How Did This Breed Survive 3000 Years!

[Guest weisster]

Whoever thought to create such a magnificent dog, handsome face, majestic body and 4 very long legs that get hurt everytime they run!

Poor Darrel ran in the yard chasing yet another squirrel...something wedged deep into his underfoot causing him to take stitches and bankrupt his mother. Without exaggeration, this must be his 4th leg injury, not to mention the corn that won't go away.

Just thinking outloud!

[Guest loveagrey]

Aww... Poor guy! And poor you and your bank account! It's a nice bandage though....

[Jiffer]

Aww, poor guy! I hope he heals quickly.

 

I think that's exactly how they survived.. they were so cute that people couldn't help but nurse them back to health when they'd get injured

[Guest Flint]

The poor baby! I know exactly what you mean -- my tough, former professional athlete is always cutting up his legs. It reminds me of something that my mom used to say years ago (she was a huge baseball fan). She would wonder (out loud) how a professional athlete in top form could fall on GRASS and be out for the season while she, an older out-of-shape woman could fall down the steps of the bus, land on the concrete sidewalk, dust herself off and continue on with the rest of her day!

 

I hope he heals quickly.

 

 

[grey14me]

this is exactly why I leash walk Holly a lot and keep her too tired to run in the yard

[Guest Winterwish]

Oh no,poor Darrel! and your wallet too! I hope he's feeling better soon and heals well.

[Guest KennelMom]

Remember - our modern greyhound has been bred to run on the very groomed surface of a race track Their ancestors were running on the desert sand. I've often wondered what the greyhounds of Middle Ages and Renassaince England looked like...if they were hardier than the dogs we have today. In lure coursing, greyhounds are prone to "running out of their feet" - over a two or three day event, the Best in Breed for greyhounds often comes down to the last dog standing. One thing I've found is that once a dog gets one foot injury, they are really prone to future injuries...I'm really cautious now about where and when I'll let my dogs cut loose and really run. And keeping them in good overall condition with proper length nails helps a lot to prevent injuries. And, of course, despite ALL the precautions owners take, injuries to our thin skinned, soft-footed greyhounds will still happen.

 

That is a HUGE bandage! Hope he heals quickly

[Guest greyhound1]

Hope he feels better soon.

Edited December 13, 2007 by greyhound1

[Guest needlenoselover]

Poor handsome fella!!!! Hope he heals quickly, and that Santa brings you some extra $ to replenish your bank account!!

[RobinM]

Yup, I feel your pain. I have 4 hounds with 4 different leg/disk/limp issues.

 

 

[Guest Tenderhearts]

Dear Darrel,

 

I will never complain about my owie bandage again! Hope you heal up fast, dude! Oh yeah, and milk it for all it's worth! :dogcookie

 

Your buddy in Kansas,

Dandy Randy

[Guest CindiLuvsGreys]

I have often wondered that myself. I think the breed used to be more resiliant. They would not still be around if they were like my Kelsey, a walking accident scene. I hope he is feeling better soon. Such an adorable boy.

[ahicks51]

I'm no expert on the breed, but after more than a little casual reading, I understand a few things to be true. Perhaps someone else can correct me on my points.

 

Timed racing began in the United States in 1926; I can't find it now, but I seem to remember something about opto-electronic timing making it possible to do split-second shots of finishes, so timing of races was perfected. The result- in the US and abroad- was an explosion in racing venues, which we're now starting to see collapse (in the US, anyway) because of a number of factors I won't get into.

 

From this, we have ~81 years' worth of breeding, or somewhere around 20 generations or less. The ~20,000 dogs bred per year works out to an interesting figure- quite a diversity in terms of genetics, but at the same time they all spawned from a much smaller genetic pool prior to the 1920s. We can be thankful they are as healthy as they are, given this expansion- which is in no small part due to the selection being based in large part to speed, rather than morphology (nose, ears- anything the dog "looks" like- things an AKC breeder is primarily interested in).

 

One result of this is an animal that is bred for speed- and you kind of hit a wall at an average 40-45 miles an hour on the 7/16th mile track like we commonly see in the US (I think it's 7/16th, anyway). At the very least, although we continue to see improvements in speed even today, there would have to be some quantum leap in physiology- some phenomenal adaptation- to break 45-50 miles an hour (let alone cheetah speeds). But we see specific adaptations such as the short fur and thin skin that have been developed, presumably to facilitate the shedding of heat.

 

It's interesting to note that in the 1800's (I think it was) some Irish breeder bucked the system and started putting his brood boxes up off the floor- which was anathema at the time, as Irish greyhound breeders gunned for tough dogs that (in olden times) were left to fend for themselves in semi-wild enclosures. Scuttlebutt has it some still do this, or did it up until relatively recently.

 

Modern selection has been for a dog that runs on a groomed, oval track, and is kept in (generally) climate-controlled conditions. That extra 0.05 seconds makes all the difference in terms of the purse, and after 20 generations, we're producing greys that are apparently much larger than they have been historically. It is interesting to note the number of progeny that have spawned from relatively good runners- Molotov (75 pounds) and his sire HB's Commander (80 pounds), Oswald Cobblepot (71 pounds, also with HB's Commander as a sire), Gable Dodge (78 pounds), Kiowa Sweet Trey (80 pounds and an Oswald Cobblepot dog), Oshkosh Slammer (75 pounds), and so forth.

