Is A Growl Ever Not A Growl? Not The Ear Groanie Sound.

[DocsDoctor]

Doc has a repertoire of at least three different growls, including a happy growl -

 

'play growl' - quite deep, used during exciting games with his teddy bear, etc

'happy growl' - breathier than the play growl, associated with being caressed, especially throat rubs and tummy tickles

'scary growl' - to warn off rude dogs, etc - higher in pitch than the play growl

 

Like you I was nearly startled out of my wits the first time he did the happy growl - it took me a little time to work out from the rest of his body language that he was just trying to tell me how relaxed and happy he felt!

[Guest Frankendog]

Wow this is all new to me! Frankie once did a low growl when DH was giving him a body rub but we both assumed he had had enough and was telling DH to bugger off. Now I'm not sure. Btw, holy crap those 2 pictures are scary! Seriously? This is a happy face??

[BertnLil]

I have a friend who had a Rottweiler who would do this with her--and ONLY with her. Kylie (the rottie) was the best behaved gentlest dog--and we always said it sounded like a contented sigh, or as others have stated, purring. The two shared a very special bond. That's what this sounds like to me.

[Guest wmlcml6]

Since Tracey takes such good videos, I think next time Jason and Rufus are playing, we need a video of this growl. It does sound like playfulness, but with each dog being so unique, it's impossible to tell without seeing it for myself. ;-)

[silverfish]

Btw, holy crap those 2 pictures are scary! Seriously? This is a happy face??

 

 

Seriously, that was a very happy face. Renie and I had a very close bond. Very close. She was my PAT therapy dog, so there was a huge amount of trust between us. I'd just been kneeling on the floor with her, rubbing her belly, and she'd been doing the 'leg wave' to get me to continue, but I was getting stiff so I had to sit back up in the chair. This was her happy, loving, playful 'pleasepleaseplease don't stop' behaviour. She'd do the air-snap and wiggle. That day, she was so demonstrative that I had time to fetch the camera and take a few shots.

 

I could let her air-snap so close to my face that I'd feel the breeze of her mouth snapping shut and she'd never, ever make contact. I miss that dog.

[Guest FrostyBottoms]

Frosty does this too. She will do it when we are rubbing her belly, then we stop, she will let out a low rumble of a purrrr sound, then brush her paws over her face as to ask for more belly rubs....at first we thought she was growling at us too, but like in your case, the body language (her being in a submissive state) didn't make sense. We know for sure now it's a purrr and she wants more lovin'. Good luck! I would probably muzzle him the next time you are in this situation, that way if he snaps, nobody gets hurt.

[Guest kydie]

I agree with "what does the dog's body language tell you". I have a pup that "growels"(if you want to call it that) when you rub his belly, getting his meal ready, I take it he is "talking" to me, and Jason needs to understand very few dogs, take a dislake to someone from out of the blue, they are NOT people

[Tracey]

Update 2/17: So we've been doing all the things talked about here. Jason's been feeding Rufus exclusively and giving him treats. The growls that make no sense (to us) have continued but gotten fewer and further between. There's never been a problem that we could explain, like Jason bothering him while eating, encroaching on his bed, etc, etc. Rufus and Jason have spent a lot of time playing together and that always goes great. They play fetch and Rufus always drops the ball or lets Jason have it with zero issue. Rufus has basically been really, really good. Until now.

 

What just happened was this. Jason had eaten lunch on the couch and afterwards Rufus came over wanting to lick the plate so Jason let him. After Rufus was done Jason was petting him and the next thing we knew Rufus jumped up and snapped at Jason, just missing his cheek. No warning. Now Jason feels like he's done trying because he feels it's only a matter of time before Rufus actually bites. We thought maybe Rufus was afraid of Jason due to a bad association with someone who Jason reminded Rufus of, but I don't see how Jason can come across any less threatening than he has .

