Legs Has Dilated Cardiomyopathy

[tbhounds]

Pretty quickly.............................what was the TSH result and were there any antibodies?

She's getting the results e-mailed. For the record antibodies do not need to be present to be hypothyroid. I have a shinning example sleeping right next to me :-)

Edited October 2, 2012 by tbhounds

[RileysLegacy]

I asked my vet office to email me the full results, but did not get it yet. For now, he's on 1200 mcg levothyroxine a day. Does this sound right?

So your giving 600mcg (0.6mgs) twice daily?

Yes. I will call my vet at 9am when they open & hopefully get them to email the results this morning. They must have been busy yesterday.

[greyhead]

To address your dosage question, Dr. Stack recommends .1 mg per each 20 lbs. of weight, I believe, which is half what non-sighthounds would get. But it's an individual thing. Spencer started at .6 (twice a day) also, when he was 5 years old and about 83 lbs. Later he went to .5 mg. And now that he's almost 12, he's at .25. So unless your boy is significantly smaller, .6 should be okay for now.

 

Sure hope his symptoms subside, and quickly!

[RileysLegacy]

Legs weighed 67 lbs last week, so it seems like a large dose?

 

I have the results, the only things low are TT4, TT3 and FT4. Everything else normal. I don't see cTSH?

[JJNg]

That dose is standard for other breeds of dogs. Some recommend starting with 1/2 that for greyhounds, but that dose will be ok for now. Not sure what kinds of symptoms you're seeing, but if they are due to low thyroid, you should see a pretty obvious improvement. Signs like a low activity level often improve dramatically within days of starting medication. Other signs like hairloss can take a few weeks to a few months to resolve. If you don't see much change after he's been on supplement for a few months, then he probably isn't hypothyroid.

 

The cTSH (canine thyroid stimulating hormone) test is an important one to run to confirm whether any dog, but especially a greyhound, is hypothyroid. TSH is the hormone that the pituitary gland in the brain releases to tell the thyroid glands to produce more thyroid hormone. So if the thyroid glands are not functioning properly and thyroid levels are too low, the brain will release more TSH to try to stimulate production. In most truly hypothyroid dogs, the TSH level will be high. About 20% of hypothyroid dogs can have a normal TSH level, so the test is not 100% accurate, but a very important piece of the puzzle. If your vet didn't initially include this test, they may still be able to call MSU and see if they have enough sample left over to add on a TSH level.

 

It is especially important in greyhounds because greyhounds have been shown to naturally have lower TT4 (total T4) and FT4 (free T4) levels than other breeds. In some cases, greyhounds that are completely normal can have virtually undetectable TT4 and FT4 levels. Here's a good reference about greyhounds and hypothyroidism.

[RileysLegacy]

Thank you Jennifer! TSH is within normal range. His symptoms include extreme reaction/intolerance to heat & exercise (by far the most concerning as recently he will almost completely collapse after what seems to be minimal exertion), back end weakness, major baldness including a "rat tail", and constant skin infections. The latest skin issue has not been resolved despite a round of antibiotics & receiving cold laser treatments. I'm sooo hoping to see improvement.

Edited October 3, 2012 by RileysLegacy

[RileysLegacy]

So this is Legs' leg tonight despite every intervention I can think of. He just keeps licking it no matter what I do. If I cover the area, he licks another spot. Any advice re: cone or muzzle I can put on him while I'm not home & at night? What is the least invasive to him? He's such a sweet sweet boy I hate the thought of him sitting home all day miserable but this can't continue. :(

 

Edited October 4, 2012 by RileysLegacy

[duncan41]

Those sores look very familiar - could be my girl. Muzzle with a stool cup is mandatory when you aren't in a position to be within ear shot of Legs to hear him licking, or if he's a stealth licker, you will have to be where you can see him all the time. If not, muzzle. I have had some success with Zymox spray- it has anti-bacterial properties and 1% hydrocortisone to encourage healing. I only use it every couple of days, but find that my girl's sores do better if they are "dry" - not treated with lotions or salves. On days that I don't use Zymox, I soak the sores with wet, white washcloths. There's something about the dried Zymox that must create a pulling or itching sensation while encouraging the healing process that triggers the urge to lick. No need to go overboard with treatment. In fact, since his sores are so raw, less is more at this point. Just keep them clean - irrigating with plain water is good.

