Greyhound Puppy

[onrushpam]

Although interesting to note that AKC greys have significantly lower rates of osteo. Not exactly sure what they have increased rates of compared to NGA greys.

 

Well, first, AKC is a registry and there are a number of dogs registered both AKC and NGA. So, you can't really label it that way.

However, the majority of AKC registered greyhounds come from a very small gene pool.

 

Please quote the source of this info about osteo. From what I have read/learned, AKC greys not only have an equal chance of osteo, but also have a MUCH higher chance of heart problems and some other really nasty inherited issues. There are some AKC lines with truly awful health issues. The AKC gene pool is teensy, if you discard all dogs with any NGA lines. That's why some of us have fought HARD to keep the AKC greyhound studbook open to NGA greyhounds.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hubcitypam]

The AKC gene pool is teensy, if you discard all dogs with any NGA lines. That's why some of us have fought HARD to keep the AKC greyhound studbook open to NGA greyhounds.

And more power to you.

[krissy]

Although interesting to note that AKC greys have significantly lower rates of osteo. Not exactly sure what they have increased rates of compared to NGA greys.

 

Well, first, AKC is a registry and there are a number of dogs registered both AKC and NGA. So, you can't really label it that way.

However, the majority of AKC registered greyhounds come from a very small gene pool.

 

Please quote the source of this info about osteo. From what I have read/learned, AKC greys not only have an equal chance of osteo, but also have a MUCH higher chance of heart problems and some other really nasty inherited issues. There are some AKC lines with truly awful health issues. The AKC gene pool is teensy, if you discard all dogs with any NGA lines. That's why some of us have fought HARD to keep the AKC greyhound studbook open to NGA greyhounds.

 

I did quote in in my next post. The quote was written by Dr. Couto himself in Mosby's Small Animal Internal Medicine, 4th Ed.

 

Just so no one has to go looking for the post with the quote, here it is:

 

Do we really know that, though? I know of AKC hounds who died of osteo, and the sample is SO small...

 

Well, apparently Dr.Couto knows that. That was a quote right out of one of the Oncology chapters in Small Animal Internal Medicine. Well, I paraphrased but here is the exact quote: "There is a distinct genetic predisposition to OSA in dogs; for example, in former racing Greyhounds OSA is the most common cause of death (i.e.; 25%), whereas OSAs are extremely rare in show Greyhounds in the U.S." The chapter was written by Dr.Couto. I took special note because Greyhounds were mentioned. I can ask him to elaborate when I visit him in July and let you know what he says. However, I doubt he would publish a sentence like that without some sort of significant proof.

 

EDIT: Spelling

Edited April 23, 2011 by krissy

[Guest jfroggirl76]

 

We don't place many pups, but when we do I give 2 pieces of advice - exercise & socialization. Those are the 2 best things you can give your pup. Exercise makes for a tired puppy & a tired puppy is good. Once they get all their shots (usually 4mos) take them everywhere - walks, meet & greet, fundraisers. Expose them to everyone & everything. I have found that really helps as they mature.

 

I couldn't have said it any better, I have a 11 mos greyhound puppy who was the runt and she is quite a handful. A busy body unless she is knocked out sleeping, I have had 3 puppies in my life time including her and have 3 older greys but the puppy who we have had since she was 10wks old definitely test her limits all the time. Love her to death but it will be a couple of years before we decide to add another greyhound puppy to our pack. Here is a link of her running like a nut (she does this 3x's a day) & as you can see why I stopped her when she tried to drink from the glass.

Kyra in action

 

FYI, she has been enrolled in obedience classes since the week we brought her home and just earned her canine good citizen certificate 2 weeks ago. We are constantly enrolled in an obedience class of some sort.

[GreyAcresMom]

Neither one of the pups are close to being as calm as the ones off the track. The pups know a good bark will get me to answer them, but the older ones off the track just dontnget that concept. That is just ONE difference!!!

[Guest Swifthounds]

Although interesting to note that AKC greys have significantly lower rates of osteo. Not exactly sure what they have increased rates of compared to NGA greys.

