gracegirl Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Grace has spay incontinence. She's been on an herbal pill called Resources Canine Incontinence for about a year. I had a stint where I thought I'd try to wean her off the pills....wrong move! She was having accident every few weeks before the pills, but once I started to wean her off she started to have accidents daily. Recently she has been having accidents every few days, but she's still on the full dose of the herbal pills. Her pee is fine, no UTI, no change in anything else in our schedule. Even though the weather is yuck, she is still going out the same number of times and she pees each time she's out. She is leash walked for all outside time, so I'm very aware of her schedule. I'm sad that the pills are no longer working, I thought they were doing the trick for a while. Time for a vet visit and to discuss Proin. Grace, I'm so sorry you are having these accidents. They are no fun for you at all and I know you don't mean to! Quote Poppy the lurcher 11/24/23 Gabby the Airedale 7/1/18 Forever missing Grace (RT's Grace), Fenway (not registered, def a greyhound), Jackson (airedale terrier, honorary greyhound), and Tessie (PK's Cat Island) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KennelMom Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Alternative/holistic medicine and Traditional medicine each have their place. I hope you have good results with Proin. It worked well for our spay incontinence girl (as did DES). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BleusysMom Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 There are different Herbal Drugs......I tried 3 different regular drugs on my old Lady Lab.....but then at 13 years of age, she started to have Hot Flashes.....I mentioned it to Tess's Holistic Vet....his comment was "you know the Chinese have been dealing with the problem for many thousands of years....wanna try something from them?" I tried "RESTORE INTEGRITY" and it worked for us!!!!!! Much more expensive....but Tess did Very Well with it!!!! Soooo...ask about another type of Holistic Drug....maybe....?....??????..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greyhndz Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 I used compounded DES very successfully with my senior Robyn. What I liked about it was that she could taper down on the dosing. Initially she took it daily, but over a few months, only needed it every 1-2 weeks, and it completely eliminated her spay incontinence. It worked far better than Proin and I didn't have to worry about cardiovascular side effects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest greybookends Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Sheana has been on Proin for 3 years now with no problems. I'm sorry you are going through this. It's no fun for you or Grace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelWhispers Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Proin worked for Brooke but she experienced side effects after about 9 months of being on it, so she was switched to DES and did very well on it for many years. Quote Denise & Strider, Blake, Fields, Frank, FlippyDoo, and Momma Gail. The Bridge Angels Zack(Ags Marble Chip) 4/25/93-2/16/06, Wanda(Rainier Rowanda) 12/14/94-06/09/06, Brooke/Boogers(Rainier Restive) 01/01/99-10/20/08, Warlock(Rainier Rammer) 4/29/99-10/01/09), Patsie(Frisky Patsy) 5/17/96-2/05/10, Hatter(Cals Madhatter) 6/3/00-3/11/10, Dodger(Rainier Ransack) 4/29/99-4/16/10, and Sparkle(Okie Sparkle) 11/8/2000-1/28/11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Carla Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Be very careful with Proin. My Major was on it and he had a stroke, and the doc's at Tufts thought the Proin may have contributed to the stroke. If Grace does go on it, be sure to have her blood pressure checked! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batmom Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Is she having accidents where she squats and pees in the house, or is she leaking while asleep / lying down? Even tho her urine tests clean, it might be worth treating her as if she had a UTI before going to the incontinence meds, if you haven't tried that yet. More than one pup of my acquaintance has shown no UTI but responded to a course of antibiotics. Hugs and best luck for getting your girlie dry and comfy again! Quote Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in IllinoisWe miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Spencers_Greyt Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Spencer is on Proin. It's pretty innocuous so I don't worry about him being on it for long term plus it's fairly cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MZH Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Proin has caused strokes and death from