Bad Chronic D

[Guest 3greysandamutt]

Hi all, I was a regular here years ago; maybe some of you recognize my username and remember my pack - greys Paula, Buddy, and Boo, and Pup the mutt... We lost Boo to Osteo on Christmas Eve 2005, but our other three are showing signs of age but hanging in there (and have been joined by 3 human siblings)!

 

My sweet girl Paula, who will be 10 next month, brings me back to these boards. She has a major health issue - horrible chronic diarrhea - that is going to kill her, if we don't find some way to help her!

 

Her problem is one that has been worsening over a long period of time; in fact, even as a young dog, she never had nice firm stools - on average, she was kind of 'ploppy.' Throughout most of her life, she has been on either Nutro Natural Choice Lamb and Rice, or Canidae, with veggies added to her dinners, and dollops of yogurt for gas control.

 

Late in 2006, we started noticing that her gas was becoming horrendous. Really, really strong, overpowering, and frequent - the type of greyhound gas that wakes you up from a dead sleep in the middle of the night! By Spring 2007, we started noticing that her stools were becoming more watery. She started experiencing increased urgency - middle-of-the-night potty calls - and one nasty accident in the house. We took her to our vet, who sent her to a specialist. After multiple appointments with the internal specialist, an ultrasound, lots of bloodwork, other tests... we realized that the doc was just guessing. He kept ruling out diseases, but seemed no closer to pinpointing what Paula's problem was! His next recommendation was a scope of her colon and gastrointestinal system - at a very high price which we couldn't afford (plus, DH and I had decided that, if it was cancer, we would only pursue palliative care, not chemotherapy/surgery/etc.).

 

We decided to just try to maintain Paula as long as possible. When she started with the diarrhea, we began giving a bland diet of boiled chicken and rice, and it seemed to keep the diarrhea away. But, when we tried to re-introduce kibble, the D came back with a vengeance!! We consulted many times with our vet and Paula's internal specialist about low-allergen, alternate protein source foods. Over the past year and a half, we have tried introducing several different foods - we have tried kibbles made with halibut, duck, venison, even kangaroo! Even the smallest amount of a new food sends Paula into explosive diarrhea, vomiting, or both.

 

So, she has been eating boiled chicken and rice for almost a year-and-a-half... and, that can't be healthy for her! Lately, she has been looking very thin, and we want to get some more nutrients in her diet. What can we give her?? I tried giving her some green beans yesterday, and she had hourly bouts of diarrhea through the night.

 

Any ideas or suggestions on how we can help Paula? I feel like she is going to die of starvation (nutrient depletion) right before our eyes, even though we feed her twice a day.

 

If anyone has had a similar experience with their grey, please share insights!

 

TIA!

[Guest KateWantsaGrey]

what about using supplements that come in pill form? like vitamins and such, do you think that might help? or would that make her sick too?

[Remolacha]

I am sorry your poor girl is going through this. It sounds a lot like Fletcher when I first got him. My vet guessed IBD, we didn't do the scope, just started treating as if that was it, and things got better. He was on Flagyl until he stabilized. I never found a kibble he could eat. He can't tolerate most veggies. I started feeding him raw, and he has been doing well for the last four years. He has a few "episodes", usually when I'm not careful and he eats something he shouldn't, but he's never been as bad as he was in the beginning.

 

You already know she can tolerate chicken. How about trying other meats (cooked or raw)? I would stay away from veggies and grains, except rice since you know she is ok with that. The only veggie exception Fletcher gets is a spoonful of cooked pumpkin (or is that a fruit? ). He eats chicken, turkey, pork, beef, lamb, sardines, duck, no veggies, no grains. (he also gets yogurt) It may not sound balanced, but he's very healthy Maybe you've tried some or all of this, but if not, it might help.

[gracegirl]

I'd start a raw diet for her. Easy things to eat, like raw beef, chicken wings, liver, etc. Hopefully some raw feeders will jump in here to give advice. I wouldn't know where to start with a senior, but I'd be inclined to try a raw diet next...

[Guest argolola]

No advice here, but she will be in my prayers.

[Hawthorn]

If you're going to continue with the chicken and rice diet I'd add some vitamins and sterilized bone meal to make it more nutritionally balanced, if she can tolerate these. You could also look into using Aloe Vera juice - years ago I used this with great success in one of my hounds who'd been suffering from recurrent bouts of colitis for over a year.