 

Now this is just some back-of-the-envelope statistics, but I don't think the race winners of old were anywhere *near* the 70-80 pound figures of the top sires I cite above. But that's just a guess. And that's just the boys, and we know the 45-55 pound girlies can be just as dangerous to themselves and others!

 

Anyway. That's my angle.

[Guest CarriesMom]

I feel so sorry for your pup. Everytime I took my girl to the park to play with the playgroup, she would hurt her feet or pull a muscle. Some of the other dogs would rip up their feet too! The surfaces just are not smooth enough for them to run, especially at the speeds these dogs can achieve.

 

 

[silverfish]

Whoever thought to create such a magnificent dog, handsome face, majestic body and 4 very long legs that get hurt everytime they run!

Poor Darrel ran in the yard chasing yet another squirrel...something wedged deep into his underfoot causing him to take stitches and bankrupt his mother. Without exaggeration, this must be his 4th leg injury, not to mention the corn that won't go away.

Just thinking outloud!

 

Aw .. poor Darrel.

 

But actually they don't get hurt each time they run.

 

My two run offlead daily over pasture which - at this season - is grazed by bullocks and gets cut up quite badly by their hooves. There are also rabbits with the accompanying holes and shallow scrapes. Add to this that the fields themselves show the remnants of the old ridge-and-furrow system and you can see that it's not exactly a 'forgiving' surface. However, in the 13-14 years of allowing greyhounds offlead there, I can't call to mind more than the odd (minor) skin tear through catching themselves on sharp bits of twig or wire. In contrast to this, Jim got himself a serious ligament injury slipping on our kitchen floor going no more than walking pace :rolleyes and there have been two or three cut pads, walking on paved paths.

 

Remember - our modern greyhound has been bred to run on the very groomed surface of a race track Their ancestors were running on the desert sand. I've often wondered what the greyhounds of Middle Ages and Renassaince England looked like...if they were hardier than the dogs we have today............................ And keeping them in good overall condition with proper length nails helps a lot to prevent injuries. And, of course, despite ALL the precautions owners take, injuries to our thin skinned, soft-footed greyhounds will still happen.

 

I totally agree about keeping them in condition to help reduce injury. It's the unfit greyhound who doesn't often run who is most likely to injure himself, just as it's the unfit human who is more likely to injure himself playing Sunday Soccer, or hockey, or whatever.

 

As to what they looked like .. well, you have plenty of historic woodcuts to refer to in order to see the shape of the original greyhound. Some people thing they're inaccurate because they look odd to us compared to modern greyhounds, but it could simply be that they were, in fact, different. There is a type of greyhound bred here, not to run on the track (and therefore not tattooed) but to course game. They are stockier dogs, they seem to have more muscle, and a tad shorter back and often a shorter nose/smaller head. They did need a long neck though, to 'pick up' the rabbit or hare they were chasing. My old Jim was more the 'coursing' shape, and he wasn't tattooed - he was probably Traveller-bred, and what do Travellers breed dogs for? Yep, coursing game.

 

If you go back far enough on Greyhound-data.com, you will start to see etchings of the dogs instead of photographs, at least, of the dogs etchings survive for. I've found one or two.

 

From this, we have ~81 years' worth of breeding, or somewhere around 20 generations or less. The ~20,000 dogs bred per year works out to an interesting figure- quite a diversity in terms of genetics, but at the same time they all spawned from a much smaller genetic pool prior to the 1920s. We can be thankful they are as healthy as they are, given this expansion- which is in no small part due to the selection being based in large part to speed, rather than morphology (nose, ears- anything the dog "looks" like- things an AKC breeder is primarily interested in).

 

I think I'm right in saying that most breeds started from a very small genetic pool - the difference is that greyhounds were bred for use, not looks. This, as you say, is a distinct benefit to them.

 

It's interesting to note that in the 1800's (I think it was) some Irish breeder bucked the system and started putting his brood boxes up off the floor- which was anathema at the time, as Irish greyhound breeders gunned for tough dogs that (in olden times) were left to fend for themselves in semi-wild enclosures. Scuttlebutt has it some still do this, or did it up until relatively recently.

 

Around that period, and before, greyhounds intended as working dogs (usually coursing) were whelped and weaned, then a farmer was paid to provide bed and board for them till they were old enough to train up. The deal was that the farmer would let the dog run wild over the local farmland, heathland, hills and fells or whatever, then the dog would come home for his bowl of food and be shut up safe in a barn till the next morning.

 

This bred a dog which was tough and able to look out for himself - and incidentally, knew where his next bowl of food was coming for, so he would come home when called.

