Car Anxiety, Fearful, Frustrating, Early Onset Dementia?

[Guest SaddleWags]

For a dog that sleeps most of the day there are too many behavioral issues. I can't believe I'm admitting this - we have even told him to pack his bags, it is time to go. There's just no connection and we've had him for 3 years now. Very little personality, very little intelligence, very little (no) interest in closeness or playing. We love him (because he is dependent on us) and truly believe we are doing what's best, but his oddities seem to be increasing. He's still so young - turning 7 in a few months. He's just a walking contradiction. Experience shows he's only getting more obstinate.

 

Please help with advice or understanding.

 

List of issues:

Car anxiety: We travel a lot with our pups. Coen can proudly claim he has stood, panting for 12 hours straight from South Carolina to Dewey. We've tried all herbal/natural supplements to calm him. Melatonin made him shake like crazy. His tail clung to the underside of his chest. His anxiety overruled all other attempts (Rescue Remedy, etc) , even the thunder coat. Training? How do you teach a pup not to pant? He's mostly fine on short trips around town. Is tradazone? the thing to try? Are we traumatizing him by making him travel with us? We want him there. The contradiction comes when you grab the car keys. It's the only time he will show any real joy. He wants to get in the car so badly...ugh!

 

Pulling on leash:

This drives us crazy as we walk him twice a day. He's a marker and will pull to mark on any vertical object. We get the "no pull" freedom harness, but he still pulls. Only now I don't feel as bad pulling him back. The second half of every walk ends with me dragging him because he's been pulled so much. Believe me when I say this, he gets to mark a whole lot. But he can't mark every single thing or we'd never get home. Because he doen't always get his way, he starts dragging...ugh! Do I stop walking him? I tried training him not to pull, by abruptly turning in the opposite direction - and treating him when he was next to me. We never got anywhere because he'd just keep pulling until eventually he'd stopped walking, and refused to go to the bathroom. This went on for two weeks. He's a very very simple minded dog. This is putting it kindly.

 

Then as we finally near the house he drags even more. He has it really good here, really good, only you'd think he lived at the dog shelter. We drag him to the gate. We have to beg him to come to the stairs. We have to invite him personally in to our house every time he goes outside. Those of you will say, "He can sense your aggravation"...Yeah, sure, but he's been walked twice daily for three years yet he behaves like he has no idea what is expected of him.

 

Fear of noises: self explanatory.

 

Fear of being any where else but his house: Even though he never wants to go home, he pants and paces if he's anywhere else.

 

Cold indifference: The only time he comes close to you is if he wants to be scratched. He's never even rested his head on my lap. I've tried to give affection and been rejected too many times to count.

 

And during the warmer months all these issues are amplified into a completely intolerable dog. We laughingly say (even though it isn't funny) he has the "May Grays" and "June Glooms" every month the temperature is over 65 degrees.

 

I know he was damaged before we got him, but his actions only make his life harder. I know he doesn't behave this way on purpose. We've (not) seriously thought of returning him, but good god, we've lost our patience so often. It's not really enjoyable having him around. I've described it like this, "I give and give, and get nothing in return but frustration". Everything I hear about dog ownership, it's not suppose to be like this.

 

Should have put this under behavior.

[Batmom]

Have you talked to your adoption group?

You've had him for 3 years?

Have you taken him to any positive-methods training classes?

[KF_in_Georgia]

What Batmom said.

 

And what does your vet say? Have there been medical tests? Labwork?

[Guest Energy11]

Has his thyroid been checked? This would be a FREE T4. The symptoms you mentioned could defiitely be thyroid related.

 

I'd have a complete physical exam, blood work, thyriod, and go from there.

 

Good Luck!

Edited January 4, 2012 by Energy11

[Guest sheila]

what is your question?

Seems pretty simple to me. You don't like this dog and apparently the feeling is mutual. If you want to know what others think you should do.....my vote would be to give him up in the hopes that he will find someone that will love him and understand him in all the ways that you do not.

[Newgreymom]

What Shelia said...

[TheFullHouse]

It sounds as if you resent him more than love him.

