Strange Nighttime Behavior

[NeylasMom]

Around January of last year, Neyla started waking me up in the middle of the night acting strangely. I thought I had posted about it, but can't find the thread if I did. Anyway, my vet suggested it might just be due to gas, so I started her on a probiotic and the behavior went away (her food aggression with other dogs also settled down, so I think the probiotics really did help).

 

So Saturday night, I'm hanging out with DBF and Neyla starts exhibiting some of these behaviors again. It was mild, and ended quickly so I quickly forgot about it until last night. Last night it started around 11 pm and continued throughout the night, with her waking me up whining beside the bed multiple times. It was certainly the "worst" episode including last year's. So the "symptoms" - all it is is she wanders around the house acting strangely, as if she's seen a ghost. She's sniffing a lot, and looking around like she's a bit frantic. Her head is moving around a lot, even if she's laying down. She sometimes doesn't respond well to me calling her name, although last night she did. For the first time last night, she was also hesitant to do the stairs, particularly coming back up them. I started to wonder if she couldn't see clearly b/c she was keeping her head really low to the ground and sniffing as she took each stair, but I tested it out by having her take some treats and do a touch command a few times and there were no problems there.

 

The vet's theory was that she has really bad gas or other stomach upset and it's just throwing her off. I think that's still a possibility - I had given her a really large meal on Saturday (we feed raw), which could have caused problems. If nothing else, it causes a large stool volume, which is unusual for my raw fed pups. She is currently on probiotics.

 

I think it's likely this is still a stomach issue, but I thought I better post anyway and see if anyone has experienced this. FYI, around 4 she did finally settle down and she was fine this morning. In the past, the episodes were relatively short and she was always fine afterward.

 

The only other thought I had was that I've been treating her toe with Kerasolv on the pad and a steroid spray on the outside of the entire toe twice daily and I've noticed lately that she's licking it afterward. So I wondered if either thing could be a problem b/c she's ingesting it. But we weren't using the spray the last time this happened, and I can't remember if we were using the kerasolv. We could have been as the toe problem as already going on then, but we used it intermittently and I don't remember her licking her toe a lot back then.

 

Thoughts? Thanks all.

 

ETA: I forgot to mention that Neyla will be 10 in March. Also, Neyla is my "reformed" spook, but she never freezes when this happens. Aside from the stairs, she doesn't really appear fearful, just what could be considered confused.

Edited October 20, 2008 by NeylasMom

[Guest Greensleeves]

Ok, dumb question: do you let her outside when she does this? What does she do?

[NeylasMom]

Yes, in general I have been taking her outside when she does it. I dont' have a yard so I take her out on lead. In the past, she would pee, once she pooped and then we'd come in, where the behavior would subside, or not. Last night, I took her out and it appeared that she had to poop so we walked around the block. She did eventually poop and again we came back in. That was when it all started, around 11 or so though, and the behavior continued until around 4 am.

 

The other thing that bothered me was that she occasionally accidentally stepped off the curb, which again made me worry about whether she could see properly, but I think she could. She didn't appear to be off balance otherwise, it was just where there were steps involved. And that was never an issue before.

[GeorgeofNE]

I may be WAY off base here--but have you checked to see if you have mice or anything???

 

My parents had a dog when I was a baby that started acting VERY strange, and finally ended up digging a hole in the wooden floor of their screen porch; they had termites, and he could hear them!!!

 

Just something to think about--she may hear or smell something that you cannot!

[Guest Harry702]

I hate to suggest gloom and doom, but I'd consider taking her in for a vet visit to specifically address this issue. Some of what you describe suggests neurological impairment (confusion, sudden onset, missing the curb). It could be that she smells or senses something that's not really there and that throws her off.

 

Just a thought.

[Guest Speedhoundz]

I hate to suggest gloom and doom, but I'd consider taking her in for a vet visit to specifically address this issue. Some of what you describe suggests neurological impairment (confusion, sudden onset, missing the curb). It could be that she smells or senses something that's not really there and that throws her off.

 

Just a thought.

 

My first thought as well is that it sounds neurological--some sort of mental fog. Do you have any info on the side effects of kerasolv if ingested?

[NeylasMom]

My first thought as well is that it sounds neurological--some sort of mental fog. Do you have any info on the side effects of kerasolv if ingested?

