Most Say Dogs Can't Be Vindictive

[DevilDog]

I swear Sage is vindictive. Case in point:

 

She is potty trained. Oh yes she is. But she likes to pee in the house when she's angry at me. It rarely happens at home.. the last time was when we came home from Dewey, she peed on the carpet the first day I went back to work. I figured she didn't like that we were back home and I left her alone. But since I started dating Dog Park Guy, she's peed in his place twice now. She does it during the night while we sleep and I know she doesn't need to go out. She doesn't let a full bladder go, it's a smaller puddle, as if she were marking. Anyhoo, I'm thinking she doesn't always like staying over there. We have a routine at home, and there is no routine at DPG's. She doesn't have a proper bed there either... she's been sleeping on the couch. Last night we were all settled in at home, and then I uprooted Roscoe and Sage to spend the night at DPG's around 9:30. This morning we found a pee puddle on the carpet. Ok, my bad. I'm bringing their beds and blankets over to DPG's this weekend. I guess I need to make it more comfortable for them now that we spend half the week there.

 

Well it certainly sounds vindictive. But I suppose more likely, she's just being a dog, showing her displeasure.

 

Thoughts?

Edited January 31, 2011 by DevilDog

[Guest BlueCrab]

Oh, dogs can definitely be vindictive. When I was in college I brought home a cute fluff ball named Ajax. Grew up to look like a 20-lb pomeranian. Smart as a whip and could be really spiteful. If he was bad (stole something and took it to his crate), you'd have to banish him to the backyard to get it out of his crate, of which he was very possessive. He'd follow your direction to go out, but he'd stomp out the back door, grumbling the whole way out, then he'd sit on the patio and snarl and gnash his teeth at you while you watched thru the window. It was quite funny to watch him sit out there by himself, very obviously complaining at you.

 

When DH and I married, Ajax stayed with my parents. Loved, loved, loved, loved my father. Dad had a stroke in August 97 and was taken back to the hospital in Dec 97 for a routine visit - where he died quite suddenly. Long story....sorry. But the upshot is that Ajax was furious with my mother that he took her favorite person away. Just about every day after that for the next...what, 4 years? Ajax would pee in mom's house. Always in the kitchen where it would do no damage. Mom swore that he couldn't hold it for the 6 hours or so that she was out. Yes he could. When I'd take him to my place while mom traveled, he'd hold it for 12 hours while DH and I were at work. He had an iron bladder and never peed in our house - ever. He was just pissed (literally) at my mother.

 

So they definitely can be vindictive.

[Guest Adrianne]

That reminds me of my little Macy. When she first arrived, she & I went through a little power struggle to establish who was the top b**** in the house. I kept telling her it was me, but she kept insisting it was her. So, if I ever corrected her for anything, she would leave me a present either right behind my computer chair or on the floor in the bedroom by my side of the bed. Never anywhere else, and she was a dog who could get outside through the dog door anytime she wanted and a dog who would go out in a thunderstorm if she had to do her business. Anyway, once I convinced her I am the ruler of the kingdom, the presents stopped.

 

And my cat, oh, don't get me started. He's so bad that if I do something that displeases him, my family will say, "You'll pay for that later." And generally, I do. He's been known to seek out my photography magazines and leave.....well, I wouldn't call them presents. When he's finished, the magazine is trash. Doesn't do it to anybody else in the house, just me.

 

 

[Guest Bang_o_rama]

Cats, on the other hand, have got a little list....

 

~D~

 

Cats, on the other hand, have got a little list....

 

~D~

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Sounds to me like anthropomorphizing. I would say that your hound has anxiety over change of routine. Remember, dogs have the mental capacity of a 3-4 year old. Yes they can have temper tantrums, but they simply don't have the mental capacity for overt pre-meditated vindictiveness. Maybe the spot she peed on had been a previous spot peed on by another animal? There could be many reasons, but I personally would suspect anxiety of sorts.

 

Chad

[Guest Bang_o_rama]

Cats, on the other hand, have got a little list....

 

~D~

[krissy]

My rabbit Caspian is a jealous little bugger. People don't believe me because he's a rabbit, but I tell you those bunnies are smarter than they let on with their giant eyes and twitchy noses. It's all a cover up.

 

Last year I started spending a lot of time at my B/F's place and would only be home some days to feed and clean the bunnies. We would spend half the nights at my place and half at his. We ended up spending ALL our nights at his place because of Caspian. The poor neglected bunny was so furious about my giving this new man in my life (as far as the rabbit is concerned HE is the only man in my life that counts for anything) so much attention that when we would go to bed he would dig incessently at the floor of his cage. His cage is a metal, wire dog crate with a metal floor. He would dig for HOURS on end. If we sat up in bed to discuss what we were going to do the rabbit would be content and would stop. As soon as we laid down again he would start up again. We actually left my place at 12 or 1 in the morning some nights to go back to his place so we could actually get some sleep.