[Guest MAXNAV]

Hi,

My collie went through the same thing for about a year when I first adopted him. We were up all night long. He'd do great when switched to Purina VD through the vet, meds, etc. and would start all over with horrible D when he was reintroduced to his California Natural. The vet wanted me to put him on a really expensive food (only the vet sells), but one of the nice techs suggested IAMS Lamb and Rice kibbles. (The vet said that many purbreeds have issues with sensitve stomachs, etc. with regard to food, and that the mixed breeds don't seem to have as many problems. Go figure.) Once he was put on the IAMS, the D disappeared and we never had a single problem again. When I got my grey, I put him on the same food, so that my other guy wouldn't be tempted to eat anything but the IAMS. Navi has never had a problem with the D at all, thank goodness. I'm not sure if it's the food or not, but I'm not taking any chances.

 

I hope you find some help for poor Paula.

[Batmom]

Ask your vet about IBD.

 

Will she eat more if you feed her more?

 

The vitamin and bone meal mentioned in a post above would be a good idea.

[GeorgeofNE]

If you're still giving her yogurt--stop. Yogurt gives my dog diarrhea. Many dogs cannot digest dairy. If you said you had already, I apologize!

 

 

 

 

[DaisyDoodle]

I'd give her supplements/vitamins. It's unlikely that she's getting everything she needs from just chicken and rice. Also, rather than yogurt, have you tried a probiotic supplement added on top of her food?

[Burpdog]

Have you wormed her with panacur (5 days worth)? Doesn't matter if she shows positive or not, when we get one like this, we worm.

 

Jodie ate a home cooked diet for over 18 months. She was the healthiest looking in the pack Email me if you want the recipe.

[Guest MorganKonaAlex]

We had a consult with a doggie nutrionist when Kona's kidneys were failing and she'd eat only home cooking. She recommended a supplement called BalanceIt that would contain all the micronutrients she'd need. It's only available by prescription though. It's a powder that's added to the food.

[Guest rosebudd]

went raw here also, best thing I could have ever done for my tummy boy.

[Guest Ola]

Raw has also been amazing for us in the poop-firming department! It has also done wonders for Mayhem's gas problems, which you could smell across the room before and several times nightly.

 

I would definitely recommend a raw diet, or if you are really not comfortable with the idea, a homecooked one (but go beyond the chicken and rice). You will probably have to go very slowly with introducing anything new to her diet, but once you can get her to eat several foods successfully you will be in good shape. At this point, I would give up on her eating a commercial diet - it doesn't seem to be working and I don't think it's worth your stress and her health. The problem with commercial foods is that there are a LOT of ingredients in them, even in the simplest ones (which makes sense if you think about it - they have to stay on the shelf for a length of time without going bad). Any one of those ingredients, or a combination thereof, could be the problem.

 

For my own dog I decided to try the raw diet before going through the IBD diagnostic procedures. My thinking was that even if the scope shows that he has IBD, it won't change the course of action that we would take. Also, at this point I would be feeding her more than 2 meals per day so she can put on some weight. You sound very pessimistic about her future, but I hope that with a different approach to diet you can get her back on track!

 

I hope mandm chimes in here, I know she has experience in this area with her hound.

[Guest jupiterooos]

Greytalk convinced me to start Jupiter on a raw diet...and I'm very glad I did!

 

Paula sounds like she's having the same symptoms he did. He couldn't tolerate even the best kibble, and we had to make many, many trips outside for him to poop, all day and all night. He ate chicken and rice for a long while, then switched to chicken and potato, but even then he got diarrhea. Since the switch to raw, his tummy has been much, much better. No more toxic gas. No more rough, wiry fur. No more death breath. And no more diarrhea!

[Guest mandm]

My greyhound could not tolerate any kibble and after a while on homecooked, could not even tolerate the carbs (starch or veggies), only the meat. Switching to raw worked for him. For him, raw meat and bone was easier to digest than cooked. And a raw diet is much easier for me tp prepare than a cooked diet. But if you are not comfortable with raw and are willing to cook, you could feed a complete diet by slow cooking chicken or other poultry until the bones are soft and edible (about 24 hours on low). A complete diet needs only meat, bone, and organ meat. If you feed the entire chicken, you are providing complete nutrition. Since her gut is so sensitive, I'd remove the skin and fat clumps, since fat is difficult to digest. The carbs in processed dog food are only filler, not necessary and more difficult to digest (for dogs) than meat & bone.

