Help-Serious Problem

[Guest saabqueen7]

HELP! I need advice. We brought home our new greyhound. It was a two day drive. He is sweet, seems intelligent, very good with people and other big dogs. However, on the way home, twice he lunged at a small child who was just walking nearby. He goes berserk when he sees moving small dogs. And when I took him to a dog park here at home, he was great with the other dogs. I kept him muzzled and on leash for the first 10 minutes, then off leash but muzzle on. No aggression, quiet and calm. Then a lady brought a cockapoo in. He didnt pay much attention. It started to run and in a flash he tried to kill it. Not just play, but really kill it. People were screaming, I and a friend were trying to calmly separate them but the owner was in hysterics and pulled his muzzle off. I thought that was the end, but we managed to pull him away and I got the muzzle back on.

Here's my question. Should I take him back? I was told he was not aggressive and cat tolerant, and just interested in small dogs but not aggressive to them. I have cats I intend to introduce over the next week or so, very carefully. Is it any use? Can I ever trust a dog with this strong a prey drive or is this pretty normal?

[macoduck]

Way too soon for a dog park.

Unless you don't have a fenced yard, leash walk him. If any children run up and want to pet him tell them no. Explain he's not used to children yet.

Call your adoption group for more guidance.

Edited April 16, 2012 by macoduck

[GeorgeofNE]

You said in another thread that you've had Greyhounds before, so I will try not to talk to you like you're a newbie--but you don't know this dog, he doesn't know you, it was way, way, way too soon to take him to a dog park.

 

You're very lucky no one (including your dog) was injured.

 

This dog has NEVER had any of the experiences he's gone through since you picked him up. You can't just expect him to be good to go as if he's already acclimated to pet life, home life, and you!

 

I would not even consider going back to a dog park for months. You need to train him, he needs to know and trust you, and you need to know a LOT more about him before you do.

 

For what it's worth, indoor cats are very different from a small white fluffy dog running in a park. You cannot assume he won't be OK with your cats based on the dog park reaction.

 

Good luck!

 

 

 

[christinepi]

What would be the biggest concern for me is his lunging twice at a child. That could be serious trouble. I also would not take him back to the dog park any time soon, until you were able to really assess and address what's going on. The prey drive as such can be reasonably managed (as in not exposing him to small dogs, whenever possible), I imagine. As to "normal"? I think it varies greatly from one individual to the next. My grey doesn't even look at cats we encounter on our walks.

 

I also wonder about the adoption agency and their description of your grey.

 

There are far more experienced forum members than me who will chime in.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Prey drive outside with fluffy targets and cats inside are two different things. BUT, you still need to use caution when introducing your hound to your household cat. If your cat is an outdoor cat, it will be dead if the hound is allowed outside with it, just to warn you. You see, greyhounds see animals outside their house as prey typically, and animals inside their "den" (see your house) as part of their pack.

 

Until last year when I had to put down both of my elderly cats, I was a household that would cat test greyhounds, as well as foster greyhounds and cats. You have to know the personality of your cat. There are three basic cats, the rabbit (freezes and darts away when in visual range of the greyhound - this is the most difficult situation), the fighter (likes to "get it on" whenever the dog is near - this is the BEST combination), or the nevermind (cat couldnt care less if the dog is around or not - easy to coexist). Depending on your cats reaction, your introduction and any behavior modification training needed will be based on your cats reaction mainly.

 

The red flags to watch for when introducing:

1) ears perked up

2) puffing of cheeks, uncontrollable whining and or drooling

3) lunging spitting and air snapping

4) inability to break the dogs stare of cat

5) hunting the cat when the cat leaves the room

 

If you have a combination of these behaviors, you may have some issues. It is not impossible to fix, but very time consuming and you must dedicate a lot of time to desensitize.

 

Normal reaction is interest, especially if the cat runs or makes noise such as growling and or hissing. You need to keep a muzzle on your hound AT ALL TIMES when the hound is not in a crate in the house, regardless of if the dog is awake or asleep. Realize that a muzzle will not totally protect your cat and should your hound corner your cat, it can be seriously injured with a muzzle on the dog.