Well, first, AKC is a registry and there are a number of dogs registered both AKC and NGA. So, you can't really label it that way.However, the majority of AKC registered greyhounds come from a very small gene pool.Please quote the source of this info about osteo. From what I have read/learned, AKC greys not only have an equal chance of osteo, but also have a MUCH higher chance of heart problems and some other really nasty inherited issues. There are some AKC lines with truly awful health issues. The AKC gene pool is teensy, if you discard all dogs with any NGA lines. That's why some of us have fought HARD to keep the AKC greyhound studbook open to NGA greyhounds.

 

 

 

 

I did quote in in my next post. The quote was written by Dr. Couto himself in Mosby's Small Animal Internal Medicine, 4th Ed.Just so no one has to go looking for the post with the quote, here it is:

Do we really know that, though? I know of AKC hounds who died of osteo, and the sample is SO small...

Well, apparently Dr.Couto knows that. That was a quote right out of one of the Oncology chapters in Small Animal Internal Medicine. Well, I paraphrased but here is the exact quote: "There is a distinct genetic predisposition to OSA in dogs; for example, in former racing Greyhounds OSA is the most common cause of death (i.e.; 25%), whereas OSAs are extremely rare in show Greyhounds in the U.S." The chapter was written by Dr.Couto. I took special note because Greyhounds were mentioned. I can ask him to elaborate when I visit him in July and let you know what he says. However, I doubt he would publish a sentence like that without some sort of significant proof.

EDIT: Spelling

 

While I won't presume to know what Pam was specifically asking for regarding that Dr. Couto quote, I suspect she might be seeking what I and other were hoping to find in that chapter - citation to empirical data or the actual research study materials that led to that conclusion. Perhaps it wasn't included because it is presumably a text for students, not designed to provoke thought or interest, but to give information for them to absorb and regurgitate later. For any other purposes, except perhaps a depressing game of Trivial Pursuit, that statistic is pretty useless without the research underlying it. For example, if the AKC greyhounds are dying younger from heart ailments, GDV, or anything really, than their NGA counterparts, the overall incidence of osteo in AKC greyhounds wouldn't accurately reflect the genetic predisposition simply by many of them dying before the age when cancer of some sort is the inevitable end. Pretty much every mammal, if not killed by something else first, will develop cancer at some point. For research to be useful, it can't be merely a conclusion.

[Guest KennelMom]

Dash was born and raised at our house...an oops litter from a greyhound farm. Temperament-wise she is very much all greyhound. Just about the only difference from our retired racers is that she's a lot more easily trained. I'd raise another pup in a heartbeat! We enjoyed every minute of it!!

Edited April 23, 2011 by KennelMom

[Batmom]

Do we really know that, though? I know of AKC hounds who died of osteo, and the sample is SO small...

 

 

ALL dogs can get osteo, but AKC Greyhounds do not get it any more than any other breed (typically long boned breeds) versus NGA Greyhounds, where one in five is the current rate.

 

Words I heard from the great man himself, in person, at a lecture I had the pleasure of attending.

 

 

From the sampling on this site, those numbers are wrong, and AKC greys get as much more or more osteo than NGA greys.

 

ETA: I see onrushpam weighed in on this question. AKC numbers are so small that it really takes only 1-2 AKC greys to have osteo to equal the same rate as known cases of NGA greys. The published researchers can only statistify those cases that they see and/or that respond to their surveys or calls for biopsy reports. In the context of show-dog breeding vs. retired racing greyhounds, they're going to get far more -- and far more accurate -- reports from the latter.

Edited April 23, 2011 by Batmom

[Guest KennelMom]

I would wonder where Dr C got his data...owner or breeder reported?? If so, there may be quite a bit of under-reporting. Breeder can be really guarded about what "defects" they have in their lines.

[cleptogrey]

felix was part of an opps litter that was orphaned at 4 days. so, being hand raised by a devouted group of volunteers he has a completely different relationship to people. he came to us at 7 weeks. as a pup he was a lot easier than any of the saluki pups i had! he wanted to train and work, loving to everyone and anyone and goofy as can be. he has learned a lot from the track girls in the house, but still plays like a regular dog- a strong fast dog who never misses a ball, runs like the wind and knocks us over if we are in the way! yup, he's a sighthound all the way, caught his first bird at 11 weeks!