 

It doesn't sound as if you have worked to help resolve his issues. I could be wrong about this but it's the way you come across. He may be picking up on your negative feelings which may be the reason for him seeming to be aloof and unsure of himself.

 

If after 3 years you haven't formed some sort of an attachment to him, why not let an adoption group find him a home where he will be loved for who he is and is willing to work with him to resolve them.

Edited January 5, 2012 by JillysFullHouse

[Guest verthib]

He is a typical greyhound. Mine don't readily snuggle or put their heads in my lap. My boy lives to mark. Also, if you beg yours to go up the stairs and personally invite him in and it's been this way for three years, he's probably thinking that's normal now. If youre yanking him home, he WILL resist. Mine resist when i try to make them do things as well. My girl shakes when we go new places, is SO timid and basically snubs people. My boy is the opposite. The girl who's seven doesn't play a lot and lays around most of the day- boring, like your dog. It is sad that you think he's no fun and that he's frustrating. You could try giving him a benadryl to travel so he sleeps and is less stressed. Please remember you can't compare them to other dogs. They are a unique breed who are a lot of times standoffish and aloof. They are not driven to please people and don't generally live for human stimulation like labs or retrievers. They've been bred for hundreds of years to be independent and thrive on chasing and doing "their job". It sounds like this maybe wasn't the right breed for you, and not the right dog. It's a shame that you can't love him for his good qualities instead of loving him "because he depends on you". Lord knows I wish my girl was more outgoing and less nervous and I wish my boy was more affectionate and liked to mark less BUT I love them wholly without judgement. I love them because they are the dogs they are meant to be, not because they are what I *want* them to be. I hope you will consider allowing him to find a home that will be a better fit. I am *sure* he senses your frustration, resentment and anger towards him... And that's really heartbreaking.

[tbhounds]

I would run a full thyroid panel! (MSU)

[Guest tore140]

Sorry to hear you are having such problems with him.

 

Do you have other dogs, or is he the only one? If you do, how does he act with them? How is your relationship with your other dogs?

 

The walks you do with him are so important- you may really want to consider working with a trainer to get him to walk calmly beside you on the leash. The pack relationship is important, and if he's way ahead of you pulling and marking, you're probably right- he could care less if he was on the walk by himself or not/ out of site out of mind. When he puts on the breaks and refuses to move, he's disagreeing with whatever it is you're trying to do. Walks are supposed to be a chance to migrate as a pack, and if you can accomplish him walking beside you consistently he's going to feel more connected to you- which is ultimately what you want- that great relationship. Not to mention if he's heeling at your side and tries to pull over to mark, you can easily disagree with that behavior at a few inches from your body than from feet ahead of you. Dog's for the most part experience in the moment, so if you can communicate to him that you're the decider on when he pees and when he doesn't, and when he walks and when he doesn't you become a pretty important part of his life. A good trainer could really asses the situation and give you advice on how to communicate with him in a way he understands which will so improve your relationship. Right now, it just sounds like miscommunication and lack of leadership-not as a fault of yours, but he just doesn't understand what you want, so he doesn't feel obliged to cooperate. If you can show him leadership and direction in a way he understands, he's going to follow you anywhere. It's just reaching that communication line, especially with a strong willed dog that's pulled you around for 3 years.

 

Once you make progress with him, if you have other dogs that are well behaved you can add them to the walk, too. All of a sudden you're walking a pack of dogs that are migrating WITH you, in sync with you, not out doing whatever it is that THEY want.

 

My dogs go pee and poop in my yard before we go on a walk. They get it all out of their system before hand, and as we walk we are just there to exercise and move together- not to explore freely. The walk is a structured exercise, not a freedom romp. They do get exploring time when we are somewhere new, but when it's time to move- they know it. It get all sorts of looks walking a greyhound, a corgi with a backpack on, and an occasional pug and pitbull from my other family members all on my left side heeling properly. I pass by people with one little 25lb dog yanking on the leash and barking at us as the owner begs them to "sit, sit, sit,shh,shh,shh" and my dog's don't even care. They're out there with me moving and enjoying being together. Walking my dogs for 45 minutes a night is the best part of my day.