 

Now that we live together the rabbits have their own room and Caspian has settled a bit. But if I let him out with my boyfriend around it's almost guaranteed that the rabbit is going to pee on something that belongs to my boyfriend, bite him, or chew something that belongs to him.

 

Don't be fooled by the cute fuzzy ears. They're just waiting for the right time to take over the world.

[winnie]

I agree that it's probably anxiety. Most animals don't like changes in their routine.

 

I agree that it's probably anxiety. Most animals don't like changes in their routine.

[sarabz]

Yes, probably anxious about the routine disruptions.

 

But...

 

I had a cocker spaniel as a kid. Mom was always the last one to leave the house for the day and I was always the first one back. The spaniel would chew on Mom's stuff (shoes, jackets, books) and never mine.

[Guest PhillyPups]

I would think anxiety and prior pee spot from another animal.

[JohnF]

No, but you can make them appear that way which is practically the same as. If you're stressing they they'll do some kind of displacement activity (ideally repetitive for comfort) to take their minds off it. In their minds 'stressing' includes noticing an owner who isn't able to act consistently like carrying on a set of routines. And not staying in the same 'den' and then mixing with another 'pack' is just asking for it. Marking is an attempt to maintain turf and pack integrity.

Sart reading and using Calming Signals on that dog so that it knows you know what you're doing and have acknowledged its concerns.

http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1

 

I used to think my last cat was a vindictive hall carpet pee-er. Cat flaps, litter tray, never shut in the house... but it was the cats of the outside world reponsible for this and people walking in with stranger cat scent on their shoes. I remedied that and all was well until the cat got old and not wanting to bother so much about being clean (senility as much as kidney disease).

[TheFullHouse]

No, but you can make them appear that way which is practically the same as. If you're stressing they they'll do some kind of displacement activity (ideally repetitive for comfort) to take their minds off it. In their minds 'stressing' includes noticing an owner who isn't able to act consistently like carrying on a set of routines. And not staying in the same 'den' and then mixing with another 'pack' is just asking for it. Marking is an attempt to maintain turf and pack integrity.

Sart reading and using Calming Signals on that dog so that it knows you know what you're doing and have acknowledged its concerns.

http://www.canis.no/...cle.php?artid=1

 

I used to think my last cat was a vindictive hall carpet pee-er. Cat flaps, litter tray, never shut in the house... but it was the cats of the outside world reponsible for this and people walking in with stranger cat scent on their shoes. I remedied that and all was well until the cat got old and not wanting to bother so much about being clean (senility as much as kidney disease).

 

 

Excellent.

[DevilDog]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. I figured dogs can't really be vindictive, but it just really seems that way! I'm sure Sage just isn't happy I upset her apple cart and she'll settle. I'm going to bring their beds, blankets and some other things over there to make it more comfortable. Hopefully that helps.

[Guest mbfilby]

No one can tell me that dogs can not be vindictive. My bridge girl Dobie used to destroy my personal items when she was left alone. Anything with my scent.. remotes, phones, clothes, boots, blankets, the couch, etc. She was upset with me for leaving her, and took her revenge on my things, whilst leaving everyone else's things intact.

 

I still miss her..

[Guest redreed]

Oh I do believe they can be vindictive at the time! I don't think they are big on long term grudges, but some are very smart with long memories.

 

Tiger Shark (who had never, ever destroyed anything, not even toys) got furious at Coley when he yelled at him for eating a cheese danish. Tiger took himself upstairs immediately and SHREDDED the full-size egg crate mattress that was his bed. There wasn't a piece bigger than 3 inches left. I laughed so hard after we cleaned it up and I was driving to BJ's for a new bed that I had to pull over.

 

Now what kind of nimnut leaves a cheese danish in greyhound reach, that's another conversation. But Tiger was as angry as could be since he couldn't figure out what he did wrong, it was nose high and smelled lovely.

Edited January 21, 2011 by redreed

[silverfish]

Sounds to me like anthropomorphizing. I would say that your hound has anxiety over change of routine. Remember, dogs have the mental capacity of a 3-4 year old. Yes they can have temper tantrums, but they simply don't have the mental capacity for overt pre-meditated vindictiveness. Maybe the spot she peed on had been a previous spot peed on by another animal? There could be many reasons, but I personally would suspect anxiety of sorts.

 

Chad

 

Yep. Spot on. It's likely to be anxiety coupled with, perhaps, two or three other things including the repeat peeing on the same spot because of the smell.