 

I know Jason's feelings are hurt and I don't blame him for not wanting to get bitten. We were thinking about enrolling Rufus in obedience class and having Jason do most of the work with him, but now I don't know. He's still a foster but we were planning on signing papers for him, but now I don't know if it's a good idea. Makes me sad, but obviously something has to change to make this a working situation.

 

Any new thoughts? Any at all?

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

There is a little bit of a gap of events. So Jason put the plate on the floor, and allowed Rufus to lick the plate clean, then started petting him? Or was Jason petting Rufus while he was licking the plate? There is a distinction that needs to be made as there could be two different reasons for reaction. And is Jason 100% there was absolutely NO warning? Something as simple as Rufus stopping his licking of the plate is a predication of impending action. Lets say a dog is chewing a bone, you approach, the dog stops chewing the bone and watches you out of the corner of his eye, this is letting you know something. It is very subtle, but it is a warning. A simple wrinkle of the lip is another warning that people miss. They dont allways growl to let you know they are uncomfortable. You need to watch their entire movement, or lack thereof. Also, what did Jason do after the air snap? What exactly did he do? Did he act frightened, did he get mad, did he correct him, did he just look at him? Also, what exactly did Rufus do immediately after the air snap? Did he go back to licking the plate, did he cower away, etc. I am not sure, but it almost seems as if Rufus may not be afraid of Jason, but thinking he is on the same level in the household as Jason. You say Jason is feeding Rufus and giving treats, is he "HAND" feeding Rufus, or simply putting Rufus' bowl down? If he is not actually handing each bite of food to Rufus, that is what would really help this situation, as well as not giving him food in an uncontrolled environment (a plate on the floor not at breakfast/dinner time).

 

Chad

[Guest MaxwellEdison]

I have a thought on this, and was going to ask about it anyway- Max is completely docile, although we've only had him... nearly 6 months, I dont believe he would intentionally bite anyone ever. He loves everyone hes met. But, He does NOT like his ears played with. I can be petting him, and get around to his ear area, he will lean into it and start his ear growl- I can tell he wants them rubbed, but when I do he will almost panic and the ear growl turns to a sharp yelp. Every time. Youd think I had stabbed him, or yanked his ears. The only think I can figure is maybe its memory from getting the ear tattoos? So, I guess what I'm suggesting is maybe its ear sensitivity, although reading the other replies, it doesnt sound common... There ya go. Good luck.

Edited February 17, 2010 by MaxwellEdison

[Tracey]

There is a little bit of a gap of events. So Jason put the plate on the floor, and allowed Rufus to lick the plate clean, then started petting him? Or was Jason petting Rufus while he was licking the plate? There is a distinction that needs to be made as there could be two different reasons for reaction. And is Jason 100% there was absolutely NO warning? Something as simple as Rufus stopping his licking of the plate is a predication of impending action. Lets say a dog is chewing a bone, you approach, the dog stops chewing the bone and watches you out of the corner of his eye, this is letting you know something. It is very subtle, but it is a warning. A simple wrinkle of the lip is another warning that people miss. They dont allways growl to let you know they are uncomfortable. You need to watch their entire movement, or lack thereof. Also, what did Jason do after the air snap? What exactly did he do? Did he act frightened, did he get mad, did he correct him, did he just look at him? Also, what exactly did Rufus do immediately after the air snap? Did he go back to licking the plate, did he cower away, etc. I am not sure, but it almost seems as if Rufus may not be afraid of Jason, but thinking he is on the same level in the household as Jason. You say Jason is feeding Rufus and giving treats, is he "HAND" feeding Rufus, or simply putting Rufus' bowl down? If he is not actually handing each bite of food to Rufus, that is what would really help this situation, as well as not giving him food in an uncontrolled environment (a plate on the floor not at breakfast/dinner time).

 

Chad

 

Jason had held the plate while Rufus licked it. Rufus finished it, Jason set it aside. Only then did Jason start petting Rufus. I was there too, I saw the whole thing and there was no warning that I could discern. I've seen Rufus's warnings to the other dogs (who were not anywhere near him at the time of this incident by the way, so no misplaced aggression) and there was none of this to Jason.

