Major Is A Bully

[Guest zaylea]

I've had Major for about a year now, and she's 7. I got Bobo in May, who is a 2 year old male. In general, they seem to get along. I don't have to separate them for meals, they sleep next to each other all day (uncrated, but in a restricted area) when I'm at work. They'll happily lay together in the backseat of my car (although, I muzzle them just in case.) If I get out some treats or something, neither bullies the other to get it first or anything like that. They both respond to "No" and "Drop it" etc. Major doesn't get into fights at the dog park or show aggression towards other dogs at all (usually she greets dogs on walks with a play bow.)

 

But sometimes...

 

Major viciously attacks Bobo. Lots of high pitched screeching. She will back off when I yell "Hey! Stop it!" and then stand there and growl like she wants to go after him again (and sometimes has, but at this point I grab her as soon as she backs off.) Poor Bobo, he's a submissive boy and just puts up with it. Tonight it happened again, and she went after his throat. There were actually tufts of black fur on the floor afterwards (Bobo's) and there was some blood but no serious damage. She also does this thing where sometimes she decides she wants to lay where he's laying, and she'll either wedge herself onto the bed so that he'll get up, or she'll attack him. It's not over a particular bed or position, it's like she does it just to show him who's boss. My boyfriend has seen her attack him when I wasn't even in the room. We've been trying for months now to figure out what triggers it and are just stumped.

 

At this point, I don't know what to do. I'm very worried that she's going to seriously hurt him at some point. I'm afraid one day she's just gonna rip his throat out. I can't prevent the fights because there's no obvious trigger. I've read a lot of dog behavior/training books and I'm at a loss on what I can do with her training to prevent these fights from happening. Is it possible that this isn't something I can train out of her?

 

Edit: I also wanted to add that she did not behave this way at all with my other dog, Batou, who passed away in April. It's just poor Bobo.

Edited December 20, 2011 by zaylea

[TheFullHouse]

I would muzzle both when you are not home! If there is nothing triggering the attacks you could come home to find him seriously hurt. It might even be safer to crate him for his protection. The only time I've seen mine get a little too rough is when playing gets a little rough but usually the one who is the more submissive will fight back. Does your boy ever stand up for himself?

[Guest zaylea]

I would muzzle both when you are not home! If there is nothing triggering the attacks you could come home to find him seriously hurt. It might even be safer to crate him for his protection. The only time I've seen mine get a little too rough is when playing gets a little rough but usually the one who is the more submissive will fight back. Does your boy ever stand up for himself?

 

I have been mildly concerned about something happening when I'm at work, but these fights seem to almost always happen in the evening and I've never seen any evidence of them fighting when I'm not home. It's 8 or 9 hours and they'd probably be pretty unhappy muzzled or crated for that whole time, even though I come home in the middle of the day for a walk. I tried separating them with a dog gate during the day, but Major just bulldozes the gate (not to attack him, just she gets upset when she's alone.) I live in an apartment, and the current arrangement keeps them quiet during the day, and I'm reluctant to change it in such a way that would risk making them whine/bark.

 

He does fight back a bit and has managed to nick her a few times, but he mostly just submits.

Edited December 20, 2011 by zaylea

[TheFullHouse]

If she didn't behave this way with your previous hound you may have a vet check her over and make sure her aggression is not caused by something physical causing it. The other thing that occurs to me is the age difference. Some older dogs do not do well with puppies and at 2 he's still very much a puppy. Is he very active? I just added a 2 year old to my pack of older dogs and she is quite active and a couple of mine have had to correct her behavior and she responds like a puppy and takes the correction, but mine have never behaved like your girl. If your plan is to keep the little boy I would seek the help of a trainer.

 

If it's only happening when you're home, your girl may be being possessive of you.

Edited December 20, 2011 by JillysFullHouse

[Guest zaylea]

If she didn't behave this way with your previous hound you may have a vet check her over and make sure her aggression is not caused by something physical causing it. The other thing that occurs to me is the age difference. Some older dogs do not do well with puppies and at 2 he's still very much a puppy. Is he very active? I just added a 2 year old to my pack of older dogs and she is quite active and a couple of mine have had to correct her behavior and she responds like a puppy and takes the correction, but mine have never behaved like your girl. If your plan is to keep the little boy I would seek the help of a trainer.