 

 

No, but you can make them appear that way which is practically the same as. If you're stressing they they'll do some kind of displacement activity (ideally repetitive for comfort) to take their minds off it. In their minds 'stressing' includes noticing an owner who isn't able to act consistently like carrying on a set of routines. And not staying in the same 'den' and then mixing with another 'pack' is just asking for it. Marking is an attempt to maintain turf and pack integrity.

Sart reading and using Calming Signals on that dog so that it knows you know what you're doing and have acknowledged its concerns.

http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1

 

I used to think my last cat was a vindictive hall carpet pee-er. Cat flaps, litter tray, never shut in the house... but it was the cats of the outside world reponsible for this and people walking in with stranger cat scent on their shoes. I remedied that and all was well until the cat got old and not wanting to bother so much about being clean (senility as much as kidney disease).

 

Exactly.

 

No one can tell me that dogs can not be vindictive. My bridge girl Dobie used to destroy my personal items when she was left alone. Anything with my scent.. remotes, phones, clothes, boots, blankets, the couch, etc. She was upset with me for leaving her, and took her revenge on my things, whilst leaving everyone else's things intact.

 

I still miss her..

 

Um .. no. She wasn't taking revenge. She was displaying displacement activity, just like the dog who was yelled at and then destroyed a crate mattress. They get upset, they aren't clear on why or what to do next, so they do what dogs do. Usually it's chewing, vocalising or marking - or just plain pooping. Why do they run off and do it 'in secret'? Simple - if they start to do something right in front of you, they will be prevented and/or punished. Why did she choose your things? Perhaps because she was devoted to you, and seeking comfort in your smell, when the need for displacement activity overtook her?

 

Now, anyone who has tried to train a dog to do the simplest thing knows this: you can have a dog who does a perfect sit, down, come here, say 'please' or whatever in their own lounge, but without a whole lot of reinforcement training in appropriate places, that dog will not perform in the middle of a field, in a shopping mall, or in someone else's house. To a dog, it's a different thing. They might know the command for 'sit-in-the-lounge-next-to-your-bed', but to have them apply it to all situations requires you to show them that that's what you want.

 

Most experts agree that dogs can not make the association between past behaviour and present punishment, so why would you think they can take a memory of past behaviour and inflict 'revenge'?

 

It's kind of comforting to think of our dogs as strange-looking people in fur suits, but anyone who truly thinks their dog (or cat, rabbit, whatever) is being vindictive needs to read up on their normal behaviour patterns and social signals and do a little detective work. JMHO.

[Guest june]

What happens when DPG spends the night at your house? Does Sage get along with DPG? with DPG's dog (s)? Can DPG spend some one-on-one time with her giving her treats and making the experience positive for her? Does she sleep with you at home and maybe is not able to when you spend the night at DPG's house?

just sayin'

june

[Batmom]

Not vindictive. Just ordinary animal behavior as elucidated by silverfish, JohnF, Greyt_dog_lover. As JohnF points out, when we think things through from the animal's point of view rather than our own, we can find some likely problems and remedy them.

[cleptogrey]

o.k. now catagorize this behavior:

 

years ago i was visiting my saluki breeder, my 2 salukis and her 2 were in the living room w/ us. we were going to have a bowl of soup, placed it on the coffee table and told the dogs to "leave it". one of my salukis gave us stink eye, walked over, lifted his leg and pissed in one of the bowls! mmmm.....vindictive ?? .

 

 

it wasn't worth while getting"pissed off" at the dog, way to funny.

[Guest TBSFlame]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. I figured dogs can't really be vindictive, but it just really seems that way! I'm sure Sage just isn't happy I upset her apple cart and she'll settle. I'm going to bring their beds, blankets and some other things over there to make it more comfortable. Hopefully that helps.

 

It's really not vindictive but is stress related. Most greys hate to have their routine messed with. Memmie likes to bark at the cats next door. I tell her no barking. She barks, barks, barks, then I say NO BARKING, in a louder tone, she then will bark once more, really low, almost a whisper. She always gets the last word.

[4greyhounds]

Their is other dogs in the house and she is marking her territory.

[Guest Duke]

 

Hey! you met a guy at the dog park!! good for you. I'd like to meet a guy that way too!!

 

 

sorry off topic

[silverfish]

o.k. now catagorize this behavior:

 

years ago i was visiting my saluki breeder, my 2 salukis and her 2 were in the living room w/ us. we were going to have a bowl of soup, placed it on the coffee table and told the dogs to "leave it". one of my salukis gave us stink eye, walked over, lifted his leg and pissed in one of the bowls! mmmm.....vindictive ?? .

 

 

it wasn't worth while getting"pissed off" at the dog, way to funny.

 

Well, without being there and seeing/hearing exactly what happened it's hard to guess on motivation for that one, and I'm not a qualified dog behaviourist, but I do know that to credit the Saluki with human thoughts and emotions here would be taking anthropomorphism way too far.