 

After the air snap, both Jason and I were kind of stunned for a second, but I don't think Jason really reacted much. He just sort of sat back on the couch and said he was done. Rufus just turned and walked away. I was the only one who admonished him.

 

I actually have gone back and forth between the fear idea and the challenging Jason theory. Rufus has never reacted to anything either of us has done that a dog MIGHT consider threatening, like standing over them, petting them on their bed and so on. I don't know if this is relevant, but Jason often refers to Rufus as my dog because Rufus is so keyed into me. He is inches away from me anytime I make a move. He follows me all over the house. If Jason calls Rufus to him, he'll get up and go over, but he almost always goes to me first, even if I'm ignoring him. Any time Jason calls him over or asks him to do something, Rufus looks at me first as if he's looking to see if it's okay. Apparently Rufus thinks I'm in charge and maybe he's just challenging Jason for the second banana role? I don't know.

 

As for feeding, no Jason doesn't hand feed a piece at a time except with snacks. For dinner Jason puts Rufus's bowl on the floor, makes him 'wait', and then releases him with 'okay'.

 

Thanks for talking me through this. It is helping, I think. I am starting to think this is more challenge-based than about fear. Now the question is what to do about it.

[Batmom]

Jason on the couch and Rufus on the floor, or both on the couch, or?

 

Where (what body part) was Jason petting Rufus on? 100% sure no sensitivities there?

 

Can't remember how old Rufus is?

 

How does Rufus interact with the other dogs?

[Tracey]

Jason on the couch and Rufus on the floor, or both on the couch, or?

 

Where (what body part) was Jason petting Rufus on? 100% sure no sensitivities there?

 

Can't remember how old Rufus is?

 

How does Rufus interact with the other dogs?

 

Jason on couch, Rufus on floor with all the room in the world around him. Rufus was in no way boxed in. Jason was petting Rufus's head and neck. He loves having his ears rubbed inside and out, likes head pets, likes neck rubs, loves chin scratches. No sensitivities whatsover. Rufus will be 3 in April. Rufus is as good with the other dogs as they are with each other; occasional snark, but that's true of any of them. The other three sleep on our bed together at times but he does not, but he has no issues being in adjacent dog beds to them and they all play well in the yard.

[Guest GreyBrindle]

I'm a noob so hope this helps...Our Connie, who is normally very submissive and shy has aggressive reactions (low growl followed by a snap) if she is approached, feels restrained, or stared upon whenever we are in a close range/head-on situation. The first time scared us because well she seems so docile 99% of the time and her reactions just come out of the blue. I'm guessing you guys are approaching your dog in a similar manner. For example, our dog has displayed this behavior three times to us and well here are the situations:

 

1. My wife got down on the ground at eye level and hugged Connie (wrapped her arms around her) head on and Connie growled. Connie was standing and my wife was down at her level. We had just been playing with Connie running around the house.

 

2. Connie was laying down and I got on the ground to rub her belly while she was laying on her side. I hovered over her head and proceeded to rub her back at the same time. She must have felt I was restraining her with both my arms and she growled at me and moved her head as if she was going to snap. Connie had been laying down peacefully for at least an hour or so before I approached her.

 

3. Again she was laying down and I lay down next to her to pet her. We were facing each other and I reached out to pet her head. I guess I was too close to be facing her and holding her head because she growled and took a light snap. This time though I gave a very angry (I'm a pretty calm person myself) "NO STOP IT!"

 

It almost seems to me from your descriptions that at some moment Jason could have approached your dog in a similar position causing it to growl and snap. My understanding is that some greys do not like face time. Maybe the manner in which he is petting him makes the dog feel restrained and eventually lets out a growl and snap. For the picture in my sig I zoomed in rather than get close to her so as to avoid a growl.