 

Typically when I introduce a foster I have two people. The hound is muzzled and leashed. One person holds the leash and talks to the hound and keeps the dogs attention. Another person brings the cat into the room on the opposite side and does NOT let the cat go. You also do not stand up and hold the cat above the dogs eye line, this encourages the dog to grab what is in your hands. Once the person is sitting on the floor opposite side of room with the cat calmly in lap, then let the dog see the cat. Allow the dog to investigate the cat. Watch for the above behavior. If at any time you think the dog is getting to worked up, simply remove the dog from the room. Out of control would be what I have above, if the hound sniffs and sniffs, maybe even whines a bit, this is nothing to worry about. Watch for paws pouncing on the cat, watch for ears perked up, watch for things that seem the dog is fixated on the cat and cannot be distracted.

 

I dont know if you have a group close to you (wonder since you say you drove two days to pick up the hound), but having someone near that can be with you during the first few encounters can be invaluable in your situation. I know the first few days I had my first hound and cats was nerve racking. Be sure to have baby gates around the house in strategic locations such as hallways that are 6" above the floor. This serves as an escape route for the cat where the dog cannot follow. Also, pull furnature away from the wall a few inches so the cat can sneak behind the furnature if needed. I also would put the dog in the crate and allow the cat to roam around for a few hours, then switch and put the cat into a room with the door closed and let the hound roam without a muzzle on. As I said, muzzle at all times if they are out together, even if you are sleeping at night. Things can happen in the blink of an eye.

 

Chad

[Trihounds]

Agree with the above.

 

Just give him more time in more controlled environments. Introduce him to pet hood gradually and the dog you have today *likely* won't be the same dog you'll have in a few months. He needs more time to get used to his surroundings. What happened at the dog park is like taking a child to a candy store and saying 'have whatever you want'. What will help a child is going to the candy store with a $2 budget. You need to reign the boy in first.

[Guest BlueCrab]

You'll hear from others pretty soon, I imagine, but a couple of observations: you don't say how long you've had your dog other than to mention a "two day drive".

 

There is a "getting acquainted" period when you should be getting accustomed to your new dog and him to you. Dog park time probably should not be coming anywhere into play early in this relationship - not until you have developed an understanding of your hound and how he operates around other dogs. You should also have a firmly established recall with your dog before any off-leash time starts.

 

Phrases like "cat tolerant" and "small dog interested" need to be further understood by you, before you ever go out into the big world and overwhelm him with all of the sights / smells / excitement of someplace like a dog park. See previous mention of strong recall and understanding how your hound operates first. And even the best cat tolerant hound may be completely different outside your home: my grey sleeps with two cats draped all over her. But any stray kitty or loose squirrel in our yard is a completely different thing and I would fully expect her instinct to take over.

 

Introduction to your cats, in your home, should certainly be done. But you need to have your dog leashed at the time and allow plenty of time for everyone to get acquainted and develope an understanding. You will need to allow the cats a safe escape where the dog cannot go and you'll need to monitor the situation to maintain your role as the boss in the whole thing. A verbal "ah-ah" or "no" should suffice in teaching the dog to leave the cat be. If the dog is REALLY into the cat, then you'll need to be vigilant. Ours went quite smoothly; others here should be able to share valuable cat-into experience.

 

Any dog park that allows big dogs and cockapoos in the same run should be off limits. Even the best behaved grey can hurt a small dog just by playing. Plenty of dog parks segregate large and small dogs - if you want to use a dog park, you should try to find one that does, or else go at a time when you can be fairly alone with your hound and the small dogs aren't present.

 

Personally I won't do dog parks: too much mayhem and too many ill-behaved dogs at our local parks. Some here love them and some here do not - you'll hear both sides. But one thing you will hear is that either everyone wears muzzles or no one wears muzzles. If your dog is the only one wearing a muzzle, he's at a disadvantage to the ones who aren't if things get testy. Your local rescue may have a greyhound-only meetup or play date that you can take your hound to where all dogs wear muzzles and it's only greys. May be worth looking into.