 

No, haven't been able to find that so far. Kerasolv is around a 6% concentration salicylic acid though, if anyone would know? I'm applying such a small amount though, that seems unlikely to me.

[Guest EmilyAnne]

I hate to suggest gloom and doom, but I'd consider taking her in for a vet visit to specifically address this issue. Some of what you describe suggests neurological impairment (confusion, sudden onset, missing the curb). It could be that she smells or senses something that's not really there and that throws her off.

 

Just a thought.

 

That was my first thought too, that this is neurological related. Henry acted just like that after his big cluster, except I doubt Neyla has enough seizure activity (seeing as to you're not even aware of any seizure activity) to cause that much harm so somethng else that causes nuerological impairment? I know certain drugs can sometimes cause neurological side effects, such as the antibiotic Flagyl. (aka Metronidazole)

 

I'd stop using the Kerasolv meanwhile, if you can.

 

My first thought as well is that it sounds neurological--some sort of mental fog. Do you have any info on the side effects of kerasolv if ingested?

 

No, haven't been able to find that so far. Kerasolv is around a 6% concentration salicylic acid though, if anyone would know? I'm applying such a small amount though, that seems unlikely to me.

Some dogs are more sensitive than others.

Edited October 20, 2008 by EmilyAnne

[carronstar]

salicylic acid is chemically similar to aspirin, if she is aspirin sensitive, maybe that is the issue?

[NeylasMom]

Okay, so I went to email one of Neyla's vets to ask her about the Kerasolv and found an old email from the first time this happened. Here it is (sorry, it's long):

 

New question for you that I'd appreciate some input on if you have time and don't mind. A strange behavior popped up with Neyla about a week ago. Friends who were watching her reported that she woke them up around 2 am whining and nuzzling their hands (she never wakes up in the night). They assumed she had to potty, so tried to take her out, but said she seemed very disoriented and scared. Eventually got her outside, but instead of going into their yard, she circled aroudn their deck a few times, then peed on the deck and came back in. Since then, she has been back with me and has done something similar 2 other nights. Each time, she appears a bit out of it (but her eyes are not glazed over and she is somewhat alert and will respond to me when I call her to varying degrees). She spends the time frantically sniffing all over the place, sometimes at a trot, and looking around as if she's paranoid. The best way I could describe it is it's as if she's seen a ghost. Each time, I take her outside in case she has to potty and she will go (first time she peed, last time she pooped immediately) but then she wants to come RIGHT back inside and will freeze up if I try to keep walking her. Then she goes back to bed until morning and is fine.

 

FYI, I think you know this, but Neyla is a spook. I've done a lot of work socializing her so people don't notice it much, although I'm sure at yoru office she froze up at some point, but the freezing is an old behavior for her that she doesn't do much anymore. It confused my friends a bit as they weren't sure if she was just scared, but having now seen it myself I can assure you something abnormal is going on.

 

I did post on GT as well to see if anyone else had experienced this and the only people who had mentioned seizures. She's almost 9 and has never had a seizure disorder before. Someone also mentioned that she might be hungry. I had considered this when my friends reported hte behavior, but dismissed it once I saw it for myself b/c it wouldn't explain the confusion, etc. However, this morning her stomach was grumbling like you couldn't believe. It was SO loud from several feet away. I've heard her stomach do that a few times before, when she was hungry or once when she had ingested some feminine products she was having trouble passing (good times!). She is having normal bowel movements though, had one this morning in fact. Seems like it's more than hunger, or I wonder if hte hunger isn't a symptom of something. If anything, I've been feeding her extra lately and she is at a perfectly healthy weight (plus she's not getting long walks because of her toes so her food needs should already be lower than normal).

 

Do you have any ideas? Is there any chance her having been on Tramadol for a few months now coudl be doing this (she's on 50 mg 2x/day)? The only thing that's changed is that almost 3 weeks ago we started giving her weekly Adequan injections and doubled her glucosamine/chondroitin (she now takes 4 chondro-flex/day). I do have a call into my vet and am hoping to hear from her tomorrow. I'm also concerned we are missing something more significant going on that might be connected to the toe problems. I know it seems unlikely, but it's just so bizarre.

