Laundry List Of Medical And Behavioral Issues (sorry, It's Long&#3

[Guest HighMaintenance]

Hi everyone. I was on this board at least a year ago when my boy, Je t'aime had issues w/ his paw pads tearing and a few other things. My boy came to me 2 years ago this month. I've had issues here and there w/ him (peeing/pooping in the house, snarkiness on the couches, etc.), but lately, things have been a down-ward spiral. I'll number the items b/c it's a LIST! BTW - he is a 5 year old male (almost).

1. He had two seizures (one pretty bad one) in a month and a half starting this past October. I took him into his vet (a new vet, closer to my home whom was recommeded to me by a co-worker). Since he's seizures we so close together and latest was MUCH worse than the first, they put him on Phenobarbitol. Dosage for Phenobarbital: 1gr, every 12 hours. This is the way the dosage worked: 10/24/07: Started 1 gm, then wasn't doing well on it. Beginning of November: dropped to 1/2 pill (having a lot of bad side effects). 12/4: When he went to the vet to have his serum levels tested, he was not at therapeutic drug level -so, took it back up to 1 gm pill, twice a day. 1/10: Dropped it back down to half a pill, every 12 hrs (when started the Potassium Bromide). 1/19: Down to 1/4 pill every 12 hrs, 1/31: Completely off. Date of start of Potassium Bromide: 1/10/08.
2. Dosage of Potassium Bromide: 600 mg tables (2 tablets, twice a day) - total of 2400 mg. I called and had them check his file and this is what's written down. He weighs 74 lbs. FIRST SEIZURE was at 6 pm, second one was at 8 pm.
3. Ever since the seizures began, he had a change in behavior. He became puppy-like (vocalizing, barking during playtime, play biting, yelping) and started whining like CRAZY! He became like velcro to me. He lost all of his independence. He started pacing and circling.
4. He urinates in the house. He was only doing it if we came home from work (my sister or I) and then would leave again, even if it wasn't for a long time. But, now - he's doing it while we're at work.
5. EVERY night - usually between 11:30 pm until sometimes 6 am - he paces and whines. He does laps in the house (slow laps) the same pattern. Sometimes I've counted him doing them 50 times! His bed is in my bedroom (he lost bed privlages in the late summer b/c he would get snarky w/ me when I'd try to get him to move). It's huge, we made it - it's a 3" thick foam bed with a fleece duvet cover over it and a down comforter for him to mush around and use as a "pillow". And, he's allowed on the couch - so it's not as though he is uncomfortable. Plus he has jammies, so he's not "cold". I ordered Canine Lullabies on-line, doesn't do anything for him. I don't remember the last time I had a full night sleep...
6. So, last Thursday, he started vomiting blood. Took him into the vet. They thought it was pancreaitus (ran the test - came back normal). But, I ordered the gammot of testing (urinlyasis, blood work-up, IV fluids, etc.). Everything came back normal or near normal (protein levels were a bit low and pancreitis levels a bit low). They told me to feel him Science Diet i/d (which, of course, they are a "dealer"). I fed it to him for a few days, but they researched the crappy ingrediants. So, I started feeding him ground chicken and rice until I decided on a different type of food.
7. Had a behavior eval on Monday night by an area expert (she's wonderful and so incredibly knowledgable). She feels that his changes could be a few things: his brain is not functioning the same way it did before (he may have one of his senses not functioning the same way and it's throwing him off). He still may be having some "mini seizures" (the pacing). He is prob associating night (when he's the most clingy/restless, etc.) with the seizures, so we need to redirect him w/ some positive reinforcement (she showed us how to clicker train). She also told me to talk to an animal nutritionisht about his food.
8. Another possibility of all of this is a Forebrain Tumor. The symptoms are: Behavioral abnormalities such as loss of learned behavior, depression; Increased or decreased appetite and thirst; Constant pacing or circling; Decreased awareness and vision on one side of the body causing misjudgement of openings to doorways and bumping of one side of the body; Sometimes affected animals behave as if they are in pain. Of course, the only way of diagnosis is an MRI...
9. Changed his food to Taste of the Wild's Pacific Stream (he loves it) and changed his treats to Wellness Venison & Salmon and am feeding him dried yams as his "bisquits". He's still vomiting. Let me add - he DOES have a sensitive tummy (his pet insurance doesn't cover an GI related issues b/c it's a "preexisting" condition - have had him to the E-vet a couple times since I've had him.
10. His back legs are REALLY weak, he has such a hard time going down the stairs, but usually bounds up them later.
11. So, nothing has really changed - I do training with him several times a day, he gets lots of exercise, etc. I have researched and read and I'm exhausted. He's not happy. He's so lethargic, except a few times a day when he plays. He wouldn't even get off the couch this morning for his walk and he dragged and dragged...

