Fat Or Just Meaty Loins?

[Guest carhound]

Last time Camshaft went to the vet he mentioned while examining her that she could stand to lose some weight. He went on to explain further while grabbing her loins between E and F in the diagram below that she is a little heavy "here" referring to her loins. When looking down from above they protrude outward after her ribs tuck in and then go back in before her hips. According to Victoryland Racetrack her racing weight was 58 lbs, and she came to us around there. She has lost some of her definition/bulk though so I'm guessing she may have lost a little muscle.

 

 

I take him at his word because he said he used to work with greyhounds, but at the same time you could easily feel her last three ribs and in the right light you could almost make them out. So we cut back the food from 3 1/2 cups to 3 cups to see how she did. About 3 weeks went by and she was starting to look noticeably thinner with her rib cage becoming more pronounced and not as much energy and no change in the size of her loin area. So I went back to 3 1/2 cups and she's gained a little back and has more energy.

 

Thoughts? I don't want to have a fat greyhound

[Trihounds]

Good on you for trying your vet's advice - and you are right, you definitely do not want a fat greyhound...I am sure you know they are not meant to carry extra weight.

 

Lot's of opinions on this, but I think a lot of people will tell you that you should see the last 3-4 ribs on the hound, not just feel them.

 

Can't comment on the energy thing - could be weather, routine, etc. If she is gaining weight when you increase the feed quantity, it means she isn't using all the energy you are giving her so her body is storing it...just like people. From your limited description, personally, I'd go back to the lesser amount and find the balance to keep her last few ribs showing. Sounds like you are nearly there!

[seeh2o]

How much does she weigh now?

 

Two weeks ago when I inadvertently overfed Carl and he gained 5 lbs in 2 months he was with me at the vet's for Claire's check up...before she even saw Claire she walked behind Carl and put her hands on the same spot - between E and F and said, "I'm wondering if this is fat or muscle". We put him on the scale, which answered the question. His normal weight is 72, he was 77. That's my experience, just like people, other dogs may carry their extra baggage differently.

[Guest mbfilby]

The top 1/2 of the area towards the spine between E and F on the diagram should bulge out, this is muscle. The "bulge" should taper down in the lower 1/2 between the ribs and the thigh into a nice tuck just like the diagram shows. You should visually see at least the last three or four ribs, and a portion of vertibrae along the spine after D . If your hound does not have a distinguishable tuck, then she is likely overweight. Our Cy, has lost a good deal of his tuck and is on a diet.

[GeorgeofNE]

My dog eats 2 cups of kibble a day (and treats, I admit to treats!). He weighs 64 pounds. I can see the last three ribs and the hip points. He was JUST at the vet, who proclaimed him "perfect."

 

I'd say if your vet thinks the dog could lose a few than he's probably right!

[Guest Spencers_Greyt]

Photos?

[Guest carhound]

Oh yeah... fat greyhounds aren't pretty.

 

I should clarify... her last three ribs are clearly visible now, and prior to that her entire ribcage was starting to have definition as a result of the vet suggested change. Her loins are solid, not squishy. Although if it is fat it's likely internal fat which is certainly worse(i don't even know if dogs can get that).

 

The last time I weighed her was during a bout of diarrhea, which was why she was at the vet. She was 54-55 as a result of being sick for a few days and losing a lot of water. She was weighed only a few weeks earlier on that same scale at 57-58 iirc. I'll do the bathroom scale trick tonight to see how much she weighs.

 

Photos?

 

I know... worthless discussion without pics. I'll take some tonight.

[OwnedBySummer]

I think we need pictures.

 

Edit: Oops, I see you just edited your last post to say that you'll be taking some tonight.

Edited June 9, 2011 by OwnedBySummer

[Guest kydie]

My grey came to me at 69 lbs,, raced at 79 lbs,, so he was WAY to thin now he weighs about 80 lbs,, he has a clear change in bulk, now that he doesn't race, has his race weight,, but trully looks different

[Guest sheila]

how much exercise is she getting? I mean, it's not all about the food when it comes to body definition. It's also not always about weight because muscle is heavier than fat. Years ago when I was on a workout regimen I actually GAINED 10 lbs in muscle weight w/o a noticeable difference in my size.