 

Hope that helps to at least eliminate another theory.

 

 

 

 

 

[silverfish]

Hmm. Sounds as if it might possibly be a miscommunication problem. I'm just guessing, since I'm not there, but from what you're saying, it seems that maybe Rufus feels safe with you because you understand dogs, perhaps better than Jason does. Often people will be on excellent terms with dogs because they're clued in on the dogs' body language, but they don't necessarily know how good they are because it's all automatic. So, what I'm saying is, maybe you're one of these people, but Jason is not, and you're not conscious of how much you know, so it's not easy to see that Jason isn't so hot at it? As I say, just a guess. With most dogs it wouldn't matter too much, but Rufus is clearly a dog that needs a little more careful handling, for whatever reason.

 

The only thing I can suggest is that you get a decent book on dog social behaviour and signals, and both read it. Jason may get a lightbulb moment. Who knows? It's worth a try anyway. I'd recommend Patricia McConnell's 'The other end of the leash' and Stanley Coren's 'How to speak dog'. Both are very readable and excellent at pointing out how we can unconsciously challenge a dog and/or make him fearful, all in the name of love .. and misunderstanding.

[Tracey]

I'm a noob so hope this helps...Our Connie, who is normally very submissive and shy has aggressive reactions (low growl followed by a snap) if she is approached, feels restrained, or stared upon whenever we are in a close range/head-on situation. The first time scared us because well she seems so docile 99% of the time and her reactions just come out of the blue. I'm guessing you guys are approaching your dog in a similar manner. For example, our dog has displayed this behavior three times to us and well here are the situations:

 

1. My wife got down on the ground at eye level and hugged Connie (wrapped her arms around her) head on and Connie growled. Connie was standing and my wife was down at her level. We had just been playing with Connie running around the house.

 

2. Connie was laying down and I got on the ground to rub her belly while she was laying on her side. I hovered over her head and proceeded to rub her back at the same time. She must have felt I was restraining her with both my arms and she growled at me and moved her head as if she was going to snap. Connie had been laying down peacefully for at least an hour or so before I approached her.

 

3. Again she was laying down and I lay down next to her to pet her. We were facing each other and I reached out to pet her head. I guess I was too close to be facing her and holding her head because she growled and took a light snap. This time though I gave a very angry (I'm a pretty calm person myself) "NO STOP IT!"

 

It almost seems to me from your descriptions that at some moment Jason could have approached your dog in a similar position causing it to growl and snap. My understanding is that some greys do not like face time. Maybe the manner in which he is petting him makes the dog feel restrained and eventually lets out a growl and snap. For the picture in my sig I zoomed in rather than get close to her so as to avoid a growl.

 

Hope that helps to at least eliminate another theory.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your input, but none of this has ever been applicable. The only times Rufus has growled at Jason are times when Rufus has approached Jason and not the other way around. Jason's either been sitting on the couch or the floor with his back to the wall minding his own business, Rufus has come up in a friendly manner, even wagging, kissing, etc, and without any apparent provocation, will suddenly growl at Jason. We have had 7 dogs since we've been together, including the four Greyhounds we currently have, and none of them has ever once behaved in this way. We both understand what a "typical" dog might consider threatening and never has Jason been doing any of this when Rufus growls and/or snaps. That's why this is so perplexing.

[Batmom]

One possibility is that he is a little touchy/ticklish about something (ears, face, mouth, vision, etc.) even tho he might not react to it when examined in a more structured way. But, thorough exam of whatever parts Jason might have been petting/getting close to is in order IMHO. (Example: Don't scritch Joseph's butt. Actually, he's OK with brief gentle scritchies, but he'd get wild and snappish if you did it when he first came home. There is nothing wrong with his butt. He's really really ticklish is all.)