 

If it's only happening when you're home, your girl may be being possessive of you.

 

I did have the vet check her over and she seems to be in good health. Even for a puppy, Bobo is pretty mellow. When she attacks him he's not really doing anything, no hyper annoying puppy stuff. I've seen the older dog correct the younger dog thing, and it doesn't seem like that at all. It's too vicious.

 

We thought she might be possessive of me, but it's happened at least twice when I've been in the shower and they were in a different room.

[dex95lucy]

I've always crated my dogs when I leave. No problems.

 

Please consider muzzling. If you have ever seen the results of a dog fight, you would not hesitate, though muzzles don't always prevent all injuries. I would at the very least muzzle both. With their thin skin, the least little thing can cause a horrible tear. One of the greys I cared for needed over 300 sutures when she and her daughter fought.

 

Good luck and keep us posted. Something is going on between them. If only we could understand their language.

 

 

[Sambuca]

Please consider muzzling the pups when you're not home. My 2 are loose and muzzled when I'm not home and they do just fine. In fact they put their faces in the muzzle when I show them to the dogs.

[Guest zaylea]

I have never had a good experience with trying to crate my dogs when I'm at work. I did the whole alone time training thing and everything. They just whine and whine, and then my grumpy hermit downstairs neighbor complains. The problem with muzzles is they just rub up against the walls and floor and it ruins things, so I only use the muzzles in the car and when they are in an off leash area.

 

I thought about consulting a trainer, but I'm not sure they could do anything since it'd be rather difficult to let them SEE the behavior.

[greyhead]

Do you need to rehome one of the dogs, then? Because if nothing is changed, it sounds like the puppy may get badly hurt or worse.

Edited December 20, 2011 by greyhead

[Guest mbfilby]

I have never had a good experience with trying to crate my dogs when I'm at work. I did the whole alone time training thing and everything. They just whine and whine, and then my grumpy hermit downstairs neighbor complains. The problem with muzzles is they just rub up against the walls and floor and it ruins things, so I only use the muzzles in the car and when they are in an off leash area.

 

I thought about consulting a trainer, but I'm not sure they could do anything since it'd be rather difficult to let them SEE the behavior.

 

You are going to have to do something to protect your dog. Either modify the aggression or put measures in place (like a muzzle). We all know how delicate Greyhound skin is, and this sounds like a major injury waiting to happen.

 

There must be a reason your pup is acting out. Have you had thyroid levels checked?

[TheFullHouse]

If you can't crate and won't muzzle, then honestly I would rehome the younger boy. I'm not one who recommends rehoming lightly, but if the attacks are as vicious as you say and you can't even take a shower without your girl going after him, you're courting disaster by leaving these two together unprotected. Maybe a behaviorist can give you some insight as to why your girl is behaving the way she is. I have one that was very aggressive when he joined our family but he responded to correction by me but I never left him out when I wasn't home, he was crated.

[Batmom]

Tonight it happened again, and she went after his throat.

 

What were they doing just before this happened?

 

 

Agree with the others -- you absolutely need to muzzle or separate when you can't supervise closely, until you can return the young dog to the adoption group. Better a few scrape marks on the wall than a bloodbath and one or more dead dogs.

 

It happens sometimes that two dogs simply don't get along with one another.

[Guest 4dogscrazy]

You are going to come home to a blood bath if you don't muzzle. I have four dogs, and they have argued in the past, but never ever has one of mine got up off a bed and decided to kick the crap out of another. No way is that normal. If you won't muzzle, nothing is medically wrong, attacks are unprovoked, and a behaviorist is out, then you must return him immediatly. He deserves to live fear free. She just wants him dead. Going for the throat is extreme, in my opinion. Call your group today, and good luck, so sorry this is happening to you guys!

[kudzu]

Did the vet exam of your girl include bloodwork? Fecal check? Urinalysis?

 

For now, as others have stressed, you must either separate your dogs or muzzle them both when you are not there. To keep the muzzles on use flat buckle collars with no tags or anything dangling down. Fit these high up on their necks but loose enough to fit a couple fingers underneath. You can either tape the collar & muzzle together in a on inch section on the back of their neck or slip the head strap of the muzzle through the collar. This makes it much harder for a dog to get the muzzle off. Some still can though. And this also increases the risk of them getting caught on something. For this reason I much prefer crating to muzzling.