[Guest greytkidsmom]

Everyone else already said what I was thinking - get in touch with your group and spend time getting to know the dog before putting him into another stressful situation.

 

Regarding my personal experience with prey drive - Our first grey was a very high prey grey. We knew that from the start. We respect that and never trust her with anything small. That said, with time and training she has learned "leave it" when we pass another dog on walks as a way to redirect her focus from the other animal to me and the walk. We have a fenced yard and she gets plenty of exercise with her fribee there. We muzzle her when we are in "mixed company" not because she is aggressive but for her safety and other animals' safety. I would never want to risk an incident that would result in harm to another animal. I was disappointed at first that we couldn't do "dog things" like go to the park, go to family outings where other dogs were, etc but if I had returned her I would have lost my heart dog. She snuggles with me when I sleep, cuddles in my lap on the couch, and works as a therapy dog in a hospital where we know we won't encounter other dogs.

Edited April 16, 2012 by greytkidsmom

[Guest saabqueen7]

I appreciate all the advice. I have never used a dog park before, but I was introduced to him in one, no one said anything about not using it and it never occurred to me.

I have contacted a respected trainer in my area who works with greyhounds and we are meeting to discuss the whole thing. Although the small dog/cat issue is very important to me and I was very clear about that with the agency, the big thing to me and the trainer is the unprovoked lunging and "hunting" of the children. The consequences to a child and to me could be huge and I am not sure if I can handle the stress of never being completely sure.

[Brandiandwe]

I have a high prey drive (there are a few other threads about this) and I will never trust her with any other small dog. That said, it has taken six months and I am now beginning to be able to redirect her attention towards me and away from the others and at obedience classes she now shows only minimal interest in the others. However, as soon as she gets tired or stressed, it's back to fixation. And we had the real deal. She was also described as small fluffy safe. Having got to know her, I now understand that her 'go to' behaviour when faced with something new is to shut down and go through the motions, which I suspect is how she got through assessment - it's hard to pick because it is very subtle, but she just 'goes away'. Regardless, she is never likely to be unmuzzled, and we only ever go to dog parks with other greys. Too hard else. Anything small, fluffy and running (or big and running) and she wants to take off. That will never change. And cats will always be a problem. We are working on that but its the dogs which are the bigger issue.

 

My other one was also a lunger. In her case, it was because she assumed that everyone wanted to be her friend so she would give everyone we passed, smiling. Sadly, what people saw was a very big brindle dog who is muzzled lunging at them with teeth bared. She did this with children too. We kept her on a short leash, asked her to wait or keep walking, and if the people wanted to say hello, we had them come to her. She (and PK) are now fine around children and people generally, and will stand quietly to be thoroughly examined. It has taken time, and it will take longer. I feel like it won't be for another 18 months or so before I really know my dogs properly.

 

Edited to add: just saw your update. Hunting small children is a concern. Both of mine watch small children and people running with intense interest. But once they realise that child = 'a small human'they seem to relax about it. Of course, people doing wind sprints at the oval, playing ball or doing any ind of track and field is endlessly fascinating - they don't seem to understand why people 'keep on' running - why not just run really quicklly and then stop? YMMV.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Brandiandwe

[JohnF]

WAY too soon set loose in a dog park. I wait at least 6 weeks and get them used to me and other people and their dogs on leads (muzzled for the first 3 weeks too).

But go by your gut feeling (you'll come back around to it after a lot of palaver anyway). You're not going to train out a high prey drive and lunging at a kid is unacceptable.

Talk to your rescue group and consider rehoming before both you and the dog get bonded. I sent a prey-drive dog back once and she found a forever home in the country that very same week - a place that didn't need to have a dog running loose in some park where there are kids and tiny dogs.

[macoduck]

Could you describe the behavior of the children when he did the lunging? Were they quiet or screaming or making typical playful squeals? Were they running?