 

Might also be worth keeping his and Jason's interaction *not* face-to-face where possible and teaching some commands such as "sit," "go lie down," "come get scritchies," etc. so as to structure his interactions with you more.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Thats another thing I was thinking of also (from what Batmom says). My girl Olive is fine with one exeption, she FREAKS out if I grab her back legs as she is walking past me or if I come up behind her. She has no issues if Jen does this, but when I do it she screams bloody murder and air snaps. She doesnt even think about biting me, but she snaps at the air in the opposite direction of me. The reason I say she wouldnt bite me is that the first time this happened, she was walking into the house when I was trying to wipe her feet off (muddy) and my head was down next to her body as I grabbed both legs with my hands, she screamed, turned towards me, then turned the opposite way and air snapped. Maybe your boy has some odd issue around his ears or head? Think back to each time he reacts this way, what place exactly is Jason touching, and "how" is he touching? Just another idea for this perplexing situation.

 

Chad

[Guest tatahills]

Hi Tracey,

 

I would try having your DH ignore him when he comes up and wants attention. Some dogs think that they are controlling the situation when they discover that when I approach and ask for attention I get it. The dog can interrupt that as being in charge. Dog walks over, sensitive man, gives me attention, I growl when I've had enough, he backs off and feels insecure. Dogs will ignore other dogs when they haven't earned their way into the pack. See if your DH can change his state of mind. Not thinking and worrying if the dog likes him. Instead, I'm not welcoming you into our pack until you act appropriately. If your DH is feeling defeated, this will only get worse.

 

I usually only set the rules for this type of dog. I don't go out of my way to praise them or give them any extra attention accept for fulfilling their basic needs and setting boundaries. This gives them an opportunity to watch the pack function and find their way into the pack by acting appropriately. The focus should be the dog earning his way into the existing pack and not you and your DH trying to get the dog to like you.

 

Good luck.

[FiveRoooooers]

Tracey, where are *you* when Rufus does his thing with Jason? If Rufus perceives you as his, he may be “protecting” you from Jason. Just a thought that I didn’t see mentioned.

[Tracey]

Tracey, where are *you* when Rufus does his thing with Jason? If Rufus perceives you as his, he may be "protecting" you from Jason. Just a thought that I didn't see mentioned.

 

Sometimes I'm in the room, sometimes I'm not. If I'm in the room, I'm usually about 5 feet away on the other side of our L-shaped couch.

 

I did a bunch of research yesterday and that, coupled with the 'thinking out loud' I did on here yesterday makes me really think that Rufus is challenging Jason for his spot in the pack. He only growls at the times Jason might appear most vulnerable in Rufus's opinion. We decided we're going to try NILIF with Rufus and ultimately take him for obedience training and see if that fixes things.

[YvetteVal]

After Gracie was with us for few months and starting to settle in she started growling at my son. The advice I was given here was that she was jockeying for position with my son. I hope that is all it is with Rufus because with a little training (my son) and adjustment (no more unearned priveleges for Gracie) we have never had another incident. Good luck!

[FiveRoooooers]

Sounds as tho you are on to something, Tracey, good sleuthing. Remember, that if you go the training route, Martha Bailey (Smartydog.) in Cheshire is totally greyhound savvy.

[Houndless]

I just have to add super kudos to your DH for being so patient and trying to work with Rufus. In general I don't think that many people would keep a dog and continue to work with them after several snappings. I know, I know greyhound owners are a breed all their own. I've been keeping up with this thread and just wondering if he snaps when DH is just touching his ears or if it happens when he touches him other places? I know that when I brought Tank home we had a couple of snaps and went to the vet and found out he had an underlying ear infection. Just a thought. Good luck and God bless you both for being so patient.

[kikibean]

We had an adopter who's new girl was fabulous with the husband and OK w/ the wife ...until the husband left the house. She'd literally chase the wife into the bedroom growling at her. They really wanted to keep her, so the wife enrolled in an obedience class with her. It ended up making a huge difference and the hound girl ended up being a fabulous pet. It couldn't hurt to ask around and find a good class to try.