[Guest carhound]

Okay... so I looked over the notes we have on her and this is what I found/remembered. The adoption agency recommended that 60 lbs would be a good weight for her. And when wifey took Camshaft for her first vet visit they said she could stand to gain a few more pounds, and this was when she weight in at 56-57lbs.

 

As far as exercise she and I will do backyard zoomies when I get home from work. She gets a 10-20 minute walk in the morning and a 30-40 minute walk in the evening.

 

So I weighed her this morning before our walk with a full tummy/bowel and she came in at 61.4 lbs. I'll spot her a pound for the full tummy/bowels, so I'd say 60.5 lbs.

 

[Guest GreysAndMoreGreys]

I totally agree with what Sheila has stated.

Being a certain weight is all dependent on her fit level. At the tracks they are at peak physical performance weight.

I'm always leery to judge what a dogs weight should be when each trainer keeps their hounds at different levels. I always preferred a heavier hound while others preferred a more thinner hound.

 

A pound here or there in pet life isn't a huge deal. If she raced in the mid to higher 50's then being in the mid to lower 60's should be a fine weight.

To me she looks fine in the photos and really no concern as far as "she's to fat"

Of course it all depends on angle of photo, stance of the dog and things like that. One photo she looks a bit thick in the loin but others she looks fine.

 

Honestly I wouldn't worry yourself too much over it. If she floats between low to mid 60's your doing just fine

[Guest RichardUK]

I'll go with Greyandmoregrey She doesn't seem overly fat but lacks muscle definition. We usually recommend to keep within 5 lbs of racing weight but depends on the dog - Our trainers like to see "a bit of a back on them" I once had a vet who suggested my dog needed to lose weight - took her back to her trainer for his opinion. He said she was just fine. Later found her retirement photo from the kennels - she was almost identical as she was when she went to the vet!!

[PrairieProf]

I totally agree with what Sheila has stated.

Being a certain weight is all dependent on her fit level. At the tracks they are at peak physical performance weight.

I'm always leery to judge what a dogs weight should be when each trainer keeps their hounds at different levels. I always preferred a heavier hound while others preferred a more thinner hound.

deal. If she raced in the mid to higher 50's then being in the mid to lower 60's should be a fine weight.

To me she looks fine in the photos and really no concern as far as "she's to fat"

Of course it all depends on angle of photo, stance of the dog and things like that. One photo she looks a bit thick in the loin but others she looks fine.

 

Honestly I wouldn't worry yourself too much over it. If she floats between low to mid 60's your doing just fine

A pound here or there in pet life isn't a huge

 

I don't think your dog looks fat either -- maybe could use better muscle tone; she doesn't seem to have a lot of definition. But I'm going to disagree about the weight goal. My dog raced at 57, looks great 57-59 and OK at 60, but at 61 and over she's getting on the side of too heavy. My vet has a scale in the reception area so I check her a lot, and know now what weight = what look. I'm definitely in the camp of keeping them within a couple of pounds of racing weight. (But I'm pretty fanatical about my own weight as well, so factor that in.)

[MerlinsMum]

I totally agree with what Sheila has stated.

Being a certain weight is all dependent on her fit level. At the tracks they are at peak physical performance weight.

I'm always leery to judge what a dogs weight should be when each trainer keeps their hounds at different levels. I always preferred a heavier hound while others preferred a more thinner hound.

 

A pound here or there in pet life isn't a huge deal. If she raced in the mid to higher 50's then being in the mid to lower 60's should be a fine weight.

To me she looks fine in the photos and really no concern as far as "she's to fat"

Of course it all depends on angle of photo, stance of the dog and things like that. One photo she looks a bit thick in the loin but others she looks fine.