Not trying to blame the kids, just trying to get an idea of what may have stimulated him.

[Guest saabqueen7]

In both cases, the child was simply walking by. Not bouncing or waving arms or chattering or anything. In addition, I just had him in the back yard after he ate, standing with him at the gate. My neighbor came over and we were talking about him and these issues. He has a 3 year old daughter. The wife and daughter drove up and parked out of sight of us. I heard the little girl speak and Finn started doing his "warn" bark and was not wagging his tail- very focused. I asked them to come around into his sight. They stood quietly, not talking or moving around. He focused even tighter, barked and began growling. I worked to redirect his attention, praising him every second that he looked away, but he was persistent. I finally asked them to leave and took him into the house. I don't think this is a good sign at all.

[Trihounds]

Is there a chance he was still thinking he had food left to eat?

[Guest happygrey]

I'm not sure a dog trainer that isn't well versed with greyhounds will be a lot of help.

 

It sounds to me like your new hound is overwhelmed with all that he's been exposed to. Please don't take him back to a dog park -- he cannot run around with other dogs, especially small ones.

 

Please don't expose him to any more children right now either.

 

What is his history? Was he fostered? Has he been off the track long? Have you been in touch with the group you adopted him from? (Did you adopt him from a group?). These are all behaviors they will want to know about.

 

Sounds to me like he needs a much slower pace to get accustomed to his new life. If you have serious concerns about this match, I would contact the group and strongly consider returning him.

 

ETA: I'm not sure it's a good idea to introduce the cats for a little while. Can you hold off?

Edited April 17, 2012 by happygrey

[Guest saabqueen7]

He was not eating or around food in any of these instances.

I have no intention of introducing him to the cats. They are shut away in a back room right now. No visual contact in any way.

I adopted from a small private group with a good reputation. He came from the track into their kennel, not fostered. I informed them of the first instance of reacting to a child that evening when they called to check on us. I have since sent an email telling about all the rest and will talk to them after I talk to the trainer.

The trainer I have contacted is recommended by the greyhound adoption groups in my area and is quite experienced with them.

[Guest Roadtripper]

Hi, just wanted to say that I think you're responding to the situation in the right way, and I can understand that if you met him in a dogpark, you'd think taking him to a dogpark would be perfectly fine. So sorry you're having to go through this with your new pup, and I know that you must be feeling alarmed & worried & wondering what's best for both your family & your new grey. I hope that the adoption group & trainer are able to help.

 

As many have said, it takes patience, time, and work. Introduce him to new things gradually, and work on the concerns one or two at a time (the kid thing first, of course!).

 

When I adopted my grey mix, Boojum, I was told that he was dog-friendly & in fact he had been kenneled with another dog at the shelter. I found out on our first walk together that he very much was NOT dog-friendly & he lunged at any dog he could see, even if they were a block away. Stupidly thinking it was just a leash issue & still trusting what I'd been told by the adoption group, I took Booj to a dog park, and he came pretty close to getting into a fight--we left within 10 minutes.

 

It took me about 4 years (I've had him for 7 now) of learning what triggers he had and of him learning to trust me. Obedience classes and structured walks helped tremendously. Now he rarely reacts to another dog, and he listens to me when I redirect him. But I still never take him to dogparks--I trust him, but there's no telling what other dogs will do--are they aggressive, sick, vaccinated? Even if small dogs are segregated, you'll still have the stupid owners who let their little ones into the big dog area with the thought that their fluffy likes big dogs better. I like doggie daycare better, where the dogs are screened for vaccinations & temperment, segregated by size, and play is monitored.

 

Even though it took a long time & was very frustrating at times, especially early on, it has been SO worth it! I can't believe how much of a bond we have now. He's my baby boy!

 

Wishing you the best,

Amy, Boojum, & Cairo

[Guest azlorenz]

Our second grey Jeffrey had an exceptional prey drive. Just want to applaud you for contacting a trainer and give you some moral support.