 

I hope you can find something that works for you, because dog's are supposed to be fun and fulfilling and easily can be with the right communication and training. They love routine. If you can get him heeling beside you and involved with your leadership, you'll notice changes throughout all experiences with him and hopefully a change in his anxiety, I just know it. I feel like one consistent change can really change A LOT of things in your relationship and his behavior. He'll love it once he understands what you want and you will too! Good luck!!

[Walliered]

Call an adoption group and give him up.

[gazehund]

I am not sure where self education / research into greyhound behavior has gone but it quite clearly has run off the rails more than a few times lately on GT. Had you done any research on greyhounds you would know that what you perceive as "very little personality", "very little intelligence" and "very little interest in closeness" are common sight hound traits. Obstinate? Can't say that I blame him but I doubt he is being "obstinate" on purpose. Fearful? Anxious? Miserably unhappy with people who don't understand him and don't care to?

Yeah, now we're talking. If you are looking for a group of strangers to validate your desire to return this dog

(even though you "love" him.) By all means. Sooner rather than later. Like 2 years ago sooner. Since you are so giving, please do this dog a favor and give him up to the adoption agency. Tomorrow. I assure you he is getting absolutely nothing from you either.

[Guest Geostar]

This could also be a personality issue. I'd talk to an experienced dog trainer and see. Also, get his thryoid checked as that can affect soooo many things. Another point: your body actions may give off something he does not understand. Remember, he is a 'wolf' and as such does understand body actions better than we ever will! Use treats..talk to him quietly. Best wishes..but, DO NOT give him up..

-star

[robinw]

I agree with using treats to bipuild closeness and to help with training. Also, try to relax when you're aroun him. I could see how it would be frustrating to be around a dog that doesn't seem to get it, but greyhounds are really sensitive and can pick up on negativity. I also agree with the suggestion to talk to your adoption group.

 

ETA: some of the behaviour you're describing seems a,lot like my Phoenix before he was diagnosed with babesia, especially the depression. Has he been tested for TBDs?

Edited January 5, 2012 by robinw

[greyhead]

No, I don't think you "should have put this under Behavior." The place to start is medical, and especially the thyroid, as others have stated. It sounds like you're pretty convinced it's behavioral, which means you think he has a choice about all this. And that's why you resent him. If you use "thyroid" as a search term in either the H&M or the Behavior forums here on GT, you'll get the perspective you need, I think.

[Guest tore140]

I should have mentioned I agree that you should get the vet workup, no doubt! My dog is having anxiety issues from thyroid as many people's dog's have. But there is miscommunication between you and him for sure, because you feel so frustrated and exhausted. I think you should do both. Pulling on the walk and marking non-stop is just a bad behavior that needs worked on. Anxiety has it's own bag of tricks to deal with, and very easily could be from a medical issue. However, basic training and having successful communication, even with a dog with anxiety, is a foundation that only can provide progressing things. Good luck!

[Guest PhillyPups]

My heart goes out for Coen. All of my greyhounds would be called by some, aloof. Especially when I have had retrievers all my life. I have one here that when she came to me, if I stood up she was so undersocialized that she would stand and pee herself. (And she never set foot on a racetrack, so it was not track life) I worked with her. She now comes over and does rest her head in my lap. Greyhounds are really very smart, I am sure Coen is smart enough to realize that you resent him, so he figures why bother. He is smart enough to not waste his energy on someone that he has had to live with for 3 years (yep sometimes it is a shame the hounds can't bounce their humans) and feels no "connection" to him.

 

However, that said,I am sure that there is a home somewhere that would love Coen and enjoy the being that he is rather than expect him to be something heis not. Return him to the adoption group and he may be lucky enough to find that home.

 

Oh,and I almost forgot the obligatory

Edited January 5, 2012 by PhillyPups

[Guest SaddleWags]

I truly appreciate everyone's comment. My husband and I and friends, namely our vet, have talked about this at length. I am totally aware/capable of taking full blame for any miscommunication. Coen smells like cinnamon to me, that's how much I love him. He is my first pup. The one I waited for a really really long time. Then my second greyhound came, and she is pure angelic crumb cake. I love her. She is my darling. I look at her and she understands. She's done a world of good for Coen, showing him how to play, showing him that getting close is okay.