Did I put you all to sleep? I have been to the vet SO many times. There are other minor things I could add to this list, but that's enough for now. Is it possible that all this is related? My head hurts...

[grey14me]

oh how sad! I don't have any experience with seizures but I wonder if the med dosage is off or somehow causing his other symptoms. although I'd be extremely worried about vomiting blood! I've never heard of pancreatitis causing that...they usually vomit bile. anyway, I hope others here will have some advice, but I'll be thinking of your poor boy :hope

[Guest HighMaintenance]

Thanks! I'm just at such a loss on what to do. The vets have no answers. If he doesn't improve soon, I'll be getting a second opionion. I just wish he could talk to me and tell me what's wrong!

[NeylasMom]

Have you considered a visit to an internist? Not sure what you have available where you live, but we have several really nice hospitals here that have many different specialists. If you have one, I would see about taking him to an internist there and going over his full history.

 

What is your vet saying at this point? Is he recommending further testing? I'm assuming he must - I can't imagine leaving vomiting blood undiagnosed!

 

I don't have enough experience to suggest what could be going on, all I can say is you need to find yourself a specialist to help get to the bottom of this. Keep us posted, I hope you figure it out.

 

ETA: I just read your last post. Don't wait to see if it goes away! You're describing some pretty disconcerting symptoms.

 

Oh, one more (very expensive) suggestion - a veterinary behaviorist since the medical issues have been accompanied by behavioral changes. Around here they charge about $100/hr for the initial consult, which tends to take hours, but follow up via phone is included in that price.

Edited February 8, 2008 by NeylasMom

[Jiffer]

I'm not sure where you are located, but I think I'd be sending your exact message above to Dr. Couto for a consult.

There are some serious issues there that need to be addressed. Is it the medication that's effected him? Did the seizure(s) cause something in his brain to change (not uncommon since their internal temp usually shoots through the roof during the ictal (convulsion) period of a seizure)?

 

I hope you can figure some of this out. It seems very scary and sad.

 

Prayers for Je t'aime.

[Guest HighMaintenance]

Oh, thank you - an internist. I think the closest to me is at Cornell (an Internal Medicine Vet) - which, they also have a Neurologist vet there as well. Sorry - should have clairified - he's not vomiting blood anymore, just his food (I didnt' know, until I did some research and found out that the medicines they gave me from his visit last Thursday don't interact well). Cimetidine and liquid sulcrafate (they think maybe he has an ulcer now b/c of his constant anxiety/aggitation since the seizures). He threw up after eating too quickly (so, now I only give him small meals) and then vomited again (I think due to the medicines being given together). BUT - also, it could be something else.

 

The vet wanted to re-check his levels (blood work) again in 2 weeks (which, would be next week), but I don't want to wait that long.

 

Thank you for your help...I'll keep you posted on my next steps...

 

I just had a behavioral eval (not a vet one) that was $100, which I don't care about the $, just wanted some help, but a VET behaviorist would be my next step (Something my vet suggested even before the vomiting blood).

 

THANKS SO MUCH!!!! At least I feel like I'm doing something...

 

Jiffer - thank you. I'm sorry, who is Dr. Couto? Where is he? How do I get a hold of him? I am in the Buffalo area, but I'd be willing to travel just about anywhere to find some resolve for my boy.

 

My vet doesn't think the meds are affecting his tummy (I guess Pot. Bromide doesn't cause vomiting), but maybe it's causing the other symptoms?

 

As for the "causing something" in the brain from the seizures - that's what the behaviorist was thinking (when we had the eval done at my home on Monday night).

[turbotaina]

Have you had thyroid tested? A TBD panel? Just wondering if the seizures were idiopathic or there was a cause for them...

 

Good luck getting to the bottom of it!

 

Jiffer - thank you. I'm sorry, who is Dr. Couto? Where is he? How do I get a hold of him? I am in the Buffalo area, but I'd be willing to travel just about anywhere to find some resolve for my boy.

 

Dr. Couto runs the Greyhound Health & Wellness Program at Ohio State University. greyosu@osu.edu for a consult.

