More Puzzling Behavior From Penny

[Guest Tuxsmom]

ok...i'm getting more confused here...

 

Penny was prescribed phenobarbitol by my vet based on my observations of spasms/seizures. She's been on it 2 days now...not long enough to make a difference, I know.

 

I am just really not sure this is a seizure problem now, though...

 

Tonight, she is stiff and sore acting again...like when this problem first started 3 days ago. She has cried out once while just laying still, with nothing touching her.

 

Her neck seems to shorten back into her spine and trembles.

 

This is occuring at the SAME TIME everynight. Any thoughts? She has been to the vet twice during daylight hours, and vet has manipulated her neck in every position, manipulated her shoulders & joints, with NO response at all. Her bloodwork is all normal. I am so confused. Why only at night / early morning?

 

She has not had a full body spasm/seizure since 2 nights ago.

 

What could I be dealing with here? Is this a form of seizure and I just need to wait it out for the phen to start working? Is this the precourser/aura to a seizure? Am I still on the right track? argh... of course I'll bombard my vet with this tomorrow...just hoping for some insight.

 

Maybe this is a muscle thing and she just has enough adrenaline going at the vets to mask it?

[greysmom]

It's really hard to say without observing it. Try and video it with your phone or digital camera so you can show your vet.

 

If it's happening every night and every morning at the same time, it could still be seizures. But then I would want to know exactly what she's doing every day. It could be a reaction to something in her environment, it could be low blood sugar - especially if it's before breakfast or late at night. Or not seizures - has she been getting more exercise lately to cause muscle cramping? Has she been getting less exercise for the same reason? Have you switched any food or treats or water? Has she come into contact with any wild animals or been in rural areas to pick up ticks?

 

Just throwing some things out there for you to think about. One more thing - is it possible that this is just her stretching and GSOD-ing herself? My guys do this sometimes.

 

Hope you can find an answer sooner rather than later.

greysmom

[TheFullHouse]

It's not uncommon for seizures to have a pattern i.e. happen at the same time of the day or night. Saint always had his at night, usually around 11:00, like clockwork. If it is seizures, this wouldn't be uncommon. I'd keep writing everything down and if you have a camera phone with the capability of taking videos, get a video to show your vet.

[Batmom]

Today's longshot: What time does she eat and drink (and what and how much) in relation to when she has these episodes? What's her output (pee, poop) like in quality and quantity? Is she a gassy dog?

[MP_the4pack]

When in doubt, .......get second opinion.

 

[Guest Energy11]

All of these responses make sense. Yes, seizures can have a pattern, though.

 

Like the others, I try to get a video of this behavior, and go from there. A second opinion might be in order, too.

 

Good Luck! I know this is frustrating and scary! D

[CaliforniaGreys]

I can only imagine how frustrating this must be. I have no experience with this so all I can offer is to keep Penny in my prayers.

[Guest Tuxsmom]

ok...heading to specialist recommended by my vet. My vet still thinks this is not an injury/muscle thing, but she wants a second opinion as well.

 

regarding feeding: this has been the pattern for the past 4 days: feeding times have remained constant...

 

7:30 am. Penny wakes up stiff, but nothing noticeable going on in the neck area, maybe slight trembling.. She eats dry kibble & goes out. Pees & poops all normal.

 

3:30 pm. I get home. penny is bouncey, energetic, limber. Gets a treat. Pees.

 

7:00 pm. Dinner-dry kibble. Quiet time watching tv. Penny not playing with stuffies like normal. Goes outside, pees normal.

 

9:00 pm. Last trip out. pees sometimes poops. Stiff. Neck shortens & spasms. Acts wary if I touch her, skin jumps at touch. Sometimes cries out when nothing is touching her. Sometimes cries out if I touch her. Only had actual seizure/spasm one night. Goes to bed stiff and seems in pain.

 

Seems to be a pattern of nightime is worse / daytime gets better. She is stiff for 8 hours after dinner, but great 8 hours after breakfast. Stiff before bed, gets better after waking.

 

Heading off to 2nd vet now.... thank you for all your thoughts & puzzling this out with me

 

[greypuppyluv]

I'm not sure if these would cause the problems she has, but has she been tested for tick borne diseases?

[TheFullHouse]

I'm anxious to see what the specialist says.

[CaliforniaGreys]

Anxious to hear

[Guest SusanP]

Waiting for word and hoping for something clear and easily fixed.

[Guest Tuxsmom]

The neurological exam was not good.

 

Penny does not have a blink reflex, her pupils do not respond to light, her hind 2 legs do not respond appropriately, and all 4 legs don't do something else right. I have a report with a bunch of technical jargon.

 

She is neurologically deficit.

 

The possible cause list is short: central lesion: neoplasia (brain lesion or tumor)

 

the specialist told me Penny's kind of seizures cannot be controlled with medication. Only dogs who return to neurological completeness in between episodes benefit from medication.