 

Honestly I wouldn't worry yourself too much over it. If she floats between low to mid 60's your doing just fine

 

What Heather said

 

Merlin raced at 72. By the time I met him he was in a shelter and weighed 68lbs, and he was WAY too skinny. I have lived with him for 4 years now, and he's been up and down, but I find that his optimum weight is around 75lbs. 76lbs is okay too, but he has been as heavy as 79 and he is simply not made to carry around 79lbs. At 75lbs he is lean, I can see his last three ribs and his hip bones stick out slightly, and he just looks... right. So that's the weight I try to keep him at. I hardly ever give him less food, though (with the exception of treats, which have been cut drastically when he gains a little too much), I simply increase the amount of exercise/zoomies. Usually he puts on a couple of pounds in the winter because that's when he doesn't get to run around as much, and last winter was very bad around here, so his walks were often shorter (although I generally make an effort to keep his walks the same length and he NEVER goes without two walks a day, even if there's an ice-storm out.)

 

In any event, if you're concerned, I'd increase his exercise regimen rather than feed him less.

[Batmom]

I think she looks fine in the pictures.

 

The width of the loin from the top -- well, sighthounds have muscle there, and you can have a very lean sighthound whose loin area is wider than the ribcage. What I look for is a pad of fat building up on top, just in front of the hipbones; that would be plumpness.

[Guest carhound]

Thanks for all the replies everyone!

 

She has lost a fair amount of muscle tone since we got her, with the majority of the change happening in the past 4-6 weeks after she got a case of Big D as a result of hookworms coming back and a seeming intolerance to her new food (Kirkland Lamb and Rice). She was eating ID prescription diet during her recovery. We tried to get her started on Kirkland L&R again when it was time to wean her from the ID Prescription Diet with no luck. She started having mucusy stool and little D.

 

We then decided to try Avoderm Salmon Meal and Sweet Potato. She's been doing great on it. Good coat, cleaner teeth, good energy, pickupable poop. But... I have notice a reduction in muscle tone as you all have notice and I'm not sure why. Could it be that she needs more excercise than what we already give her? Or could the composition of the food be the culprit here. Originally, I thought that when I was giving her 3 cups/day of Avoderm that it wasn't enough calories for her and her body had turned to consuming her bulkier muscles, which is part of the reason why I upped the amount.

[OwnedBySummer]

I am far from a greyhound expert... but Summer would be unhappy with that amount of exercise. As would my previous non-greys. The non-grey's I exercised in the back yard with a Chuck-it for at least an hour a day, usually more. Summer, being that my new house doesn't have a 1/2-acre yard, gets taken to baseball diamonds several times a week to run with other greys. Sometimes there's as many as 20. And run they do. Is there no one you can run with???? Your information doesn't say where you are but surely there's at least one other grey around?

[Guest sheila]

Thanks for all the replies everyone!

 

She has lost a fair amount of muscle tone since we got her, with the majority of the change happening in the past 4-6 weeks after she got a case of Big D as a result of hookworms coming back and a seeming intolerance to her new food (Kirkland Lamb and Rice). She was eating ID prescription diet during her recovery. We tried to get her started on Kirkland L&R again when it was time to wean her from the ID Prescription Diet with no luck. She started having mucusy stool and little D.

 

We then decided to try Avoderm Salmon Meal and Sweet Potato. She's been doing great on it. Good coat, cleaner teeth, good energy, pickupable poop. But... I have notice a reduction in muscle tone as you all have notice and I'm not sure why. Could it be that she needs more excercise than what we already give her? Or could the composition of the food be the culprit here. Originally, I thought that when I was giving her 3 cups/day of Avoderm that it wasn't enough calories for her and her body had turned to consuming her bulkier muscles, which is part of the reason why I upped the amount.

 

I'm not an expert on anything as I'm just a pet owner so this is just my opinion. If you want her to have and maintain the muscle tone that she had as a racer than I think that she will need more strenuous exercise than she is currently getting. If maintaining muscle tone is your goal perhaps you could look into lure coursing or agility. If you have a dog park in your area perhaps you could visit there a cpl times a week and let her really run. This will require some investment in time to keep her in that prime condition.

Personally I don't worry as much about muscle tone so much as I figure my hounds are retired now and not expected to maintain the same buff physique they had as athletes. For me it's enough that they are at a healthy weight and have a defined tuck and I can see at least one or two ribs. If they don't have the same bulging muscles that they once did, it's not a big deal to me. My dogs get about a 20 minute walk a day during the week and maybe twice that on the weekends and they look good, but they don't have the defined muscles of an athlete.