[Guest 3greysandamutt]

Thanks for all your input so far, especially the raw recommendations. I think I will get her stabilized from her current bout of diarrhea, and then maybe start raw... I am going to have to ask lots of questions on the foods board...

 

what about using supplements that come in pill form? like vitamins and such, do you think that might help? or would that make her sick too?

 

This is exactly the type of thing that I'd like to try for her, but I don't know where to begin. There's so many vitamin supplements available, and like they affect different breeds in different ways. Do you have recommendations?

 

I am sorry your poor girl is going through this. It sounds a lot like Fletcher when I first got him. My vet guessed IBD, we didn't do the scope, just started treating as if that was it, and things got better. He was on Flagyl until he stabilized. I never found a kibble he could eat. He can't tolerate most veggies. I started feeding him raw, and he has been doing well for the last four years. He has a few "episodes", usually when I'm not careful and he eats something he shouldn't, but he's never been as bad as he was in the beginning.

 

You already know she can tolerate chicken. How about trying other meats (cooked or raw)? I would stay away from veggies and grains, except rice since you know she is ok with that. The only veggie exception Fletcher gets is a spoonful of cooked pumpkin (or is that a fruit? ). He eats chicken, turkey, pork, beef, lamb, sardines, duck, no veggies, no grains. (he also gets yogurt) It may not sound balanced, but he's very healthy Maybe you've tried some or all of this, but if not, it might help.

 

I have also believed that this is IBD, even though the ultrasound done by the specialist did not show the characteristic intestinal thickening seen with IBD, so he thought that was not the problem. I still believe that it is IBD, though...

The only other meat that we have tried Paula on is boiled hamburger, and the diarrhea persisted on that diet.

 

 

If you're going to continue with the chicken and rice diet I'd add some vitamins and sterilized bone meal to make it more nutritionally balanced, if she can tolerate these. You could also look into using Aloe Vera juice - years ago I used this with great success in one of my hounds who'd been suffering from recurrent bouts of colitis for over a year.

 

Which vitamins would you recommend? and where can I find bone meal?

 

 

If you're still giving her yogurt--stop. Yogurt gives my dog diarrhea. Many dogs cannot digest dairy. If you said you had already, I apologize!

 

We have tried cutting out the yogurt... the diarrhea and gas got worse...

 

 

I'd give her supplements/vitamins. It's unlikely that she's getting everything she needs from just chicken and rice. Also, rather than yogurt, have you tried a probiotic supplement added on top of her food?

 

I have not tried this - what specifically would you recommend, and where can I find it?

 

 

Have you wormed her with panacur (5 days worth)? Doesn't matter if she shows positive or not, when we get one like this, we worm.

 

Jodie ate a home cooked diet for over 18 months. She was the healthiest looking in the pack Email me if you want the recipe.

 

I'll be in touch!

 

 

We had a consult with a doggie nutrionist when Kona's kidneys were failing and she'd eat only home cooking. She recommended a supplement called BalanceIt that would contain all the micronutrients she'd need. It's only available by prescription though. It's a powder that's added to the food.

 

I'll look into this!

 

Raw has also been amazing for us in the poop-firming department! It has also done wonders for Mayhem's gas problems, which you could smell across the room before and several times nightly.

 

I would definitely recommend a raw diet, or if you are really not comfortable with the idea, a homecooked one (but go beyond the chicken and rice). You will probably have to go very slowly with introducing anything new to her diet, but once you can get her to eat several foods successfully you will be in good shape. At this point, I would give up on her eating a commercial diet - it doesn't seem to be working and I don't think it's worth your stress and her health. The problem with commercial foods is that there are a LOT of ingredients in them, even in the simplest ones (which makes sense if you think about it - they have to stay on the shelf for a length of time without going bad). Any one of those ingredients, or a combination thereof, could be the problem.