 

I sure hope Legs feel better soon.

[Meandmy]

Lucy, I thought I'd throw out a thought about the licking, if it's been going on for a while. When Shadow had major surgery on his leg he kept the incision open for months because of the licking. He wore sweatpants but would lick them and irritate the sores, we tried a muzzle with stool guard but he would keep pushing the muzzle into the sore and licking the inside of the muzzle - enough to irritate both his tongue and the sores. Every time we made progress in healing he would find a way to open it up. Finally we tried a brief stint of an antianxiety med and *poof* the licking stopped. We only kept him on it for about 3 weeks - just long enough to break the cycle of licking.

 

If the sores are only staying open because of the licking, it might be something to look into.

[Newgreymom]

I would try some anxiety meds also. Maybe just long enough to break the cycle.

[RileysLegacy]

Those sores look very familiar - could be my girl. Muzzle with a stool cup is mandatory when you aren't in a position to be within ear shot of Legs to hear him licking, or if he's a stealth licker, you will have to be where you can see him all the time. If not, muzzle. I have had some success with Zymox spray- it has anti-bacterial properties and 1% hydrocortisone to encourage healing. I only use it every couple of days, but find that my girl's sores do better if they are "dry" - not treated with lotions or salves. On days that I don't use Zymox, I soak the sores with wet, white washcloths. There's something about the dried Zymox that must create a pulling or itching sensation while encouraging the healing process that triggers the urge to lick. No need to go overboard with treatment. In fact, since his sores are so raw, less is more at this point. Just keep them clean - irrigating with plain water is good.

 

I sure hope Legs feel better soon.

Thank you, I actually just got the Zymox in the mail. I thought it was helping but then came home to that yesterday I think you may be right about it being better dry, I will use it less frequently & see if that makes a difference.

 

Lucy, I thought I'd throw out a thought about the licking, if it's been going on for a while. When Shadow had major surgery on his leg he kept the incision open for months because of the licking. He wore sweatpants but would lick them and irritate the sores, we tried a muzzle with stool guard but he would keep pushing the muzzle into the sore and licking the inside of the muzzle - enough to irritate both his tongue and the sores. Every time we made progress in healing he would find a way to open it up. Finally we tried a brief stint of an antianxiety med and *poof* the licking stopped. We only kept him on it for about 3 weeks - just long enough to break the cycle of licking.

 

If the sores are only staying open because of the licking, it might be something to look into.

ugh that's awful. I certainly don't want to go down that route. I was just about to order a muzzle, now I'm not sure if I even want to try it. I'm going to email my vet & ask about anti-anxiety meds. Legs does not appear anxious at all, but I guess the licking is a symptom?

 

I would try some anxiety meds also. Maybe just long enough to break the cycle.

ok, thanks for the suggestion. I'll see what my vet thinks. I really appreciate all of your help!!

[Meandmy]

Shadow wasn't a nervous dog, either. It was the one and only time he needed them. I resisted my vet's suggestion for a long time because he didn't seem stressed to me, but the change was almost overnight when he started the meds. He explained that they get into this habitual cycle (apparently it's pretty common in horses, too) and for some reason the meds help them break the habit.

[JJNg]

Can you provide more history on what's going on with his leg? I'm assuming this is the most recent skin infection you referred to? What other skin issues has he had? I'm wondering if there's more going on, as skin issues like that aren't really typical of hypothyroidism. But then, not all dogs present in the typical fashion...

[RileysLegacy]

Sure. He's always had various small skin issues since I adopted him 2 years ago... it seems like b/c he is so bald, any little thing will cause a small cut or scrape, then he licks, and it turns into something more. Or he will bite at a spot on his back that will turn into a sore. This most recent skin issue started b/c he cut the webbing between his toes. I wrapped it and b/c he couldn't get to the toe to lick, he started licking above the wrap. This was a good month ago, and it just keep getting worse. It will look like it's healing for a day or two, but then he'll lick again and it's even worse than before. As I mentioned earlier, he was on Clavamox and got cold laser treatments on it a few weeks back. I ended up wrapping his whole damn leg yesterday before I left for work b/c I didn't know what else to do. I know that is not a good solution though b/c he will end up just licking elsewhere. Thankfully it's almost a 3 day weekend where I can keep a close eye on him and hopefully make some progress towards healing.