[Guest saabqueen7]

Thanks so much. I am pretty much devastated by this. It was so unexpected and I am really not sure I am equipped to handle it. I'm afraid, as sweet as he is otherwise, I just don't have what it takes to deal with a dog with these kind of issues, especially when I specifically said these were issues I did not want to deal with. I know my limitations and tried to be sure I stayed within them. I'm meeting with the trainer tomorrow for her to evaluate him and we shall see. But her preliminary assessment is that I need to take him back. I am frankly so grieved and sad, and also a little humiliated at not being able to cope with this and am afraid the adoption people will make me feel even worse. I hope not. I have looked forward to this for so long and it's such a nightmare. I'm not sure I will have the courage or trust to try again. Maybe someday. Y'all have been great and very kind. I appreciate all the good advice.

[Guest happygrey]

Just want to say that I'm really sorry things have not worked out well. But if you really want a grey, please don't give up! I'm sure the right match is out there.

 

Since you've already had good luck with greys that have been fostered before coming home that may be the route to take if you decide to return him and try another dog.

 

Best wishes.

[Gryffenne]

Thanks so much. I am pretty much devastated by this. It was so unexpected and I am really not sure I am equipped to handle it. I'm afraid, as sweet as he is otherwise, I just don't have what it takes to deal with a dog with these kind of issues, especially when I specifically said these were issues I did not want to deal with. I know my limitations and tried to be sure I stayed within them. I'm meeting with the trainer tomorrow for her to evaluate him and we shall see. But her preliminary assessment is that I need to take him back. I am frankly so grieved and sad, and also a little humiliated at not being able to cope with this and am afraid the adoption people will make me feel even worse. I hope not. I have looked forward to this for so long and it's such a nightmare. I'm not sure I will have the courage or trust to try again. Maybe someday. Y'all have been great and very kind. I appreciate all the good advice.

Don't be too hard on yourself. You know your limitations, you expressed them to that group and they (possibly) still sent you home with a hound out of your league and may not be a fit in your household. Not your fault in any way, shape or form. It would fall on them.

 

Don't let them (or anyone else) try to place the blame or guilt onto you over this. Talk it over with the trainer and see what they say.

[Guest PhillyPups]

The whole world is new to him. Patience and time produce miracles with our fresh off the track hounds. A lot of hounds are exposed to kids in the kennels, and a lot are not. He may not even know what a child is. I was told Gizmo was not good on the farm with the kids, but at home and settled in, he is fine. He does lunge and pull everytime my neighbor drives home in his truck, it is excitement to see him. (He loves Paul.)

 

Only you know what you can handle and can't handle, what you are willing to work with/or and not. That is a very personal decision.

 

I have high prey greyhounds, as I do not have cats, and am allergic to them. I have one that is very high prey and I do not take her to M&G's or dog parks if small dogs are there. She is the highest prey greyhound I ever have had the experience to be with. But she is also the sweetest and sleeps with me every night. In time, she is better,and I can distract her when we are walking if necessary, but I would not trust her loose we ith small animals.

 

My boys will lunge and pull when they see kids, but both of them love kids. The growling would throw me, but I do not have any children in the home.

 

You say there are groups close to you, maybe you should take another two day drive and take him back before you have a tragedy, and then work with a local group where you will have local support in the transition. Because one has had greyhounds before does not mean any of us are savvy in every aspect of a greyhounds personality.

 

Good luck and keep us posted.

[silverfish]

Having taken on a dog who was supposed to be fine with small dogs, calm, quiet etc etc and is not, I feel your pain. My advice to you if you don't think you can handle your new guy is to contact the group, let them know what he is doing and return him.

 

I say this because I know what it's like to accept a dog who is SO not what you were looking for, keep him, and work with him. Ours is doing a lot better, but he is a lot of work, and will probably never be safe off the lead in non-greyhound company, and he will never be the calm, quiet dog we needed with a tripod in the house. We've had him nearly a year now, and he is still a lot of work - probably always will be. He's a ten year old perpetual puppy, who is clumsy, and while he is not as prey-driven as my truly 'high prey' girl was, he is super-interested to the point where he could injure someone's pet out of sheer curiosity.