 

For my own dog I decided to try the raw diet before going through the IBD diagnostic procedures. My thinking was that even if the scope shows that he has IBD, it won't change the course of action that we would take. Also, at this point I would be feeding her more than 2 meals per day so she can put on some weight. You sound very pessimistic about her future, but I hope that with a different approach to diet you can get her back on track!

 

I hope mandm chimes in here, I know she has experience in this area with her hound.

 

This is exactly why we didn't pursue the scope... if it was officially IBD, it really wouldn't change anything; it would still be an issue of a very sensitive digestive system, and having to find the balance that worked for Paula! And, I'm only pessimistic about her future because, currently, she can only tolerate (boiled) chicken and rice... and an individual cannot survive forever on this low-nutrient diet! Eventually, her body will start shutting down due to lack of nutrient absorbtion. IF we can find a nutritionally sound diet that Paula can tolerate... I feel that she may have several good years left!

 

My greyhound could not tolerate any kibble and after a while on homecooked, could not even tolerate the carbs (starch or veggies), only the meat. Switching to raw worked for him. For him, raw meat and bone was easier to digest than cooked. And a raw diet is much easier for me tp prepare than a cooked diet. But if you are not comfortable with raw and are willing to cook, you could feed a complete diet by slow cooking chicken or other poultry until the bones are soft and edible (about 24 hours on low). A complete diet needs only meat, bone, and organ meat. If you feed the entire chicken, you are providing complete nutrition. Since her gut is so sensitive, I'd remove the skin and fat clumps, since fat is difficult to digest. The carbs in processed dog food are only filler, not necessary and more difficult to digest (for dogs) than meat & bone.

 

She is currently on white-meat chicken breast only, boiled for a long time, with all fat and oils rinsed away. As a cost-saving measure (chicken breasts are pricey!), I tried using thighs instead of breasts... and the change sent her into a bout of diarrhea. All I can think is that the dark meat was too fatty/rich, even with boiling and rinsing...

 

[Batmom]

Have you and vet talked about pancreatic issues, if she doesn't tolerate the additional fat even from cooked chicken?

 

Really any canine multivitamin/mineral supplement designed to be given daily would do for a start. The one I have on my shelf right now is Vetri-Science Canine Plus, believe I got it from vetamerica.com.

[Guest Willerton]

Sounds like IBD to me. I have a cat with IBD and the only thing that has made him okay is eating a grain-free diet with absolutely no add-ins of any kind. I would try that.

[Guest mandm]

I was reluctant to feed my greyhound raw and so I cooked for him. But he couldn't eat any carbs and so I fed him only meat and provided calcium by adding bone meal. He didn't do well on cooked chicken, otherwise I would have slow cooked chicken bone to provide calcium. I purchased human grade bonemeal from a supplement store & added 1 tsp per lb of meat. If you want to try slow-cooked chicken, since she is fat intolerant, you could slow cook only skinless chicken necks and skinless breasts. The bones will dissolve in less than 24 hours since neck bones are so soft. I'd do half & half breasts & necks. The necks are dirt cheap compared to breasts.

 

Note that bonemeal is cooked, pulverized BEEF bone. So if she connot handle beef, then it might not work for her. Many people add powdered egg shell to provide calcium. That might work better for her, since you know she can handle chicken.

 

Organ meat provides necessary nutrients. But it is very rich, so I wouldn't feed any to her until she has stabilized. My greyhound has been stable for a long time and is thriving. However, he can handle only half the recommended organ amount. So I supplement with vitamins. I buy a supposedly hypoallergenc canine multi -- Thorne Research Canine Basic Nutrients. I also give extra Cobalamin (B12) & Folic Acid (B9, I think), also hypoallergenic, because my greyhound tested deficient in these nutrients. Have you done the TI1 blood test which tests for EPI & SIBO (Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth)? It is non invasive and relatively inexpensive.

 

Does she seem to eat a lot for her size? That might indicate poor absorption.

[Hawthorn]

If you're going to continue with the chicken and rice diet I'd add some vitamins and sterilized bone meal to make it more nutritionally balanced, if she can tolerate these. You could also look into using Aloe Vera juice - years ago I used this with great success in one of my hounds who'd been suffering from recurrent bouts of colitis for over a year.

 

Which vitamins would you recommend? and where can I find bone meal?