[Guest HighMaintenance]

Have you had thyroid tested? A TBD panel? Just wondering if the seizures were idiopathic or there was a cause for them...

 

Good luck getting to the bottom of it!

 

Hi there! Yes, he had (now twice in the past 4 months) a full gamot of blood work done (It's called a Sa450 test - that's what it's called on my bill!). I had them write out EXACTLY what they were testing for and it says: Superchem, cbc, T3, T4, free T4, CTSH, Thyroglubulin AA. He's also had two urinalysis test done. I guess this last time they all his cell counts, etc. (to make sure he doesn't have cancer in his stomach).

 

What is a TBD panel?

[Guest HighMaintenance]

Dr. Couto runs the Greyhound Health & Wellness Program at Ohio State University. greyosu@osu.edu for a consult.

 

Great, thank you SOOOO much! I've been on their website before doing research for myself. I just called my vet and they're faxing over all his lab tests to me today...

[Guest ss556]

No answers, thinking maybe some of the meds/levels???

Good luck to you.

[Trudy]

KBr

- it makes dogs hungry and thirsty. Which in turns makes them pee a lot more.

- it takes a while to adjust. When we added it to Ryan's pill line up, it took a very long time for him to adjust and we still dropped his dose in half because after 5 weeks he couldn't stand up without wobbling and almost falling over (his back end was really week for quite some time after we started him on KBr).

 

He may be pacing and whining at night because he needs to pee.

 

His 2 seizures - they were 6 weeks apart?

Was anything ruled out as reasons for having seizures?

5 is a normal age for onset of epilepsy, but getting to that diagnosis is done by ruling out other stuff.

 

 

There are some good neurologists in Rochester, but you need a referral to see them (Rochester Vet Specialists).

 

Vomiting - is it still blood?

Is there any blood in his stool?

 

He could have an ulcer.

If he's still puking up blood, you need to get that figured out ASAP

[Guest HighMaintenance]

Trudy - thanks. They thought maybe it was an ulcer (that's why he's on those few meds). Yes, the vet did tell me about the side effects of both Pheno and KBr. I always get up to go outside w/ him when he's whining, but he doesn't go pee very much (not much urine comes out). When he had his two seizures 6 weeks apart we did all the testing (to check for diabetes, thyroid, etc.). All tests came back pretty much normal (except a high Amylase level and low Platelet count). The only other test to run was an MRI to rule out a tumor, but we were going to see if he responded (no seizures) to the meds. So far, no seizures, per se, but he's totally out of wack (emotionally and behaviorally). OK, glad to know the wobbly legs is the KBr's work....

No, now it's just vomit (like regurgitation), no blood in his stool.

Rochester? Wonderful. Think I'll be getting a referral from my vet to see them....

Thanks!

[Trudy]

We saw Kathy Collins and she's had a few greyhound patients (one was being picked up the night we were picking Ryan up from there), but there are a few neurologists there and it is a 24 hour care hospital.

Veterinary Specialists of Rochester

825 White Spruce Blvd

Rochester, NY

585-424-1260

[Guest HighMaintenance]

Thank you SO much. I will be getting a referral for the neurologist.

[Guest HighMaintenance]

So, in trying to decide what to do (also because diagnostics are expensive and I would need to save up for a bit), does this sound like the right action steps (in terms of importance): First, get a referral from my primary vet for the board certified vet behaviorist in my area. Then, see if this vet thinks going to a neurologist and having an MRI is nessary....?

 

[grey14me]

So, in trying to decide what to do (also because diagnostics are expensive and I would need to save up for a bit), does this sound like the right action steps (in terms of importance): First, get a referral from my primary vet for the board certified vet behaviorist in my area. Then, see if this vet thinks going to a neurologist and having an MRI is nessary....?

 

I am not sure...I think I would go with whatever Dr. Couto suggests. My first step would be to send him all the records and find out what he thinks. From what I understand, he responds pretty quickly.

[turbotaina]

What is a TBD panel?

 

Tick borne diseases. Some can cause seizures.

 

So, in trying to decide what to do (also because diagnostics are expensive and I would need to save up for a bit), does this sound like the right action steps (in terms of importance): First, get a referral from my primary vet for the board certified vet behaviorist in my area. Then, see if this vet thinks going to a neurologist and having an MRI is nessary....?

 

I think I'd hit the neurologist first, but like Grey14me says, see what OSU recommends.

 

BTW, how low were the low platelets - low for a greyhound or regular dog low?