 

The thing is, Dr. Radcliffe gave us the adequan, and he's also the person who gave us the Kerasolv. I'm almost certain he would have given them both to us at that appointment as he's out in WV and we don't see him often. I remember now though that it wasn't generic stomach problems we chalked it up to, it was because we doubled her glucosamine/chondroitin dosage on Dr. Radcliffe's suggestion as well. When I told my vet that, it confirmed her suspicion of this being GI related. I did find a safety data sheet on Kerasolv and it says that if ingested it can cause serious GI irritation. I'm going to check our vet records to see when we got the Kerasolv, but it's looking more and more like the culprit.

Edited October 20, 2008 by NeylasMom

[Guest vickys]

One of our girls, Lucy, did the same thing a year or so ago. It WAS as if she'd seen something that wasn't really there. She would jump out of the bed and do a perimeter search for something we couldn't see, hear or smell. She was in a tizzy and uneasy for an hour or so until we could get her back into bed and cover her with a blanket. Then we'd coo and cuddle her until she fell asleep. She would sometimes lay on the bed, alert, looking around the room and sniffing when she would normally have been fast asleep. We figured she heard or smelled something (ghost is fun!) we could not and as it only happened at night and only a few times I haven't thought of it again until I read your post.

 

Vicky in South Central Texas

[Hawthorn]

I was wondering about a partial or focal seizure of some kind too but I see you have already considered that. My Sophie had some recent episodes of strange behaviour (fly-catching) which the vet said were considered to be a form of mild seizure. I did a lot of reading on the internet at the time about partial or focal seizures and it seems that during these "seizures" the dog sees or smells things which aren't there. Altered vision is also mentioned as a symptom on some of the sites I looked at. FWIW, we gave Sophie 10mg Valium when she had these episodes which calmed her right down.

 

Hope you get to the bottom of it.

 

 

[Bevd]

Is this just a night time issue? If so, I wondered whether she was having problems with her night vision and if that was making her feel anxious/stressed.

[Guest EmilyAnne]

I think also, that dogs who are already have or had in the past spooky tendencies, will likely respond more negatively to neurological impairment of any kind than a non-spook.

[NeylasMom]

I did a lot of reading on the internet at the time about partial or focal seizures and it seems that during these "seizures" the dog sees or smells things which aren't there. Altered vision is also mentioned as a symptom on some of the sites I looked at. FWIW, we gave Sophie 10mg Valium when she had these episodes which calmed her right down.

 

I'll read up on these types of seizures. We didn't actually end up investigating anything neurological b/c the probiotics seemed to address the problem. Would these seizures come in a cluster like that, and then disappear for nearly a year though?

 

On the night issue, it was always at night before. But both Saturday and Sunday this time, they started in the evening when I was still awake so lights were on in the house. And last night, she was on the couch with me when it started, so it's not like she was sleeping in the dark bed room and woke up disoriented.

 

I'm going to stop the kerasolv asap and see if they continue. I wonder how long it would take for her stomach to get better from something like that. I'm heading out of town Friday morning and she is staying with a friend while I'm gone.

[Guest EmilyAnne]

I noticed you feed raw. Has Neyla had raw chicken lately? Sometimes they flavor the chickens with a broth that has onions. Onions I believe cause neurological problems?

[inugrey]

I missed have you done vision checks for her peripheral and general darkness vision? PRA starts with nighttime blindness that would explain excessive sniffing and falling off the curb too.

[NeylasMom]

I noticed you feed raw. Has Neyla had raw chicken lately? Sometimes they flavor the chickens with a broth that has onions. Onions I believe cause neurological problems?

 

I only feed naturally raised, non-injected chicken and overall chicken isn't a huge part of her diet anymore although she does get some weekly.

 

 

 

I missed have you done vision checks for her peripheral and general darkness vision? PRA starts with nighttime blindness that would explain excessive sniffing and falling off the curb too.

 

No, my unofficial test was to ask her to do targeting with my hand, but we did it inside when the lights were on. But, then again, the lights were on when the behavior started. She did have a full eye exam sometime this year with a vet opthomologist, which would have had to have been after the first round of episodes last January. Are there tests I can do at home? If so, I will definitely do them, certainly won't hurt.

 

 

I had one other thought that this could be an inner ear thing. She had been shaking her head every now and then on walks like her right ear was bothering her, but I cleaned them out and we haven't seen that for over a week I think.