 

My only treatment option is an MRI. If the MRI finds an encapsulated tumor, it can be removed. If the tumor is large or has runners, nothing can be done. If nothing is found, then spinal fluid is drawn from the cerebral cortex to search for infectious diseases. This specialist does not believe Penny has an infectious disease of spinal fluid because of her lack of abnormal bloodwork.

 

Penny is not in any pain. Her crying out is simply a vocalization during seizure activity. Common with "cerebral seizures".

 

The specialist believes Penny can see ok, for now. This may change.

 

I am SO angry at myself because I cannot afford to get her an MRI right now. I hate myself for not being able to provide for her. She deserves every treatment available, and I would sacrifice anything. I am a person who has spent over $5,000 per year on vet care for my multiple animals for the past 5 years, yet I find myself in a position right now that I can't do it. I feel so guilty. I am so sorry, Penny.

 

 

The ultimate result is that Penny's seizures will most likely get worse until she has the one catastrophic one.

[Guest greytloves]

 

You need a big group hug

[CaliforniaGreys]

For God sake, I am so sorry it wasn't better news.

I know, believe me I know this seems easier said than done, but please try not to beat yourself up over what you can and can not afford.

It doesn't make you love her any less and Penny knows how much you love her.

Edited June 26, 2009 by cbudshome

[greysmom]

I second what Claudia said. Not having enough money doesn't decrease the amount of love between you one little bit. I am so sorry the diagnosis was such a downer.

 

Please don't give up! Call the imaging center and see if they can set up a payment plan, or if they have a fund to help patients who have trouble paying. I'm not saying you must go into debt, but I know how frustrating it is to have a plan but not being able to accomplish it because of money.

 

On the other hand, if the treatment is the same no matter what they find on the MRI, perhaps it can wait for a while. Would you be able to have the surgery if they did find an encapsulated tumor? Would you opt for palliative care instead? Are there drugs that can help her manage the symptoms even if they don't "cure" her?

 

Give Penny a big hug and a kiss from us!

greysmom

[Guest Energy11]

The neurological exam was not good.

 

Penny does not have a blink reflex, her pupils do not respond to light, her hind 2 legs do not respond appropriately, and all 4 legs don't do something else right. I have a report with a bunch of technical jargon.

 

She is neurologically deficit.

 

The possible cause list is short: central lesion: neoplasia (brain lesion or tumor)

 

the specialist told me Penny's kind of seizures cannot be controlled with medication. Only dogs who return to neurological completeness in between episodes benefit from medication.

 

My only treatment option is an MRI. If the MRI finds an encapsulated tumor, it can be removed. If the tumor is large or has runners, nothing can be done. If nothing is found, then spinal fluid is drawn from the cerebral cortex to search for infectious diseases. This specialist does not believe Penny has an infectious disease of spinal fluid because of her lack of abnormal bloodwork.

 

I, too, CANNOT afford an MRI for Curfew! He is does NOT have symptoms as serious as Penny's, but we have had some incidents, but they ARE being controlled with 190 mg of Phenobarbitol and 20 mg. of Enalapril for blood pressure, daily. PLEASE do NOT beat yourself up about the MRI!! I have "been there, done that .. " I was even going to take Curfew to OSU after Mt, Hounds. for a neuro workup and MRI, BUT SS Disability did not go back to when my DH's disability started, and we are now in appeal, so OSU is on the back burner. I FEEL your baby's seizures WILL respond to VALIUM! Please, please ask the vet for trans-rectal Valium, which is JUST liquid Valium, in a syringe, 10 mg, drawn up,and can be administered rectally, (*without the needle, of course) when she is having her seizures. I am NOT a vet, but, please, as least ASK about this! I have a pre-loaded trans-rectal Valium syringe on top of my frig, just in case. WE FEEL FOR YOU! Love, Dee and Curfew!

 

 

 

Penny is not in any pain. Her crying out is simply a vocalization during seizure activity. Common with "cerebral seizures".

 

The specialist believes Penny can see ok, for now. This may change.

 

I am SO angry at myself because I cannot afford to get her an MRI right now. I hate myself for not being able to provide for her. She deserves every treatment available, and I would sacrifice anything. I am a person who has spent over $5,000 per year on vet care for my multiple animals for the past 5 years, yet I find myself in a position right now that I can't do it. I feel so guilty. I am so sorry, Penny.

 

 

The ultimate result is that Penny's seizures will most likely get worse until she has the one catastrophic one.

 

 

... somehow, this got posted in YOUR post... sorry!