 

We had him for two years when my husband left the country for 2 months. While he was gone I took advantage of the "open" slot and took in a foster greyhound. I would never had done it, if I'd known how difficult it turned out to be for Coen. He refused to come in the house. He refused to eat in the kitchen - as a result, he got a summer picnic every meal outside. Basically his world of 2 years was turned upside down. His routine was the exact same, only his dad was gone and there was a new pup in his place. But his dad returned and ever since then, it's been a gradual down hill ride.

 

I do let them smell the smells. Like my mom always said, "eat your tuna, it makes you smart". That's how I look at the new smells around the neighborhood. I want my pup's to explore, not just get exercise.

 

When I noticed these behavioral changes over a year ago and he had a physical. His thyroid was normal. Even though my vet recommended putting him on Thyroid meds, I read on here that it's the most over diagnosed syndrome, so I've resisted. I do have an appointment with the vet. She'll consider turning me over to a behaviorist once the physical is thru.

 

I did more research about this breed than most people before we got him. I've learned even more since we've had him. But when we got him, he was so brave and independent. Qualities I admired considering what his counterparts endure. But since the summer my husband left the country, he's just been dissolving.

 

All these behaviors are new. His uncertainty is new. These complaints are not about a dog that we don't understand. They are concerns about a dog that is growing into issues not growing out of issues like most greyhounds do. They didn't exist when we got him. We took obedience training after 3 months of living together. We bonded. We loved it. But after since the summer of 2010 things have changed. That is the point.

 

Thank you again for all your responses.

Edited January 5, 2012 by SaddleWags

[Batmom]

Make sure your vet checks his vision and hearing as well as the usual things.

 

If his thyroid was normal, you were right not to put him on meds. Like tbhounds, I recommend MSU's premium profile with endocrinologist's interpretation for any thyroid workup.

 

Absent a medical issue, I think some of his ... infelicities, from your point of view ... could be addressed -- partly by altering his behavior, and maybe partly by altering your expectations. A qualified behaviorist might be the best professional to help you with that.

 

For example, pulling on the leash, dragging on walks, reluctance to come inside -- those are all things that respond well to training or behavior modification, if you will. Sometimes the methods that work well with sighthounds are a bit different than those that work with breeds such as goldens and labs, and not all sighthounds are the same. That is where a behaviorist might come in.

 

Standing up and panting in the car might be an example of something you simply live with. I have one who does that. He doesn't overheat, he doesn't vomit, he doesn't have diarrhea all over the back seat. In this case, it seems to be more my problem than his, and I can solve it: I use my side mirrors.

 

Not coming to you for much or demonstrating affection might be partly modifiable and partly not. Certain routines can encourage a dog to initiate interaction with you -- again, a behaviorist might come in handy here. Still, hounds as a group tend to be aloof, and some more than others. So, regardless of behaviorist work, etc., Coen may always be a dog who doesn't initiate much or ask for much. You have to decide whether that's a quality you can cherish or not.

 

I think that last notion -- what can you cherish? -- is where some folks are coming from in this topic. What can you cherish and delight in? What do you expect? For me, almost anything goes -- I promise to give the dogs I adopt a nice life. That isn't the same for every dog.

 

Of course, if the dog has changed in inexplicable ways over time, it's wise to explore that. Let us know what happens and if we can help, OK?

[seeh2o]

I'm of a different mind than some of the others here on GT about thyroid and so is my vet who I trust implicitly. While many greyhounds may typically have low thyroid that is normal for them, not all symptoms are "classic". My shy-girl, Claire, had a thyroid panel last May, it was low and while she wasn't displaying classic symptoms, my vet and I agreed to try her out on a very low dose of Soloxine. Well, it is like having a different dog. Some of her personality is typical retired-greyhound-I'm-discovering-myself stuff, but her fears and shyness are almost gone. She is incredible, loving, playful, curious and brave (at home and when visiting friends, my s/o and even new friends), her spookiness is really a thing of the past. She is now a bit shy, but not spooky. While she had come out of her shell quite a bit in the time that I'd had her (about 2 years), the real dramatic change happened after she began her Soloxine. She is thriving. I can honestly say that she is one of the happiest and most joyful dogs I have ever had the pleasure of owning in my life. There isn't a day that goes by that she doesn't make me laugh.