 

as to osteo:he is of completely differernt lines than emily who i lost to osteo. unfortunatley my new gal, annie, has 1/2 of late emily's lines and 1/2 of felix's lineage. i think that's how she snuck into our hearts, she was just too familiar to us as a foster and it felt like she had always lived here. time will tell, after loosing a pup to osteo one knows that there is always the possibility.

[onrushpam]

For example, if the AKC greyhounds are dying younger from heart ailments, GDV, or anything really, than their NGA counterparts, the overall incidence of osteo in AKC greyhounds wouldn't accurately reflect the genetic predisposition simply by many of them dying before the age when cancer of some sort is the inevitable end. Pretty much every mammal, if not killed by something else first, will develop cancer at some point. For research to be useful, it can't be merely a conclusion.

 

Good point.

Our dog, Isaac, was AKC registered and a conformation champion. But, he was line-bred on a NGA dog (she was his grandmother on the dam side, great-grandmother on the sire side). So, he was really a half-and-half. He suffered from congestive heart failure for many years. Our vet expected him to die at least 2 years before he did. But, we nursed him along. He also had two instances of oral cancer (squamous cell carcinoma). At 13.5, he died from osteo.

 

I do know that there are certain cardiac problems that frequently plague AKC greyhounds and are never seen in NGA dogs.

And, Greyhound Hereditary Neuropathy is a horrible disease, restricted 100% to greyhounds from certain AKC lines. It is unknown in all other breeds and in greyhounds not carrying those particular bloodlines. Yet, some continue to breed dogs from those lines.

 

 

 

 

 

[krissy]

While I won't presume to know what Pam was specifically asking for regarding that Dr. Couto quote, I suspect she might be seeking what I and other were hoping to find in that chapter - citation to empirical data or the actual research study materials that led to that conclusion. Perhaps it wasn't included because it is presumably a text for students, not designed to provoke thought or interest, but to give information for them to absorb and regurgitate later. For any other purposes, except perhaps a depressing game of Trivial Pursuit, that statistic is pretty useless without the research underlying it. For example, if the AKC greyhounds are dying younger from heart ailments, GDV, or anything really, than their NGA counterparts, the overall incidence of osteo in AKC greyhounds wouldn't accurately reflect the genetic predisposition simply by many of them dying before the age when cancer of some sort is the inevitable end. Pretty much every mammal, if not killed by something else first, will develop cancer at some point. For research to be useful, it can't be merely a conclusion.

 

The textbook is not intended soley for students. It is pretty much THE textbook of small animal internal medicine used in the profession right now. That means students, interns, residents, veteran vets. While there is no in-text citation there is a list of about 10 references for the osteosarcoma section. I'm currently studying from 7 AM to 2 AM every day for the last 3 weeks for final exams so I don't really have the time to find all those resources and look them up and read them all, but I will post them all here if anyone is actually interested.

 

I also said I'd be more than happy to ask Dr. Couto to elaborate on that statement when I saw him, but I guess no one is interested in that. I simply stated something that I've read from a very highly reputable text from a very well regarded vet. Yes, that's a short statement and there's probably more to it. I simply threw it out there for interest sake. What you choose to do with it is up to you.

[Guest Swifthounds]

The textbook is not intended soley for students. It is pretty much THE textbook of small animal internal medicine used in the profession right now. That means students, interns, residents, veteran vets. While there is no in-text citation there is a list of about 10 references for the osteosarcoma section. I'm currently studying from 7 AM to 2 AM every day for the last 3 weeks for final exams so I don't really have the time to find all those resources and look them up and read them all, but I will post them all here if anyone is actually interested.

 

I also said I'd be more than happy to ask Dr. Couto to elaborate on that statement when I saw him, but I guess no one is interested in that. I simply stated something that I've read from a very highly reputable text from a very well regarded vet. Yes, that's a short statement and there's probably more to it. I simply threw it out there for interest sake. What you choose to do with it is up to you.

 

There isn't a whole lot of difference between vet students, interns, residents, and vets from the perspective of how they use the information there. For any of those categories, the focus is on treatment of disorders rather then prevention, and on a wide range of subjects. It's good for know a bit about a lot, but isn't particularly useful for things like breeding choices and health studies. I did pull up some of the work listed for the section on osteo on the off chance that the statistic might have been dealt with there and just not cited in the text and nothing appeared to deal with that quote, so it probably wouldn't be a good use of anyone's time.