stroke/cerebral hemorrhage in quite a few GTer's dogs, including one of mine. She had a hemorrhage that took only minutes to kill her. If nothing else works in other dogs we might have, then Proin would be a last resort option for me. PS. Sparkle was perfectly healthy when she died. Marcia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gretzky Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Wonder has been on Proin for 4 years without a problem. There are still random episodes of leaking but her Vet says that's normal. I discussed the Proin concerns I found here on GT with another Vet she went to for awhile and she had more of a problem with DES at her age (then 9). Don't know what that means but she's still on Proin. I have waterproof pads on all beds, including mine. The strangest thing is that she spends a fair amount of time sleeping on just the rug and there has never been a wet spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gracegirl Posted December 22, 2008 Author Share Posted December 22, 2008 (edited) Is she having accidents where she squats and pees in the house, or is she leaking while asleep / lying down? Even tho her urine tests clean, it might be worth treating her as if she had a UTI before going to the incontinence meds, if you haven't tried that yet. More than one pup of my acquaintance has shown no UTI but responded to a course of antibiotics. Hugs and best luck for getting your girlie dry and comfy again! Not squatting and peeing, she's leaking. There have been times that I've been sitting on the couch next to her and I'll look over and actually see the drip, drip, drip...at which point I'll wake her and have her go outside to pee. Until recently, she was having accidents mostly after dinner but before bedtime. It was simple to let her out and have her pee about and hour or two after dinner, but lately it's been at different times of the day. She has NEVER squatted to pee inside. It's rare that she does it when I'm out too. Don't know if it's because she is more relaxed when I am home and more likely to leak when she is more relaxed. She's been tested and treated with antibiotics with no change in the past. Never had any signs of a UTI at all. I'll discuss another round of antibiotics with the new vet thought, a different perspective from a new vet couldn't hurt. We only changed vets because of the move from Seattle to Portland. Thanks for the ideas. Edited December 22, 2008 by gracegirl Quote Poppy the lurcher 11/24/23 Gabby the Airedale 7/1/18 Forever missing Grace (RT's Grace), Fenway (not registered, def a greyhound), Jackson (airedale terrier, honorary greyhound), and Tessie (PK's Cat Island) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gracegirl Posted December 22, 2008 Author Share Posted December 22, 2008 Proin worked for Brooke but she experienced side effects after about 9 months of being on it, so she was switched to DES and did very well on it for many years. What were Brooke's side effects on Proin? I am aware of the risks (high blood pressure and stroke) on Proin. What about DES...what are the risks and side effects? Quote Poppy the lurcher 11/24/23 Gabby the Airedale 7/1/18 Forever missing Grace (RT's Grace), Fenway (not registered, def a greyhound), Jackson (airedale terrier, honorary greyhound), and Tessie (PK's Cat Island) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batmom Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 she was having accidents mostly after dinner but before bedtime I'm probably repeating myself, but, FWIW, Zema had leakage problems for a couple hours in the late afternoon / early evening (the couple hours after her dinner) for a long time. Sometimes she had a UTI, sometimes she didn't. Antibiotics usually helped -- always helped when she had a UTI, usually helped when she didn't. I tried everything under the sun that people recommended other than Proin/DES. Because of some particular Zema health features, I likely won't ever use those drugs. But, I tried bottled water, food changes, etc. etc. etc. And then I switched her to a no-salt, homecooked, extremely limited ingredient diet. And she stopped leaking, fussing, and going out an excessive number of times in the evening. I kept her on that diet for @ 5 months, then figured I'd try kibble again. She was fine on kibble for @ 4 months. Started having problems again. Switched back to the no-salt homecooked diet. Problems stopped. Guess what Zema will be eating for the rest of her life? I buy/make her unsalted treats as well. She may get a few small salt-containing treats a day but not many. She does get a multivitamin. She's happy, I'm happy. We did do a trial of low-salt prescription kibble. Didn't work. Quote Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in IllinoisWe miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelWhispers Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Proin