 

You might consider using an xpen or xpens to create a barrier between the dogs. We do this & it works well. (For reasons I cannot quite explain since it is often just a 24" xpen they could easily jump.) Basically we make it so that the dogs are either in different but adjoining rooms or we subdivide them within the same room. The idea is to offer them the company of without physical access to the other dog. The xpens are usually supported, held steady by placing them between or wrapped around furniture, doorways, doors or walls. These are not set up in a square or circle as one would normally use them. Nor are they attached to any object. It is mostly a psychological barrier with a little physical protection to back it up.

 

In your position I would get a behaviorist to help me or rehome the dog. At this point I would not leave the two of them along together even muzzled. In fact, if I could not crate them I would muzzle them & put up some barrier between them when I was not home. I would separate the dogs if I left the room. That might be done by using the barrier or talking one of them with me when I left the room. In your case I'd take the girl fearing that leaving her & taking the boy would cause her to be jealous.

 

Something else I would start doing immediately is rewarding her for being good when he was around. Is she just laying on her bed with him in the same room? Then reward her. She's behaving appropriately. Is she paying attention to you & ignoring him? Reward. Is she laying in a different room without him around? No reward for that but not because she is being bad, just because for this purpose it isn't the particular behavior you are looking for. You are telling her how you want her to behave & at the same time you are making his presence a good thing.

 

You might also consider leaving a leash on her when you are home & both dogs are loose together. This might offer you a way to pull her back without so much physical risk to yourself.

 

Please be very careful & get some help. These dogs simply may not be appropriate companions. I'm not saying your should rehome the boy. I think first investigating the situation more & seeing if there is a remedy is good. However, you should keep an open mind & recognize that rehoming may be the kindest thing for this all parties. Even if he is not physically injured in these attacks he is suffering emotionally. And it sounds like your girl is too. Certainly it is not helping your own emotional state to have to worry about this all the time.

 

Wishing you all safety & the best possible outcome. Good luck.

[GeorgeofNE]

I have never had a good experience with trying to crate my dogs when I'm at work. I did the whole alone time training thing and everything. They just whine and whine, and then my grumpy hermit downstairs neighbor complains. The problem with muzzles is they just rub up against the walls and floor and it ruins things, so I only use the muzzles in the car and when they are in an off leash area.

 

I thought about consulting a trainer, but I'm not sure they could do anything since it'd be rather difficult to let them SEE the behavior.

 

 

This is a tough situation, and if you read your own original post, you stated you were afraid she would "rip his throat out."

 

I'm a bit baffled that you would prefer to come home to that then any potential muzzle damage?.

[silverfish]

There is someone on the board who did come home to a bloodbath, and one of the two dogs died. IIRC, she also thought she could manage the behaviour because it didn't happen often and was never terribly serious. On the evening in question, one of the dogs was simply unlucky and his jugular got nicked. PLEASE do not let this happen to your pup.

 

(Robbie Lee if you see this, my apologies for any pain caused - I don't mean to upset you by bringing it all back, but the OP needs to know it can happen. )

 

I've never crated my dogs and I have never routinely muzzled, but in this case, I have to agree with the others. If she's going for his throat and actually drawing blood, she means business and one day she'll probably seriously injure or kill him unless you 1) separate or muzzle or 2) rehome one of them. I'm very sorry to say it, but in my opinion, those are your choices.

 

As others have said, some dogs simply do not get along.

 

I have never had a good experience with trying to crate my dogs when I'm at work. I did the whole alone time training thing and everything. They just whine and whine, and then my grumpy hermit downstairs neighbor complains. The problem with muzzles is they just rub up against the walls and floor and it ruins things, so I only use the muzzles in the car and when they are in an off leash area.

 

I thought about consulting a trainer, but I'm not sure they could do anything since it'd be rather difficult to let them SEE the behavior.

 

You are going to have to do something to protect your dog. Either modify the aggression or put measures in place (like a muzzle). We all know how delicate Greyhound skin is, and this sounds like a major injury waiting to happen.

 

There must be a reason your pup is acting out. Have you had thyroid levels checked?