 

My vet sends thyroid panels to Dr. Jean Dodds at Hemopet who runs them at her lab and sends back the results with her interpretation that is specific to the breed of the dog. Dr. Dodds works with greyhounds, so she is very familiar with the breed. It is a viable and trusted option/alternative to sending the blood work to MSU.

 

I completely agree with Batmom about the positive reinforcement training, it goes really far with this breed. It may not change behavior overnight, but it does change behavior and really creates a tight bond between human and dog, it builds trust and respect, the foundation for a positive relationship for you and your boy. It may even work for riding in the car.

 

My other greyhound, Carl - who is Claire's littermate, is superbly confident in the world, but a terrible passenger in the car and has been known to stand and pant for the duration of road trips (6 hours was his longest one). I bought a barrier that attaches to the back of of my front seat head rests for our safety, he was sticking his head over my shoulder and I couldn't see past him. I tried all the typical "quick" fixes including herbal supplements, Valium, Benedryl, Dramamine, soothing dog music cds, soft dog beds and lavender..well, I still use the lavender, but it's because I like the smell of it, but nothing worked really well on it's own. The Valium helped modestly, meaning he would lay down for a few seconds at at time several times while on a 4+ hour trip. Then, I got smart and tried positive reinforcement (in conjunction with the Valium). Carl is VERY food motivated, even when he's scared, so I used that to my advantage. When he would lay down for even 5 seconds, which, until yesterday...literally yesterday, was a very lengthy time for him to lay down in the car, I would praise him up one side, down the other and give him a treat. I'd encourage him to lay down, made sure he knew I had treats and every time he would lay down even for a second, he would get a treat and lots of positive reinforcement. Yesterday on the way home from a 4 - 5 hour drive he actually laid down at the halfway point in the trip, I praised him and gave him lots of treats, and he actually stayed laying down for then next 2 1/2 hours!!!!! That is a true first. I was so happy I could have cried, I still could, it was a massive accomplishment for him.

 

But, it takes lots of patience, love and positive reinforcement (and lots of treats).

 

As for folks here suggesting you return Coen, I have to say that I hope it's your style of writing that is making people think that. However, some of what you've written makes it sound like you are so distant from him emotionally that it does make people think maybe he, and you, would be happier if he were in a different home. Is it your writing style or might he be better off elsewhere? Only you know the answer to that.

Edited January 5, 2012 by seeh2o

[JJNg]

But when we got him, he was so brave and independent. Qualities I admired considering what his counterparts endure. But since the summer my husband left the country, he's just been dissolving.

 

All these behaviors are new. His uncertainty is new. These complaints are not about a dog that we don't understand. They are concerns about a dog that is growing into issues not growing out of issues like most greyhounds do. They didn't exist when we got him. We took obedience training after 3 months of living together. We bonded. We loved it. But after since the summer of 2010 things have changed.

This information puts a different slant on things... In your initial post, you wrote, "There's just no connection and we've had him for 3 years now. Very little personality, very little intelligence, very little (no) interest in closeness or playing." These comments seemed to imply that you had never bonded with Coen in the 3 years you've had him, which is probably why you got all the responses about returning him.

 

Given that the behavior is new, it is certainly possible that a medical problem is underlying this, and it may just have been a coincidence that it started around the time you had some routine changes. Always best to thoroughly explore that avenue first before making the assumption that it's behavioral.

 

Assuming an underlying medical cause is not found, the behavior changes you mention can also all be stress/anxiety-related. This may have been triggered by the changes in the summer of 2010, but if things have gotten back to normal in your household, and his behavior has not improved, then he hasn't learned to cope and re-adjust, or there are still factors that are stressing him. It is important to look at all aspects of his life and routine to try to identify any potential stressors, including your relationship and daily interactions with him.