worked for Brooke but she experienced side effects after about 9 months of being on it, so she was switched to DES and did very well on it for many years. What were Brooke's side effects on Proin? I am aware of the risks (high blood pressure and stroke) on Proin. What about DES...what are the risks and side effects? Brooke was about 4 1/2 when she started the Proin and she became anxious, almost like she was having a panic attack, and her blood pressure got high. I took her off the Proin with the consent of the vet and tried just about every herbal supplement I could find and she'd do good for awhile and then she'd start dripping again. My vet then put her on DES and she was on it for about 4 years with no problems. My new vet's opinion is that Proin works better for males and the DES works better for females. I think there are fewer side effects with DES, and I know it made a world of difference for Brooke. I hope you can find something for your girl...Brooke was miserable when she dripped because she constantly wanted to keep herself clean. Quote Denise & Strider, Blake, Fields, Frank, FlippyDoo, and Momma Gail. The Bridge Angels Zack(Ags Marble Chip) 4/25/93-2/16/06, Wanda(Rainier Rowanda) 12/14/94-06/09/06, Brooke/Boogers(Rainier Restive) 01/01/99-10/20/08, Warlock(Rainier Rammer) 4/29/99-10/01/09), Patsie(Frisky Patsy) 5/17/96-2/05/10, Hatter(Cals Madhatter) 6/3/00-3/11/10, Dodger(Rainier Ransack) 4/29/99-4/16/10, and Sparkle(Okie Sparkle) 11/8/2000-1/28/11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gracegirl Posted December 22, 2008 Author Share Posted December 22, 2008 Thanks AngelWhispers. Do you remember the cost of the Proin vs. the cost of the DES per month? Quote Poppy the lurcher 11/24/23 Gabby the Airedale 7/1/18 Forever missing Grace (RT's Grace), Fenway (not registered, def a greyhound), Jackson (airedale terrier, honorary greyhound), and Tessie (PK's Cat Island) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelWhispers Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Thanks AngelWhispers. Do you remember the cost of the Proin vs. the cost of the DES per month? The DES was quite a bit cheaper than the Proin, and I would not hesitate to use it again. It does have to come from a compounding pharmacy and your vet will call it in for you. I use to get 90 pills for $27 via mail, and she was taking 1mg every 4 days. It's been so long since she used the Proin, I can't remember the cost. I do remember that I was happy the DES was less than what I had been spending on the Proin and most herbal remedies. Brooke's dose was low and more often than some girls take. Your vet will figure out a dose to start and it can easily be adjusted as the sphincter muscles tighten up, or loosen as she gets older. My vet said the usual dose is 1-2mg every day for 7 days and then once every 7 days. If there's dribbling before the 7 days then you give the pill on the day before the dribbling starts. Hope that made sense. Brooke would leak on the 5th day, so she got her pill on the 4th day. We probably could have upped her dose and stretched the time out between pills, but the low dose worked and I didn't want to change it. It sounds like your girlie will do good on the DES if she's just leaking and not having frequent urination problems. Brooke could hold it for hours and hours, she would just drip a little because of loose sphincter muscles, an easy fix if you find the right medication. I'm sure others have other dosages that worked for their girls, and maybe they'll chime in here also. Quote Denise & Strider, Blake, Fields, Frank, FlippyDoo, and Momma Gail. The Bridge Angels Zack(Ags Marble Chip) 4/25/93-2/16/06, Wanda(Rainier Rowanda) 12/14/94-06/09/06, Brooke/Boogers(Rainier Restive) 01/01/99-10/20/08, Warlock(Rainier Rammer) 4/29/99-10/01/09), Patsie(Frisky Patsy) 5/17/96-2/05/10, Hatter(Cals Madhatter) 6/3/00-3/11/10, Dodger(Rainier Ransack) 4/29/99-4/16/10, and Sparkle(Okie Sparkle) 11/8/2000-1/28/11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodyksam Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 I used compounded DES very successfully with my senior Robyn. What I liked about it was that she could taper down on the dosing. Initially she took it daily, but over a few months, only needed it every 1-2 weeks, and it completely eliminated her spay incontinence. It worked far better than Proin and I didn't have to worry about cardiovascular side effects. I was going to type the same about my Daisy. She developed spay incontinence right after her spay surgery and it was severe at first. She was first put on DES six years ago, and has been on/off as needed. She's been off now for about six months with no issues. Our vet says that sometimes a small dosage of hormone is all that's needed to get the muscles working correctly again in terms of 'holding' it