 

Good idea to check the thyroid. If your vet doesn't already know about greyhounds, they run very low on thyroid hormones as the norm, but it is possible to get a good idea if they're just 'greyhound low' or 'genuinely, pathologically low'. Get them to do a full thyroid panel - my vet will do the standard T4, and then if it's off the (normal) scale at the bottom end, she'll do the full works. She generally draws enough blood for both tests to save people having to go back in.

 

Low thyroid can cause problems with aggression.

 

Either your girl Major is showing unprovoked and unrestrained aggression (pretty unusual, actually), or if there's nothing medical, she really, really wants the pup gone and she only behaves when you're there because you say so and she respects you. She may behave 99% of the time when you're not there, but you can't really mean to bet your pup's life on that 1%? Not a good basis for a happy 'pack'.

Edited December 20, 2011 by silverfish

[maryz]

My heart is racing as I read this thread. I am terribly worried about your boy. Please take the advice offered here. Personally, I think I would rehome this boy. He needs and deserves to be in a

home where he can live in peace and without fear.

[Burpdog]

I have been mildly concerned about something happening when I'm at work, but these fights seem to almost always happen in the evening and I've never seen any evidence of them fighting when I'm not home.

 

It only takes once and one of them is dead.

 

I am not sure what you are waiting for?

[Guest zaylea]

Major is going to the vet on Friday morning to have her thyroid checked, and to just push the issue of her aggression more (maybe the vet can refer me to a behaviorist if she really can't find anything wrong.) Also, when I first got Major she had a bald butt, then it got really fluffy, and now it's balding again. I've been thinking it might be something medical because if it wasn't I would think her trigger would be more obvious. I'm going to try crating Bobo, because he's more mellow and will hopefully not get upset about it. I'll muzzle her in the evenings when I'm home, until this is figured out.

[Guest 4dogscrazy]

Bless you for asking for advice, and then heeding it. You will not find a better or bigger group of people in the world, who care about every single dog, than you will on here. We definately don't want Major to be labled as aggressive, either! Keep us posted!

[TheFullHouse]

I'm so glad you're going to have her checked out. Hopefully you can find out what is causing this sudden aggression in her. Please let us know how things turn out.

[kudzu]

Also, consider that Lyme disease can cause seemingly unprovoked aggression as well. So ask for at least a SNAP4Dx test to help in the investigation. A negative isn't a guaranty it isn't a tick disease but a positive can certainly go a long way to ruling one in.

 

Don't want Major to be sick but I sure hope you can find a treatable cause of the problem so your dogs can get along together & both will be happy. Good luck.

[Batmom]

Just a caution on the thyroid: You can't diagnose hypothyroidism from the T4 that comes back on most vet's office chemistry panels. You'd need a full thyroid panel with fT4ed (free T4 by equilibrium dialysis) and TSH, from someplace like Michigan State University's animal health endocrinology lab.

 

That said, I wouldn't leap to thyroid. You'd be better off with a general health check -- physical exam to include eyes, ears, mouth. Hypothyroidism might make a dog a bit crabby when disturbed from the condition's hallmark lethargy, but getting up on one's feet and starting something aggressive toward others would almost certainly have a different cause.

[Guest zombrie]

Also, consider that Lyme disease can cause seemingly unprovoked aggression as well. So ask for at least a SNAP4Dx test to help in the investigation. A negative isn't a guaranty it isn't a tick disease but a positive can certainly go a long way to ruling one in.

 

Don't want Major to be sick but I sure hope you can find a treatable cause of the problem so your dogs can get along together & both will be happy. Good luck.

 

Yes, please test for lyme/other TBD. Lyme made my sweet, even-tempered, easy going, tolerant golden retriever into a vicious dog. He attacked one of our dogs twice unprovoked with no warnings and he didn't stop, thank god we were there on both occasions. The morning after the second attack, he bit me. Took him in for a lyme test and it came back positive sky high. After treatment, the aggression went away.

 

If you don't feel comfortable crating or muzzling, could you separate them into different rooms by a baby gate?

 

And what you described about the hair loss on the butt, both my greyhounds do that. They will have nice full fuzz butts then they will go completely bald, grow back again, etc.

[Guest sheila]

. The problem with muzzles is they just rub up against the walls and floor and it ruins things, so I only use the muzzles in the car and when they are in an off leash area.

 

 

Until you get everything else sorted out, muzzles and a Magic Eraser will be your friends.