 

 

I, too, CANNOT afford an MRI for Curfew! He is does NOT have symptoms as serious as Penny's, but we have had some incidents, but they ARE being controlled with 190 mg of Phenobarbitol and 20 mg. of Enalapril for blood pressure, daily. PLEASE do NOT beat yourself up about the MRI!! I have "been there, done that .. " I was even going to take Curfew to OSU after Mt, Hounds. for a neuro workup and MRI, BUT SS Disability did not go back to when my DH's disability started, and we are now in appeal, so OSU is on the back burner. I FEEL your baby's seizures WILL respond to VALIUM! Please, please ask the vet for trans-rectal Valium, which is JUST liquid Valium, in a syringe, 10 mg, drawn up,and can be administered rectally, (*without the needle, of course) when she is having her seizures. I am NOT a vet, but, please, as least ASK about this! I have a pre-loaded trans-rectal Valium syringe on top of my frig, just in case. WE FEEL FOR YOU! Love, Dee and Curfew

[TheFullHouse]

I was afraid of this when you told me Penny's age. An MRI is not a form of treatment, it's used for diagnosis only so you could spend a fortune just to find out there is nothing you can do. The instances of greyhounds actually having brain surgery are probably very small. Brain surgery on a human is very risky so I think it probably would be in an animal also. We aren't afforded the luxury of medical insurance for our pets so don't feel guilty because you can't afford it.

 

I'm so sorry this turned out the way it did.

[GreyPoopon]

I think Judy has said what I think better than I could have, but I do have one thing to add: I had an MRI done on a cat. The sole and only reason was to ensure that she did not have a tumour, because I didn't want to treat her for months only to lose her. I would not have subjected her to surgery. The MRI showed inflammation of unknown origin; I put a stop to further tests (and the second general anesthetic that would have been needed) because we weren't likely to learn much more, and it would not affect our treatment plan. I'm not at all sure I would do an MRI again under those circumstances. Yesterday, with the encouragement of the senior vet, I decided against an MRI for Cora, since he did not expect that it would add to what we knew.

 

Please please don't feel guilty. You are doing what you can. Just love her as much as you can for whatever time she has left.

[CaliforniaGreys]

And this may be a lousy example, but sometimes, all the money in the world will not make the difference we want.

I just really hate to hear that you're feeling guilty

[Guest Tuxsmom]

you are all right. My rant was just my inarticulate way to express my helplessness to fix this.

 

I'm not feeling guilty now...the rational part of my brain has kicked in. An MRI would add nothing to my situation, indeed.

 

thank you all so much for everything. I am interested in getting valium prescribed for Penny if my vet thinks it would help. But I don't think her episodes are severe enough yet. I'll look into it.

 

She's having another episode now. This came on so fast! I wonder if the phenobarbitol will help in a couple of weeks anyway, despite what the specialist says. Penny doesn't need to blink anyways...I'll get her some sunglasses.

 

my husband is busy setting up a Penny benefit. lol. he's preparing to cook & sell a whole bunch of pork dinners. sigh. I love that man sometimes despite himself.

 

[Batmom]

That's a hard diagnosis. I'm sorry it wasn't better.

 

Please don't feel guilty. You're caring for her well, and given the neurologist's assessment, if you had the money you might well choose not to do the MRI etc. anyways. FWIW, I probably wouldn't.

 

Do you think that during her "stiff" episodes she might be having some vision problems? That might explain some of the oddities of her behavior -- why she isn't playing, for example. If that were the case, perhaps there are some things you could do to help her. JillysSixPack and KennelMom and some of the others who have had dogs with severe vision problems might be able to advise.

 

Sending prayers that somehow or other, your girl will get past these episodes and continue to have a comfy life with her caring momma.

[Guest PhillyPups]

 

If wishes were real, whatever is going on with Penny would disappear, that is my wish for you. I know what you are feeling, Claudia and Judy will tell you the anger I had for myself, the guilt and feelings of failure cause I couldn't keep cancer out of TigerPower. I think it is part of receiving catastrophic news that devastates us to the core.

 

Penny knows she is so very loved - she feels it just as we felt it the first night of her episodes, and we felt the love through your words on our computer screens.

 

We are here with you, I am not as medically knowledgable as I would like to be, but I share your passion for our hounds.

 

to you, your wonderfully supportive DH and to Penny.

 

Pat with

Zeus, AnnaBanana, DonnieDude and Gremlin -

 

 

[KF_in_Georgia]

I'm so sorry that your options for Penny are so limited. And the big limit isn't an inability to fund the MRI--it's the limit on your ability to pull off a medical miracle, with or without an MRI.

 

Hugs to you and your DH, kisses to Penny...

[Guest Scouts_mom]

June,

I am so sorry to hear this about your sweet Penny. Hugs to you and your family. Do remember that dogs live in the moment. She does not know that she should have a much longer life and should not be having these seizures. The doctors say she is not in pain--good. She knows she is loved and has a wonderful home. That is what she cares about. Spoil her rotten and give her everything she wants. :grouphug