 

Modern selection has been for a dog that runs on a groomed, oval track, and is kept in (generally) climate-controlled conditions. That extra 0.05 seconds makes all the difference in terms of the purse, and after 20 generations, we're producing greys that are apparently much larger than they have been historically. It is interesting to note the number of progeny that have spawned from relatively good runners- Molotov (75 pounds) and his sire HB's Commander (80 pounds), Oswald Cobblepot (71 pounds, also with HB's Commander as a sire), Gable Dodge (78 pounds), Kiowa Sweet Trey (80 pounds and an Oswald Cobblepot dog), Oshkosh Slammer (75 pounds), and so forth.

 

Now this is just some back-of-the-envelope statistics, but I don't think the race winners of old were anywhere *near* the 70-80 pound figures of the top sires I cite above. But that's just a guess. And that's just the boys, and we know the 45-55 pound girlies can be just as dangerous to themselves and others!

Interesting thoughts. I don't have any info on how much the old-style dogs weighed, but it could well be that the balance of the dog has changed.

 

Here's King Cob, one of the two main progenitors of the modern greyhound

 

King Cob

 

And here's a pic from the 17th century of a hunt with greyhounds

 

Hunt from 1670

[Guest weisster]

Here it is 24 hours after his accident and darrel . I carried him down the three stair so he could relieve himself. What a surprise to see that he was running on 3 legs on the sleet. Gotta love these dogs.

You're a very informative group and I appreciate all this knowledge.

[BootsyCollins]

As my vet said once when stitching up Argos for the third time...everything went into making them fast, the rest is just an afterthought!

[ahicks51]

From this, we have ~81 years' worth of breeding, or somewhere around 20 generations or less. The ~20,000 dogs bred per year works out to an interesting figure- quite a diversity in terms of genetics, but at the same time they all spawned from a much smaller genetic pool prior to the 1920s. We can be thankful they are as healthy as they are, given this expansion- which is in no small part due to the selection being based in large part to speed, rather than morphology (nose, ears- anything the dog "looks" like- things an AKC breeder is primarily interested in).

 

I think I'm right in saying that most breeds started from a very small genetic pool - the difference is that greyhounds were bred for use, not looks. This, as you say, is a distinct benefit to them.

 

 

Ultimately, any breed would have to be started from a rather small genetic pool. Evolution and selective breeding both occur more quickly in small populations. With greys, the explosion must have been phenomenal. The sport gained tremendous popularity in the early years, and it would seem likely that breeding began in earnest shortly after 1926. It would be interesting to go into the records and look at how many litters have been bred over time; I'm going to guess there was quite a difference between 1920 and 1930 (not that anyone would have records for 1920), and then again in 1940.

 

This probably explains some of the quirks of the breed- weird thyroid issues, osteosarcoma (common to all large breeds, so it is likely a common physiological or genetic issue), toenail/paw/pad issues. Fortunately, selection produces dogs that are generally very healthy to an age of 4-5 and often more, as this coincides with breeding ages. That greys live 10-12 years or more is comforting; Molotov will be 13 in 3 days, and he sired >7600 pups. It's tough to intentionally breed for things like longevity.

 

 

[RobinM]

He's a smart boy. Tripoding is something my Beau does too, when his leg is bothering him. That's a good thing!

He'll know when it's time to walk on it again.

hugs to Darryl.

[Guest simile]

Poor Darrel. Feel better soon, big guy. I do love his fuzzy tail, though . Running around on three legs? Yep, they do adapt fast, don't they?

 

The talk about their feet has been interesting. Chloe is AKC, but her lineage is NGA just a few short generations back. She's been running (and running hard) since I got her, in my back yard and at the dog park, summer and winter. The only time I've put boots on her was when she was very young, and now when it hits 0 or colder, and we're going to be outside for more than 10 minutes or so. Tip, a recently retired racer, gets boots on all the time. His feet get COLD. So I'm wondering if it's more a matter of conditioning. The AKC breed standard states that the feet are... "...Hard and close, rather more hare than cat feet, well knuckled up with good strong claws" and greyhounds as a type their feet... "...are very important. They are strong, well arched, and thickly padded." I know that are some pretty distinct differences between AKC and NGA dogs, but I also know that folks who breed for coursing draw from both lines, and coursers need tough, strong feet. So, conditioning? Breeding? I really don't know. It's just really interesting.

[Batmom]

Wait a minute. Isn't this Frozen Darrel we're talking about? Are you sure he ran, or did that squirrel leap forth from the trees and attack him? Hmmm?

 

Whatever *really* happened, I'm sorry he's hurt and hope he heals up quickly!

 

And yes, we've had the thin skin issues here.

[Guest weisster]

Yes, this is frozen Darrel (who by the way never outgrew that) How nice that you remember. Sadly he's not frozen in his own backyard. I'm sure those squirrels have ganged up in a revenge vendetta because he picked up one of their young in his mouth, sadly not knowing his own strength.

He's be returning to the vet today...bandage change. Even crippled, he wants to go for a walk in the ice and cold. That is not happening.

 

[Guest simile]

What a great picture! I love his smile. For a boy swathed in bandages, he's looking pretty comfortable and laid back.

[Batmom]

I remember Frozen Darrel because I smile every time I think of him, frozen or not. He's such a handsome character, and he's got good people to take care of him when unintended consequences arise.

[silverfish]

That is one spoiled hound!