 

One final note, in your initial post, you wrote, "I know he was damaged before we got him." What did you mean by that? Also what do you mean by "considering what his counterparts endure"? Sounds like you may have some misconceptions about what most of our greyhounds' lives are like before they retire to the couch? While their life at the track is different from living in a home, in most cases, they are far from abused.

[DaisyDoodle]

In a nutshell:

 

 

--most greyhounds are not abused or mistreated in their racing life. Some are, but they are the exception, I believe. Where did your boy race?

 

--have the thyroid test done again. Or, try the meds and see what happens. You can always discontinue them.

 

--test for tick-borne diseases. Ticks can cause all manner of problems.

 

--Why do you want to try Trazadone? It's a human elephant tranquilizer/antipsychotic.

 

--If you get a trainer, PLEASE get one that is familiar with greyhounds. There are too many idiots in the world who want to dominate dogs, put choke collars on them, etc.

 

--Try walking your dog on a harness. Anything attached to a sighthound's head or neck can cause spine issues.

 

--Does your dog behave differently when around lots of other greyhounds? Some really don't like being only dogs, and maybe one other still isn't enough for him (though I'm not recommending getting a third.)

 

--Ask a greyhound friend to dog sit him for a weekend. If his behavior is markedly happier in another home, it may be in his best interest to return him.

[Batmom]

--have the thyroid test done again. Or, try the meds and see what happens. You can always discontinue them.

 

If in doubt, having the test done again would be best. For pocketbook's sake, you could start with the T4 on the chemistry panel. If it's within range a second time, you're done -- the problem isn't a thyroid issue and thyroid meds should not be given. If it's lower than normal, do the full panel.

 

I really wouldn't try the meds without a supporting test panel (not just a T4 result). I had an oddly behaving, spooky greyhound. Her thyroid values were HIGH as greyhounds go. Giving her extra thyroid hormone could have seriously damaged her heart or even killed her.

[Guest Energy11]

I would run a full thyroid panel! (MSU)

 

It surely does sound like a thyroid problem! I totally agree with you, tbhounds! The Free T4 needs to be part of your panel. I know you mentioned that the thyriod was tested. Was a Free T4 done? A regular T4 doesn't really diagnose thyroid problems.

 

My Goldie had thyriod testing done late last fall. Her tests were done at MSU. Her thyroid numbers were in the "low" range. The vet here didn't recommend supplementation. My former vet/employer, did. I also sent everything to Dr Jean Dodds, and SHE totally recommened thyriod supplementation. Goldie is a totally different dog! I was ready to send her to "The Bridge" last year.

 

MEDICAL issues can explain behavioral problems, nine times out of ten.

 

Good Luck! Send that boy a hug from us! ... p.s. MINE are ALL "alof and stubborn" at times They are Greyhounds )

Edited January 5, 2012 by Energy11

[Guest SaddleWags]

Believe me, my husband pointed out the obvious tone of my first post. You can tell I was definitely venting. I even felt better after writing it. I sounded like a heartless monster. But I know you can all relate.

 

I've made a list of all the medical options and will be asking my vet to consider these suggestions. Thanks for those. Man, I'll be sooo sad if all he needs is thyroid adjustments. Especially after days & hours of researching on here and drawing the conclusion not to pursue meds for his thyroid.

 

His physical is tomorrow morning.

 

My husband pointed out that he has a different walking style than I do when he has to walk the pups without me. I walk them alone most of the time. So we walked together this morning and he had them both to show me what he does. He just goes. He stopped four times, that was it. Unlike me, who lets them stop and smell probably 3-4 times as much.

 

Needless to say, the walk wasn't any fun, but we got our business done. With this being said, Coen still pulled. But not as badly. I think he was just having a better day cuz he knows I've been talking about him a lot

 

After the test results come back we'll consider doing behavior modifcation with him again. He may just need so one-on-one time with us, even though he gets it everyday since I work from home.

 

Thanks again for all the insight. Very much appreciated!