 

I am starting to think we are on the wrong track What are the types of skin issues that you'd typically see in a hypothyroid dog?

 

I'm going to take him to the park this weekend to see if his stamina/ability to withstand exercise has improved at all after a week on thyroid meds. We went for our usual 2.5 mile walk last night & he was ok but it was after dark.

[greyhead]

It's possible that the skin thing is entirely separate from the thyroid thing. It's tempting to think that all symptoms are manifestations of one problem, but sometimes there are two problems.

[Newgreymom]

Could it possibly be lick granulomas? Our Dalmatian had a sore and licked above the wrap until it was bloody raw.

[greypuppyluv]

Is he on the generic Soloxine or the brand name? Tinsel did much better when she was on the brand name than when we had her on the generic, and I've known a few other dogs that were the same way.

[tbhounds]

Without the tsh being elevated the chance that Legs is hypothyroid is slim. Has the vet considered spinal issues--back leg pain, numbness etc.....

[greyhead]

Has infection been considered? (Even if it didn't start out with infection, it can end up that way once the skin has been exposed like that.)

[RileysLegacy]

Yup, everything is being considered. Thanks all. I talked w/ my vet & we are going to continue the thyroid meds for a month & re-evaluate. Not sure what to do about his sores. She didn't think anti-anxiety meds were necessary at this point & suggested rescue remedy, but I haven't had much success w/ it in the past. I'm feeling pretty bummed right now but I will get to the bottom of his health issues somehow...

[tbhounds]

Have you seen a derm vet?

[Guest suesmom]

My Sue is also on 0.6 twice a day. She get sores that look like that pretty often. The most soothing remedy I have found is a warm compress of a black tea bag (regular Lipton works fine.) From what I understand. it is the tannins in the black tea that help to dry up the wet sore. It is the only treatment that doesn't seem to hurt. I use antibiotic sprays and natural sprays as well, but she will pull away, so I know they sting. If I use the tea bag at night, she will be scabbed up by morning. Of course, she will fuss at it again, but using the tea bags 2 or 3 times a day really seems to improve the sores.

[JJNg]

The only possible connection with the skin issues that I can think of is that hypothyroidism can lower the immune system, predisposing to infection and delaying healing. But it wouldn't explain why he develops the skin problems to begin with. If his skin issues are related to hypothyroidism, you should be able to tell after a couple months on medication. If no improvement, then you'll have to regroup and consider other possibilities. I'd second the recommendation to see a vet dermatologist if you have that option.

[RileysLegacy]

The only possible connection with the skin issues that I can think of is that hypothyroidism can lower the immune system, predisposing to infection and delaying healing. But it wouldn't explain why he develops the skin problems to begin with. If his skin issues are related to hypothyroidism, you should be able to tell after a couple months on medication. If no improvement, then you'll have to regroup and consider other possibilities. I'd second the recommendation to see a vet dermatologist if you have that option.

This is basically what my vet said. What happens is he gets a lot of cuts/scrapes/bug bites/irritation because is sooo bald & has such thin skin. Then he licks & causes sores. If he is hypothyroid his immune system may not be able to heal properly which causes this vicious cycle. I don't know if we have any veterinary derms here, but I will look into it.

 

Thanks again everyone!

[Guest suesmom]

Sue's coat has gotten much thicker since I've been giving her an anti-bacterial anti-fungal bath from the vet every week or so. She gets staph infections on her skin a lot, and I feel like it's exactly what was described above, she just can't fight the infections as well as other dogs. She's been to a dermatologist who didn't see anything, she thought maybe the hair loss was from allergies. I think it's staph-related. The hair can come out in little tufts, just like a description of staph. You might want to give some anti-bacterial baths a try too. It sounds like our pups are very similar.

 

The last round of hotspots, I did have her go on a 3-week treatment of Simplicef, since we were going away, and I didn't want to leave her at the dogsitter with a big open wound. She's almost cleared up now, but it takes a long time.