not being "rude," simply pointing out that there's no shortage of greyhounds needing homes out there, and they are available at all ages, all sizes, all personalities. Unlike other breeds, greyhounds really don't vary much temperament-wise. Many groups adopt to people that do not have fenced-in yards, provided that you agree to respect the 3,000 years of breeding behind the dog's genes and keep the dog leashed when not in an enclosed area or in the house for the dog's safety. So really, if you'd just bend on the no spaying or neutering thing (which, honestly, what's the big deal there? You're not going to breed the dog, and dogs who are spayed or neutered are still allowed to participate in lure coursing, agility, etc.), you could have yourself a very nice young greyhound from a group that's right in your backyard.

 

I'm not going to be getting a hunting mix, I just said I wasn't opposed to it. The same way I'm not opposed to sport mixes either.

 

I did not know that this was a forum for only those who have rescue greyhounds, if people looking into breeders aren't welcome then I will gladly take my leave as it seems we don't mesh well. I'm not used to communities so divided between breeders and rescuers, most I know work in harmony along side eachother.

 

That's fine that you see no reason to have an intact animal unless you are showing or breeding, many people don't. I disagree and would sooner build a fence around my property than alter a dog of mine or own an altered dog. So no, I will not bend on my no altered dog stance especially since it would be done to a puppy seeing as I'm looking for a pup and that's even more detrimental to a dogs health, even more so for a larger breed dog that I plan to do sports with.

how will you keep all these unaltered dogs apart? Kennnels?

 

I won't keep them apart unless my female is in heat. They are kept apart when unsupervised and when she's in heat and fertile they will be separated by two crates, two doors and a gate.

 

ETA: I didn't mean to cause a stir or drama of any sort. I seriously didn't know that going to a breeder was considered taboo here or I wouldn't have ever joined. I was just looking for a place to do research and learn but I am seeing that even though I'm sure this place has a wealth of knowledge I won't be well accepted.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Lindsey

[Hubcitypam]

I've been keeping an eye on hunting "breeders" for a few years now but I find more lurchers and longdogs. Which I'm not opposed to, but the unpredictability is not what I'm looking for at this time.

 

I've got to say, while I haven't been looking around long now, I've already seen/read about a few different breeders that seem to focus more on versatility, sport, coursing or pet than conformation. I'm not a fan of the look of most heavily bred conformation dogs so I'll be mostly avoiding those which I figure will limit me but not as much as you guys seem to be implying.

There a purebred greyhounds available from hunters. This I know but have no idea why you'd want one. I've dealt with quite a few of those guys over the years that wanted to adopt intact NGA greys to breed for coyote dogs. Those guys were not the sharpest pencils in the box by and large and I wouldn't think they were breeding for anything but money.

 

There are AKC conformation breeders that subscribe to "form and function" with emphisis on agility and lure coursing but not too many. I happen to know a couple of them and have asked one to come here if she'd care to...I think she is still a member. I have friends that have intact show dogs of various breeds and keep them apart successfully. Some adoption groups will adopt to homes with intact show dogs. If your dogs are of excellent breeding lines and you explain the situation a group *might* make an exception.

 

As far as no fenced yard, many groups adopt to people without fenced yards, but your case might be a problem. You've got two seemingly high energy dogs that appear to need a lot of exercise and stimulation. Greyhounds aren't bred for 10 mile run/hikes. That would honestly be my concern - how you're going wear down the Koolies without exhausting the greyhound.

[Guest greytgrandma]

Im sure there are people here that can guide you to a good AKC breeder . But I would think good AKC breeder would require a hound sold as a pet should be spayed or nutered .

[Hubcitypam]

I was going to say that most breeders want the dogs they pet out neutered at some point. They aren't crazy about their bloodlines floating around to be used for coyote dogs or backyard breeding. I think many are willing to wait until 18 months or later after the growth plates close.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Hubcitypam

[Guest Lindsey]

There a purebred greyhounds available from hunters. This I know but have no idea why you'd want one. I've dealt with quite a few of those guys over the years that wanted to adopt intact NGA greys to breed for coyote dogs. Those guys were not the sharpest pencils in the box by and large and I wouldn't think they were breeding for anything but money.

 

There are AKC conformation breeders that subscribe to "form and function" with emphisis on agility and lure coursing but not too many. I happen to know a couple of them and have asked one to come here if she'd care to...I think she is still a member. I have friends that have intact show dogs of various breeds and keep them apart successfully. Some adoption groups will adopt to homes with intact show dogs. If your dogs are of excellent breeding lines and you explain the situation a group *might* make an exception.

 

As far as no fenced yard, many groups adopt to people without fenced yards, but your case might be a problem. You've got two seemingly high energy dogs that appear to need a lot of exercise and stimulation. Greyhounds aren't bred for 10 mile run/hikes. That would honestly be my concern - how you're going wear down the Koolies without exhausting the greyhound.

 

Thank you very much for this post!

 

I know exactly what you mean about the hunters overall, though I know a few that while their communication online is less than stellar they have so much knowledge and experience to share. But, the few I know tend to work more with crosses and hog dogs. This is why I'm looking towards, well I guess you guys would call it AKC breeders. Always amazing how you look into a new breed and have to learn new lingo

 

Though, my intact dogs aren't show dogs. They're straight off a ranch working bred dogs. Koolies aren't a show breed, bred for work and starting to show up more in sports. But, it's very nice to hear that you do know some groups that will bend on that. But, I would still prefer to keep any dog I get intact which is where I think the main problem will come from.

 

I take my dogs out typically separately for exercise. I like the one on one time and it allows me to change what we do depending on the dog. Didgie's a baby still so she can't do hard biking so I'll take her for an off leash hike one day and then take Traveler for a bikejoring run later and so on. It would be no different with a greyhound, figure out his needs and adjust to them.

 

Im sure there are people here that can guide you to a good AKC breeder . But I would think good AKC breeder would require a hound sold as a pet should be spayed or nutered .

 

Yes, I do know a lot of breeders have spay/neuter contracts but it has also been my experience they tend towards being more open to discussing it and if they aren't I move on.

[krissn333]

I was going to say that most breeders want the dogs they pet out neutered at some point. They aren't crazy about their bloodlines floating around to be used for coyote dogs or backyard breeding. I think many are willing to wait until 18 months or later after the growth plates close.

What Pam said.

 

So, if you could wait until 18 months to spay or neuter the dog (so the growth plates are closed), you wouldn't? What is the point of having an intact dog if you are not breeding or showing?

 

Retired racers can flunk out of schooling at the age of 18 months - my first greyhound did. The nice thing about greyhounds is that they "grow up" pretty slowly, so, at 18 months they're very trainable, but also very well muscled. Ideal for performance, really. So, at 18 months the growth plates are closed, you get the dog spayed or neutered, and you have a nice pet that you can do performance with if that's what you're looking for. At nearly age 12 now my little baby greyhound is gray in the face, but still shows up greyhounds that are 2 and 3 years old. She was well muscled when I got her at 18 months and is STILL well muscled because I've taken good care of her. She could easily do lure coursing and still kick some @$$.

[Guest greytgrandma]

please do look around at the other topics on this site. Lots of good info on lots of topics. Not to mention the cute & funny topic :-)