in. Regarding Proin - Daisy developed an allergic reaction, and we went back to DES. She just had a blood panel done and things look great, no issues from having been on DES. Quote Mom to Daisy (1999-2012), LB (aka Little Bit), and Sammy James (aka Sammy or Buddy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gracegirl Posted December 23, 2008 Author Share Posted December 23, 2008 Regarding Proin - Daisy developed an allergic reaction, and we went back to DES. She just had a blood panel done and things look great, no issues from having been on DES. So with DES do you just check blood annually to monitor and make sure all is okay? What do you have to look out for? The vet recommends complete blood work every year for dogs beginning when they turn 7 years old. Grace will be 6 in February so will start with that yearly blood work soon either way. Just curious if anyone has experienced side effects with DES. Quote Poppy the lurcher 11/24/23 Gabby the Airedale 7/1/18 Forever missing Grace (RT's Grace), Fenway (not registered, def a greyhound), Jackson (airedale terrier, honorary greyhound), and Tessie (PK's Cat Island) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BleusysMom Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 DES is what gave my old lady the Hot Flashes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greyhndz Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Robbie never had any side effects from DES. Not quite sure what the vet would be looking for in terms of monitoring bloodwork when on DES, but Rob was already having annual or semi-annual "senior" labs done at the time. The DES worked quickly, and within a few weeks, I was already able to taper her down to every other day, every 3rd day, etc. This does need to be compounded, but you can use either a human or a veterinary compounding pharmacy to do this. Here are a few: vet compounding pharmacies Robyn's DES was in capsule form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gracegirl Posted December 24, 2008 Author Share Posted December 24, 2008 Thanks for the info everyone! I have several things to discuss with the vet when we go in January...including possible antibiotics *just in case*, Proin and the possibility of increased anxiety and blood pressure, DES and what to look out for, a possible change in diet, etc. I appreciate everyone sharing their experiences. I had good results for the last year using the Resources pills, so now on to find something else. Quote Poppy the lurcher 11/24/23 Gabby the Airedale 7/1/18 Forever missing Grace (RT's Grace), Fenway (not registered, def a greyhound), Jackson (airedale terrier, honorary greyhound), and Tessie (PK's Cat Island) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stlgrey Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Ali my 9 year old grey has been on Prion for almost a year now with no problems. She developed a bladder infection last year and then the incontinence started. She gets one 50 mg pill per day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodyksam Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 Thanks for the info everyone! I have several things to discuss with the vet when we go in January...including possible antibiotics *just in case*, Proin and the possibility of increased anxiety and blood pressure, DES and what to look out for, a possible change in diet, etc. I appreciate everyone sharing their experiences. I had good results for the last year using the Resources pills, so now on to find something else. When Daisy was on DES back East (we lived in RI), and also here in CA, the vets checked her bloodwork annually to make sure there were no adverse effects. In humans, with higher doses, there were side effects, but from what I've read, the risk to canines is minimal if at all. Quote Mom to Daisy (1999-2012), LB (aka Little Bit), and Sammy James (aka Sammy or Buddy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaineysMom Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 Rainey's been on DES for about 2.5 years now -- with no side effects (knock on wood). She gets her blood checked annually as well. She takes 1 pill every 5 days (thank goodness for my Outlook calendar reminder feature! I'd never remember otherwise ). Works great Quote Kim and Bruce - with Rick (Rick Roufus 6/30/16) and missing my sweet greyhound Angels Rainey (LG's Rainey 10/4/2000 - 3/8/2011), Anubis (RJ's Saint Nick 12/25/2001 - 9/12/12) and Zeke (Hey Who Whiz It 4/6/2009 - 7/20/2020) and Larry (PTL Laroach 2/24/2007 - 8/2/2020) -- and Chester (Lab) (8/31/1990 - 5/3/2005), Captain (Schipperke) (10/12/1992 - 6/13/2005) and Remy (GSP) (?/?/1998 - 1/6/2005) at the bridge"Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut." -- Ernest Hemmingway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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