 

Thanks for all of the suggestions so far. I'm still inclined to believe it's either just GI distress, or the Kerasolv, but I'm not ruling anything out either, especially if they continue. I did remember that Saturday night, in addition to her huge fatty lamb neck, she also got scraps of the delicious grass-fed t-bone my DBF and I made for dinner. All the dogs got some so she didn't get much, but it was more fat so it's entirely possible her tummy is out of whack, although stools have been normal.

 

ETA: I did look up focal seizures and watched a video - doesn't sound or look like what she's experiencing. Realize that seizures present in all kinds of different ways though.

Edited October 20, 2008 by NeylasMom

[Guest Greensleeves]

It sounds neurological to me, as well; but if you do suspect GI, I'd try a few nights of Pepcid and see if that changes anything. I would *seriously* doubt it's the Kerasolv--unless she's eaten the whole tube of it (which is typically what they mean when they say "may cause digestive upset if consumed."). You might also ask your vet about mild sedatives--something like Rescue Remedy, perhaps.

 

Do you have other dogs in the house? They can be diagnostically helpful (ie, let you know if she's upset about something they can perceive, as well).

 

[MandysMom]

Jen--I didn't see Canine Cognitive Dysfunction listed. I have a friend with an 8 year old Anatolian Shepherd who exhibits many of the same behaviors--especially the intermittent night restlessness and disorientation.

 

Here is an article with some info: http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/artic...p;sk=&date=

 

I hope you find some answers for Neyla.

 

Beverly

[Guest SusanP]

Is Neyla elderly?

[NeylasMom]

She'll be 10 in March.

 

ETA: I found my old post - hey, waht do you know, lots of useful into there.

 

Still interested in any other input. The thing that I find odd is the long time span with no strange behavoir. It's been 10 months since her last episode, and it only happened a few times back then. I would think if it's dementia it would be getting worse. Although it sounds like some posts, seizures could come and go like this.

 

Rereading my posts, I remember even more though why I agreed with my vet on the gas diagnosis. We'll be going to bed shortly, fingers crossed that tonight goes okay. Tomorrow I may pick up some gas-x. I think I'll give Pepcid in the meantime. Keep the ideas coming please, thanks so much!

Edited October 21, 2008 by NeylasMom

[Guest iconsmum]

She'll be 10 in March.

 

ETA: I found my old post - hey, waht do you know, lots of useful into there.

 

Still interested in any other input. The thing that I find odd is the long time span with no strange behavoir. It's been 10 months since her last episode, and it only happened a few times back then. I would think if it's dementia it would be getting worse. Although it sounds like some posts, seizures could come and go like this.

 

Rereading my posts, I remember even more though why I agreed with my vet on the gas diagnosis. We'll be going to bed shortly, fingers crossed that tonight goes okay. Tomorrow I may pick up some gas-x. I think I'll give Pepcid in the meantime. Keep the ideas coming please, thanks so much!

 

 

Have you asked if he thinks it might be canine vestibular syndrome?

[gryhnd_adoptee]

.

I may be WAY off base here--but have you checked to see if you have mice or anything???

 

My parents had a dog when I was a baby that started acting VERY strange, and finally ended up digging a hole in the wooden floor of their screen porch; they had termites, and he could hear them!!!

 

Just something to think about--she may hear or smell something that you cannot!

 

My same thoughts too! It's that time of year when they are on the move and getting iniside for shelter. We have one in the upper crawspace which will make noise in the walls. The girls are always looking at the wall as if to see something we cannot. It's can be quite un-nerving to see them do this.

 

Once things quiet down at night, mice are more apt to be on the move, and are easier to be heard between walls. I stayed at a relatives house one holiday only to wake in the middle of the night with one walking across my hand in bed. Certainly gave me the heebie-jeebies!!!

 

Set some traps with peanut butter. I mix a bit of flour in mine only because the smaller mice can lick a trap clean without springing it. If it's mixed with a bit of flour, and mushed into the trap it's harder for them to get it out.

Edited October 21, 2008 by gryhnd_adoptee

[Guest meakah]

This sounds like seizure activity to me. Seizures can appear in many different forms (from mild like this to quite severe) and sporadically (yes, it can be dormant for years and then a random seizure re-occurs). I would take note of when it happens and mark it on the calendar along with any other relevant information (like unique treats given, meds, etc....see if there is a link).