[Guest GreysAndMoreGreys]

I don't think your dog looks fat either -- maybe could use better muscle tone; she doesn't seem to have a lot of definition. But I'm going to disagree about the weight goal. My dog raced at 57, looks great 57-59 and OK at 60, but at 61 and over she's getting on the side of too heavy. My vet has a scale in the reception area so I check her a lot, and know now what weight = what look. I'm definitely in the camp of keeping them within a couple of pounds of racing weight. (But I'm pretty fanatical about my own weight as well, so factor that in.)

But keeping a hound within the couple pounds of racing weight really honestly and truly will depend on who the trainer was and if it was a correct set weight all along.

Maybe your girl had a good trainer who knew what he/she was doing and that set weight was the proper one.

 

I've just seen to many trainers have those hounds drawn up super tight and were all ribs and hips. No way I would want to see that hound in retired life weighing just a few pounds over their race weight.

 

It's fine to be fanatical about weight in your hounds as long as people understand it's not just the number of pounds, same as humans. It's the muscle verse fat ratio that you really should be looking at.

So if your trying to keep a dog at a set weight and there is no muscle tone as there was on the track, well that dog is going to look pretty poor in physical condition.

[Guest KsFrets]

We go for two ribs on a thin day and slight hip points. Maggie and Lisa do 3 1/2 cups a day (60 pound dogs) and Magnus does 4 cups a day (75 pounds). We don't sweat it much... but when their hips and ribs dissapear, we start breaking their cookies in half

[Guest Stripeyfan]

It also depends on the natural build of the dog!

 

Kelly is the same height as a friend of mine's grey - both of them are considered large greys - but he is much stockier and has broader hips and a squarer head, so next to this other dog he looks a lot bigger. As for his ribs, you can either see ALL of them (if he has lost weight like he did last year when he was sick with IBD), in which case he is clearly too thin, or none of them. There seems to be no in between. And his loins are HUGE - so much so we have had to give up going on walks where the footpaths go through sheep stiles or narrow gaps in walls as he won't jump and can't squeeze through them. But they are solid muscle - definitely NOT fat!

 

Right now he is about 88lb and our vet is happy with that, so we are too.

[Guest carhound]

Thanks for all the info! We just saw the vet today and he was very happy with her and said she's in great health. Only if he were being extremely critical would he say we would need to watch out for the loins and area above the shoulder blades. But he said that is the only thing he could say if he were to be extremely critical; his assessment of her is that she looks good and has good muscle definition =)

[JJNg]

Glad you got an assessment from your vet. Based on the photos, I'd agree that your girl looks like she's at a good 'pet' weight. If you were considering lure coursing or amateur racing, you might need to get her in better shape.

 

I hear a lot of people use the general guideline of around 5 lbs over racing weight as a typical pet weight. Others have already addressed how this varies based on the individual dog and trainer, as well as muscle tone. I prefer to look at body condition score (for greys, the number of ribs and amount of hip visible, etc) rather than a set numerical weight due to differences caused by the amount of muscle mass.

 

I've noticed that with some of our couch potato greys, they may actually need to be lower than their racing weight to be at a good body condition if they've lost muscle mass. I believe this may have been what GreysAndMoreGreys was alluding to in her statement, "So if your trying to keep a dog at a set weight and there is no muscle tone as there was on the track, well that dog is going to look pretty poor in physical condition."

 

A little photographic evidence:

 

My male Wiki ran his last race on 10/16/08 at 71 lbs. The photo on the left was taken on 10/26/08 when he came into our group. Photo on the right is from this spring, and he currently weighs about 64-65 lbs. He eats 1 and 1/4 cup twice daily of Kirkland's Chicken & Rice.

 

 

My friend's grey Jose ran his last race 5/5/07 at 72 lbs. Photo on left taken 5/24/07. He never really had as much muscle definition as most of the dogs right off the track. Photo on right from last fall at his current weight of around 65 lbs, with no ribs visible, and just barely a bit of hip if you look very close. He only eats 1 cup of Kirkland twice daily. Jose's the one I've mentioned before as being the most laid back grey I've ever met. My friend says that as she leaves for work, Jose gets into his usual position on the couch. Some days her fiance stays home, and he says that sometimes Jose never moves the entire day - doesn't even shift position!