 

The last time we had this statistic floated in a discussion thread, I did look into whether/what Dr. Couto has published regarding osteo (specifically things other than treatment) and don't recall finding anything. It could just mean that he has done research and hasn't yet published about it. It's not uncommon to speak to things either not yet published about or not yet finalized to create interest and support for your research. I would have just emailed Dr. Couto and asked about the source of the statistic, but I know he's very busy and I figured his time was better spent offering his treatment advice to greyhound owners in crisis. Certainly, if anyone is aware of the research or any publication, I hope they will share.

[krissy]

There isn't a whole lot of difference between vet students, interns, residents, and vets from the perspective of how they use the information there. For any of those categories, the focus is on treatment of disorders rather then prevention, and on a wide range of subjects. It's good for know a bit about a lot, but isn't particularly useful for things like breeding choices and health studies. I did pull up some of the work listed for the section on osteo on the off chance that the statistic might have been dealt with there and just not cited in the text and nothing appeared to deal with that quote, so it probably wouldn't be a good use of anyone's time.

 

The last time we had this statistic floated in a discussion thread, I did look into whether/what Dr. Couto has published regarding osteo (specifically things other than treatment) and don't recall finding anything. It could just mean that he has done research and hasn't yet published about it. It's not uncommon to speak to things either not yet published about or not yet finalized to create interest and support for your research. I would have just emailed Dr. Couto and asked about the source of the statistic, but I know he's very busy and I figured his time was better spent offering his treatment advice to greyhound owners in crisis. Certainly, if anyone is aware of the research or any publication, I hope they will share.

 

Well it's good that someone has looked into some of the resources. Personally my head is full of diagnoses, treatments, and preventions of bovine diseases. Honestly, I would love if they didn't include prevention because it would be a couple hundred less pages to read and know for the rest of my life. Contrary to what appears to be popular belief, we do learn a lot about prevention where etiology is actually known so that we can prevent. But that isn't the case for a lot of diseases, especially ones that are multi-factorial, or largely genetic. For example, we can't say much more than "Don't breed dogs with clinically or radiographically poor hips" because we don't have a test for genotype yet, all we can rely on is phenotype. And yes, we do realize that breeding based on phenotype is not perfect, but we don't know all the genetic factors yet, and we can't test for most of them yet. Which means unfortunately we can't prevent hip dysplasia yet. Doesn't mean the texts don't talk about it or we don't want to prevent it, we just can't. Medicine is an imperfect and constantly evolving science.

 

Whoever discovers a way to prevent osteo (or any other cancer for that matter) is going to be very rich and very well known. Unfortunately, I don't think that day is coming in any of our life times.

 

I will ask Dr. Couto about the quote in July when I see him and post what he says for anyone who is interested.

[Batmom]

AFAIK, from other presentations and questions to Dr. C., he is basing his statement on the data available to him.

[tammystroops]

We got Tessa Marie at the tender age of 12 weeks or so old. she was an oops puppy. to be an owner of a greyhound pup sure is one not to take lightly! when they

say "Land Shark" they mean it!

 

Answering your question, Tessa Marie obviously never ran on the track. she is not tattooed on her ears. HOWEVER, she has had all the characterisitics of greyhound behavior as if she did race.

I have seen many greyhound pups that never raced and went to homes at a young age have every bit the instinct of their counterparts.

When we went to Boston for the greyhound events there we entered our greys in the fun run. Tessa's first time was priceless.!!!!!! at first she wasnt sure what was going on, but when they lifted that box lid, she was running like that was all she knew! SHE WAS right there with her brothers and for a moment we thought she was gonna beat em! lol

 

Tessa will be 6 years old in two weeks! And if I were a stranger asking questions, the first one I would ask...where did she race?

because she looks like she is a racer. but the true race was the one she ran to in our hearts!

 

 

oh...by the way..we went through 56 pairs of shoes, one wallet, two credit cards, 1/2 a drivers license, and newspapers.

Tessa was definately a typical land shark

[Guest LindsaySF]

The oops pups I have met as adults have been, well, psycho, compared to their retired racing counterparts. I suspect it's because home life often lacks the structure, routine, and exercise that farm/track life provides. I have also met dogs that were tattooed and registered, maybe some training, but never raced. I think the dogs that don't get to the "track crate" and "leash-training" stages are a bit more unruly, need to learn more manners, that type of thing. But overall they are all still very much Greyhound/sighthound in temperament.