 

 

I rotate the supplements I use. At the moment I'm using The Missing Link but sometimes I use a powder called Keepers Mix which I get online from Dorwest Herbs based in the UK and sometimes I use a multivitamin made for humans with my home-cooked meals. As for the bone meal I get mine from our local pet shop but an internet search should provide you with some sources.

 

If I were in your shoes I think I'd look for a hypoallergenic multivitamin as others have suggested. Ones made for dogs would be best but I use one that I get from the human health food shop and adjust the dose accordingly. If you could locate a doggie nutritionist to help you, that sounds like an excellent idea in your particular circumstances.

 

I don't feed mine a home-cooked diet all the time, just a couple of times a week, but a book I've found very informative is "Home Prepared Dog and Cat Diets" by Donald R Strombeck DVM. It has 2 whole chapters on gastro-intestinal problems including recipes for nutritionally balanced meals.

[Guest MorganKonaAlex]

Thanks for all your input so far, especially the raw recommendations. I think I will get her stabilized from her current bout of diarrhea, and then maybe start raw... I am going to have to ask lots of questions on the foods board...

 

I'd give her supplements/vitamins. It's unlikely that she's getting everything she needs from just chicken and rice. Also, rather than yogurt, have you tried a probiotic supplement added on top of her food?

 

I have not tried this - what specifically would you recommend, and where can I find it?

 

I just started my IBD boy, Morgan, on Probiotic this week. I got it from the Vet. It appears to be prescription. I don't have it in front of me but I believe it's called Fortyflora and made by Purina.

[Guest MZH]

Our Cullen developed diarrhea after he started taking seizure meds. The one thing that kept his bowels firm was tylosin powder; I put it in capsules because he rejected the bitter taste of the powder on food. In time he need it only once every other day. We don't know why it worked but it did. It was a last resort but it was a Godsend for us.

 

We first tried psyllium powder but that altered his seizure meds levels so we stopped that. It may not be an issue for Paula, though.

 

Also Culturelle was helpful but he took that while on antibiotics for Lyme disease.

 

Just three more things to consider.

 

Good luck; this is a very tough thing to deal with.

 

Marcia

[Guest gryhndmom]

Hi I too am a newbie. I just this afternoon joined the group. I am very sorry to hear about your poor girs Diarrhea. My BigDaddy who is now passed used to have somewhat chronic Diarrhea. No where near as bad as your poor girl but what helpled him was Tylan Powder. It was recommended to me by another grey owner. I got it from the vets. They used to order me the big bottle they would normally dispense from. I would give him 1/4 teaspoonful each meal. It is an antibiotic intended for poultry but it did the trick for him. He started when he too was about 10 years old and he was on the Tylan powder for the rest of his life. He never had issues eating and like I said his Diarrhea was no where near as bad as your girls but Tylan powder might be worth the try. It sure helped him. I would just sprinkle it on his food and add a little water and he ate it with no problems. Hope this helps.

 

Hi I too am a newbie. I just this afternoon joined the group. I am very sorry to hear about your poor girs Diarrhea. My BigDaddy who is now passed used to have somewhat chronic Diarrhea. No where near as bad as your poor girl but what helpled him was Tylan Powder. It was recommended to me by another grey owner. I got it from the vets. They used to order me the big bottle they would normally dispense from. I would give him 1/4 teaspoonful each meal. It is an antibiotic intended for poultry but it did the trick for him. He started when he too was about 10 years old and he was on the Tylan powder for the rest of his life. He never had issues eating and like I said his Diarrhea was no where near as bad as your girls but Tylan powder might be worth the try. It sure helped him. I would just sprinkle it on his food and add a little water and he ate it with no problems. Hope this helps.

 

I just saw the other post. Tylosin and Tylan powder are one in the same.

[Guest 3greysandamutt]

Hi - just wanted to again say thanks to everyone who made suggestions. It turns out that the decision was taken out of my hands - I sent Paula to the Bridge today. She bounced back after last week's diarrhea incident, but suffered from (I believe) a seizure last evening. She stabilized, and slept well last night, but wouldn't eat breakfast this morning. Then, within a couple hours of waking up, she was bleeding horribly from both ends. There was not much of a decision to make - I just sped the process up a little bit.