[Trudy]

Talk with your vet. It may be quite some time before you get anything back from Dr Couto.

If you like and trust your vet, work with them to see what they suggest.

 

[Guest HighMaintenance]

Turbotania - I actually just read a few hours ago that greyhounds platelet counts are sometimes naturally low, but his lab reports (I think) take the breed into account when reporting Reference Range. The first count was at 89 (LOW) on 10.25.07, then on 2/1/08 report, it was at 81 (low), but on OSU's website, it says that levels even at 80 are normal for greys...

 

As for TBD, I don't think he's been tested for that (from reading I see that it can lay dorment for years?).

[Batmom]

SFirst, get a referral from my primary vet for the board certified vet behaviorist in my area.

 

Skip the behaviorist. Your dog is having a lot of medical issues and medication reactions. Need to resolve all that first. Behaviorist won't be cost-effective -- and will possibly be useless -- until the medical issues are resolved.

 

P.S. How much does he vomit, how often? Is he losing weight?

P.P.S. The I/D doesn't look like the best food on paper, but the canned stuff is wonderful for dogs with upset innards.

Edited February 8, 2008 by Batmom

[Guest HighMaintenance]

Thanks, so much, Batmom. I just found out there's an internal medicine physician close by to my house and I just went on their website and filled out a new client appointment form for the doctor. We'll go that route first.

I can't thank you all enough for your help...it helps so much!

[Guest HighMaintenance]

P.S. How much does he vomit, how often? Is he losing weight?

P.P.S. The I/D doesn't look like the best food on paper, but the canned stuff is wonderful for dogs with upset innards.

He vomited (since the vet) Wednesday night. Then, again Thursday evening and overnight. Today, nothing. He's been fine. No, not losing weight (at least that I know of). He was the same weight on Thursday that he was from a few weeks ago (when we went to the vet on Thursday).

Yes, just after doing some research (reading on the actual ingrediants and what they mean) and then talking to the nutritionist, I thought it would be best to take him off the i/d.

 

Another possibility that we're thinking is he's having reactions to whatever chemicals and/or preservatives in dog food (that's why we're trying a completely preservating and chemical free food).

[Batmom]

Sounds like he is doing better in the food department then -- hope that continues and that you can get to the bottom of everything. Sending hugs and scritchies -- I can imagine how frustrated and worried you must feel.

[LBass]

With regard to the vomiting--Potassium Bromide is hard on some dog's tummies and can cause vomiting. Another way of getting the anti-seizure effects of the Bromide is to use Sodium Bromide (NaBr) instead of Potassium Bromide KBr). Sodium Bromide also has to be compounded, as does KBr, but is not generally more expensive. The dosing is a little different than that of KBr but your vet can sort that out. Consider talking to the vet about using Sodium Bromide. In the meantime, be sure to give KBr with food since that can make it easier on the tum.

 

General clumsiness and particularly hind end weakness are notorious side effects of KBr (NaBr too, unfortunately). If it is the medication, it is quite possible that his body will get used to the meds and the side effects will become less troublesome, though they most likely won't go away entirely. When Piper started taking KBr he had lots of trouble with clumsiness and rear end weakness--falling, struggling to get up, etc. It took far longer than I thought possible, but the side effects did reach a manageable level eventually. If its medication side effects for your hound, give it several weeks (6-8) before you give up on getting some improvement.

 

Piper also has an issue holding pee/poo since starting Bromide. When he has to go, he has to go now. There is just no ability to wait until lunchtime or until I get home from work. Your hound may be having some of the same issues. For Piper, that never really did improve and I finally opted to get a dog door--no more having to hold if I'm not home. Also, there is usually some needing to potty at night, unfortunately.

 

Excellent web sites on seizures and their various causes and treatments and living with canine seizures:

www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com

www.canine-epilepsy.com

www.canine-epilepsy.net

 

www.acvim.org will help you find an internal medicine specialist and also a neurologist near you.

 

Most of the time it is possible to get decent seizure control with manageable side effects for dogs with seizures. It can take a bit of time and trial and error to find the combination of meds, food, etc. that works for your dog. Find a good vet who will research, consult, and who will work with the useful info you will find.

 

Lucy and Piper (10 weeks seizures free)

[Guest HighMaintenance]

Thank you - wonderful info. Makes me feel like his challenges are not completely uncommon. I think finding a vet who is willing to research and do more than just "the norm" is what I need...

 

Thanks