 

My guess would be that your dog smelled a previous pee accident on the carpet under the coffee table and wanted to pee on it. He may have been a little stressed perhaps from being in a new environment with strange dogs, and thus less obedient than usual, or he may just be self-willed.

 

The stink-eye was probably either 'I know you told me to leave it but I really just have to go and pee on this particular place' or else 'I know you told me to do something but I can't remember what it means (or if it applies here) and I'm stressed ... so I'm just going to pee on this convenient high point'.

 

I took a dog of mine visiting once to do a home visit for a greyhound charity. This was a dog who was spotlessly clean in the house at all times, and yet he peed in her lounge. It was the only time he ever did anything like it, and he had absolutely no reason to do it other than 1) possibly there'd been a previous accident or 2) perhaps he was stressed - he'd bounced at ten years old, been passed around relatives, kennels and charities like a parcel and finally ended up with me. Who knows? Perhaps he thought this was going to be another new home?

[krissy]

Sounds to me like anthropomorphizing. I would say that your hound has anxiety over change of routine. Remember, dogs have the mental capacity of a 3-4 year old. Yes they can have temper tantrums, but they simply don't have the mental capacity for overt pre-meditated vindictiveness. Maybe the spot she peed on had been a previous spot peed on by another animal? There could be many reasons, but I personally would suspect anxiety of sorts.

 

Chad

 

Yep. Spot on. It's likely to be anxiety coupled with, perhaps, two or three other things including the repeat peeing on the same spot because of the smell.

 

 

No, but you can make them appear that way which is practically the same as. If you're stressing they they'll do some kind of displacement activity (ideally repetitive for comfort) to take their minds off it. In their minds 'stressing' includes noticing an owner who isn't able to act consistently like carrying on a set of routines. And not staying in the same 'den' and then mixing with another 'pack' is just asking for it. Marking is an attempt to maintain turf and pack integrity.

Sart reading and using Calming Signals on that dog so that it knows you know what you're doing and have acknowledged its concerns.

http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1

 

I used to think my last cat was a vindictive hall carpet pee-er. Cat flaps, litter tray, never shut in the house... but it was the cats of the outside world reponsible for this and people walking in with stranger cat scent on their shoes. I remedied that and all was well until the cat got old and not wanting to bother so much about being clean (senility as much as kidney disease).

 

Exactly.

 

No one can tell me that dogs can not be vindictive. My bridge girl Dobie used to destroy my personal items when she was left alone. Anything with my scent.. remotes, phones, clothes, boots, blankets, the couch, etc. She was upset with me for leaving her, and took her revenge on my things, whilst leaving everyone else's things intact.

 

I still miss her..

 

Um .. no. She wasn't taking revenge. She was displaying displacement activity, just like the dog who was yelled at and then destroyed a crate mattress. They get upset, they aren't clear on why or what to do next, so they do what dogs do. Usually it's chewing, vocalising or marking - or just plain pooping. Why do they run off and do it 'in secret'? Simple - if they start to do something right in front of you, they will be prevented and/or punished. Why did she choose your things? Perhaps because she was devoted to you, and seeking comfort in your smell, when the need for displacement activity overtook her?

 

Now, anyone who has tried to train a dog to do the simplest thing knows this: you can have a dog who does a perfect sit, down, come here, say 'please' or whatever in their own lounge, but without a whole lot of reinforcement training in appropriate places, that dog will not perform in the middle of a field, in a shopping mall, or in someone else's house. To a dog, it's a different thing. They might know the command for 'sit-in-the-lounge-next-to-your-bed', but to have them apply it to all situations requires you to show them that that's what you want.

 

Most experts agree that dogs can not make the association between past behaviour and present punishment, so why would you think they can take a memory of past behaviour and inflict 'revenge'?

 

It's kind of comforting to think of our dogs as strange-looking people in fur suits, but anyone who truly thinks their dog (or cat, rabbit, whatever) is being vindictive needs to read up on their normal behaviour patterns and social signals and do a little detective work. JMHO.

 

 

I never said my rabbit was vindictive or out for revenge, just jealous. I don't think he destroys my bf's stuff or pees on him or his stuff to be vengeful. He does it because he sees a new male impinging on his territory and leaving "scent" which he just feels the need to mark over. I just used it as an example of poor behaviour directed at a person.

[kudzu]

It doesn't help people to assume they know their dogs' motivations.

 

To quote Sue Ailsby:

WHY is not nearly as important as WHAT. Teach yourself to see what the dog is doing rather than worrying about why he does it.

 

WHY is not nearly as important as HOW. Teach yourself to see how the dog is being rewarded for a behaviour you don't want. Then you’ll be able to see how to stop the behaviour.