[JJNg]

Just some general thoughts on this topic. Temperament is always a combination of genetics with environment and experiences (nature and nurture). While there are some differences between greyhound farms and track kennels, with some being better than others, I think that the regimented schedule and routine is similar enough that the upbringing of track greyhounds is fairly consistent. I suspect many of the temperament differences between track-raised greys is probably due to inherent personality.

 

It is difficult to compare 'oops' puppies because the environment in which they are raised varies so much. Individual foster homes and adoptive homes vary greatly in their training skills, lifestyle, presence of other dogs to help teach the puppy proper canine social behavior, etc. These differences in upbringing probably account for a lot of the differences in temperament seen in oops puppies.

 

Among the greys I've met who were raised in homes off the track, they have the same chase/prey drive and intensity as track dogs. But their social behavior and house manners vary greatly depending on how much structure and training they got.

[Guest Swifthounds]

It is difficult to compare 'oops' puppies because the environment in which they are raised varies so much.

This can be very true. I was broadly forewarned about how greyhounds could be hell of paws. I picked the brain of anyone in the know on track life or raising hounds, and read everything I could. As a result, Vixen had a lot of the structure and exercise of a farm pup, but with some more varied experiences in training. She was reliably house tarined by 16 weeks, with only minor accidents where growth spurts happened and made the "I gotta potty" stance by the door a more urgent thing. She was solid muscle with lots of endurance by the time she was a year + and for free running I had to run her one at a time with the boys because otherwise they'd exhaust themselves trying to keep up with her and still not get there (and there was only a 2 year difference in age.) She is coincidentally probably the smartest greyhound I have had, so that was both an extra challenge and an advantage.

 

I've seen a lot of home raised pups that weren't raised with the same kind of structured schedule and there are differences. I just tend to raise all puppies that way now. So many people have potty training issues with IGs, but I never did. I attribute that in large part to the consistent schedule (and also the positive training).

[Guest weycoolgrey]

Our oops puppy, Daisy, is almost four and still has a LOT of energy. We don't call her Crazy Daisy for nothin! She is super sweet, but just very high energy. I often wonder how different she would be if she had raced - I'm sure environment has a LOT to do with it!

[Pepperjack]

Maybe it's just the puppies I know (Elphie and Bear), but they seem to be so much taller than track dogs. Probably just me, but I can sorta spot a non track pup based on looks.

[Guest KennelMom]

Maybe it's just the puppies I know (Elphie and Bear), but they seem to be so much taller than track dogs. Probably just me, but I can sorta spot a non track pup based on looks.

 

I think this is usually b/c the non-track pups are spayed/neutered at younger ages. Unfortunately, we had to spay Dash at about 9 months because of an issue related to her private bits (long story) and she is tall and much leggier/ganglier than I would have expected if she'd have been able to mature with her reproductive system intact.

Edited April 26, 2011 by KennelMom

[greytlucy]

Maybe it's just the puppies I know (Elphie and Bear), but they seem to be so much taller than track dogs. Probably just me, but I can sorta spot a non track pup based on looks.

 

 

Could be do to earlier neutering/spaying in pups raised in pet homes. Our Ziggy was ridiculously tall(33" at the withers) but had a very thin and lanky build, never having filled out. He was neutered really early, 8 weeks, before the adoption group would send him to us. While he may have been a tall greyhound no matter what, I'm positive his overall build(and likely some of his height) was due to being neutered so early.

[Pepperjack]

that makes sense. thanks y'all.

[Guest Hoolyghans]

[

Could be do to earlier neutering/spaying in pups raised in pet homes. Our Ziggy was ridiculously tall(33" at the withers) but had a very thin and lanky build, never having filled out. He was neutered really early, 8 weeks, before the adoption group would send him to us. While he may have been a tall greyhound no matter what, I'm positive his overall build(and likely some of his height) was due to being neutered so early.

 

Spike was like that too. Forget his exact neutering age but it was right around 10-12 weeks old. And please don't think I'm a pervert but he also had the tiniest...um...item ever