 

I do, however, agree with the others who said it's way, way too early to be letting a new dog off the leash in an unfamiliar setting - whatever his breed, but particularly an ex-racing greyhound. The world is new to him and possibly some of his problems are down to fear and uncertaintly. It could well be that with children - he could be thinking 'I don't know what you are but you look highly unpredictable, so I'm going to chase you off before you get a chance to do anything to me'.

 

He needs time to settle in, learn the new rules (of which there are an overwhelming number for him) and to trust you to the point where he will look to you for guidance. After only two days, there is no way he's ready. However .. as I said, in your situation, with him simply not being the dog who was 'advertised', then I'd probably send him back. There will be a better hound out there for you and he will find a more experienced home where someone like Pat (PhillyPups) will manage his little ways beautifullly, and everyone will be happy.

[JohnF]

But her preliminary assessment is that I need to take him back. I am frankly so grieved and sad, and also a little humiliated at not being able to cope with this and am afraid the adoption people will make me feel even worse. I hope not. I have looked forward to this for so long and it's such a nightmare. I'm not sure I will have the courage or trust to try again. Maybe someday. Y'all have been great and very kind. I appreciate all the good advice.

 

Having been thru exactly this kind of problem and one made even worse by having lost my previous dog only just over a month before, it was like another bereevement. It leaves you cold for quite some time and you think to yourself... why have I gone and done this dreadful thing to such a nice freindly dog.

The rescue people were totally professional about it, though they lost the chance of a forever home to another group as I no longer felt confident enough with them and I, of course, lost my adoption payment.

The thing is though... there is no way I could have possibly allowed someones little Maltese or Yorkie to end up getting ripped apart by any dog of mine having a lapse of control. Best for both me and the dog really. A month later I got my present dog.

Be a stickler for aptitude testing and telling the rescue exactly the kind of temperament you are looking for.

With puppies there are test charts like this. I just wish someone would make one for adult rescue dogs and add a slant for Greyhounds.

[kudzu]

Thanks so much. I am pretty much devastated by this. It was so unexpected and I am really not sure I am equipped to handle it. I'm afraid, as sweet as he is otherwise, I just don't have what it takes to deal with a dog with these kind of issues, especially when I specifically said these were issues I did not want to deal with. I know my limitations and tried to be sure I stayed within them. I'm meeting with the trainer tomorrow for her to evaluate him and we shall see. But her preliminary assessment is that I need to take him back. I am frankly so grieved and sad, and also a little humiliated at not being able to cope with this and am afraid the adoption people will make me feel even worse. I hope not. I have looked forward to this for so long and it's such a nightmare. I'm not sure I will have the courage or trust to try again. Maybe someday. Y'all have been great and very kind. I appreciate all the good advice.

For all of the above you have my utmost respect. Just from what you have written in this thread I would tend to agree with the trainer's assessment so far. It doesn't sound like this is the dog for you. That does not mean that with hard work & a lot of caution you could not make it work with this dog. However, the amount of stress involved would likely not be to the benefit of your or the dog. I am inclined to trust your judgement of your own limitations & applaud you for not wanting to overstep. A mistake when dealing with situations like this is risking someone's injury & possibly even someone's life, most likely the very dog you are trying to help.

 

Feeling grief & sadness is understandable, justified. Feeling humiliation might be unavoidable but it is not justified. You have been handed the type of dog you already knew was not appropriate for you. Dogs do sometimes cheat on their exams so sometimes end up in the wrong home despite the adoption group's best efforts. You are doing the best you can in a most unfortunate set of circumstances. It sounds like you are working to balance everyone's best interests & keep all parties safe. Again, you have my respect for that.

 

I wish this had not happened to you & believe you will continue working to make the best decision for all. It will not be easy either way. As someone else said though, please do not give up on the breed. There are Greys who can be a good fit for you.