Loves Hunting Groundhogs

[turbotaina]

...

 

And E-collars are perfectly safe and humane, ....

 

No, they are not. http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/are-electronic-shock-collars-painful-or-just-annoying-to-dogs-a-new-study-r

 

And in another study, dogs trained using e-collars did not learn any faster than dogs trained using reward based techniques, and showed significantly more time tense, more yawning, less time in environmental engagement (iow, more shut down): http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102722

 

Why cause your dog discomfort or pain if you have the option not to do so?

Edited July 16, 2015 by turbotaina

[Guest MnMDogs]

 

You will not break your wrist or dislocate your shoulder if you pay attention and hold the leash properly. I regularly hike with two male greyhounds, both strong dogs, both leashed, both high prey driven, both have chased, caught or killed small animals in the yard. When walking or hiking I have the leash handles looped on my wrist and wrapped twice around my hand. I keep my eyes open and I don't have problems (even though they're the two most disorganized dogs ever). My prior greyhound was huge - he weighed in at about 80lbs and had a high prey drive outdoors. He also chased, caught and killed animals in the yard. I did not have any problems hiking him, and we hiked all over.

 

You need to train your dog to "leave it" and "watch me" so when you see his interest piqued, you distract him. There are a million threads on here for that advice, and I won't go into it here. You need to keep your dog on leash. Not only is he needlessly killing wildlife (I live in rural Maryland and I'm not a fan of groundhogs, but neither do I think it's cool to allow my dogs to kill them), he is also potentially getting himself into some serious danger. You say you live in Pennsylvania. Since I live in Maryland, I'm sure deer are as numerous there they are where I live. Have you ever encountered a buck in rut? If your dog goes after one (and you say he's showing an interest in deer now), he can be killed or severely injured by the buck. If he gives chase, he can be injured by any number of natural objects (search online for coyote dogs and you'll see what happens when greyhound skin meets barbed wire fence). Even a groundhog can cause severe damage if it gets his thin skin with those razor rodent teeth. There was once a GT member whose lurcher cornered a porcupine (in their yard) and was quilled. One of the quills punctured the dog's lungs and he died. You also run the risk of your dog coming into contact with rabid raccoons, foxes, cats, etc. Where I live, bears were recently seen. IT IS NOT SAFE TO LET A PREY-DRIVEN DOG OFF LEASH. I really hope you'll take this to heart.

 

Also, please do not go the e-collar route. They are not humane, especially in the hands of an inexperienced trainer.

 

Look, I get that you want to hike with your pup off-leash and you want to see him have fun. But your dog just isn't a good candidate for it.

 

Best of luck to you both.

Please listen to Meredith. It's just not safe to keep letting your boy off leash.

[Guest IggyDeer]

I may not have been clear about how often my dog is left off leash…92% of the time, he is leashed. Honestly, I’m not even sure mentioning that having him off leash was relevant. We walk mostly in public parks where there are other people and dogs, and I would never let him off leash in that situation. Its unsafe for everybody…I get that, trust me. I am not an irresponsible dog owner. Or a moron.

I realize this post came off as though I was saying “I want my high-prey drive dog off leash 24/7 but i don’t want him to ever run away.” He’s a dog (a greyhound, at that), most dogs like to hunt and chase, no dog is perfect. I came to this forum because I noticed that recently his prey drive has been sparked and it seems to be taking over his off-leash AND on-leash behavior. For instance, I took him on a safe, leashed 25 minute walk last night and the ENTIRE time he was on guard, looking for prey. I tried redirecting his attention to me, but he’s just too distracted. This is new behavior for him, and I was seeking advice on how to curb it. Instead, I got yelled at and called irresponsible. I know I was probably unclear with the details, but yikes…i didn’t expect the repercussions for admitting i let him off leash.

I understand most greyhounds are not recommended to be off leash. I spent some time training him and bonding with him and he proved to me that he was worthy of being off-leash on certain remote hiking locations, and he rarely even leaves my sight and “checked in” with me frequently. He ran too far away twice and came back looking for me both times.

I understand there is the chance of him taking off and not coming back, but isn’t there that chance with any dog? I left him off leash in a large, fenced in yard a few weeks ago and he went after and was sprayed by a skunk. Does that mean I should just keep him indoors? He’s a dog, for Christ’s sake. Why lower the quality of his life by making him stay glued to me at all times, when I could give him a chance to learn better behavior and therefore allow him good exercise, fun and bonding with me, his owner. It’s not fair to him to simply say “he’s a greyhound, he can’t be trained.” As I read through other threads on this site, I see that that is the most common response for these types of situations, and I think thats sad and pessimistic.

Maybe he is banished to an on-leash life forever, but I’d like to at least give him an honest try. I plan on reteaching him some basics and I’ve contacted a trainer with greyhound experience who can perhaps formally teach us some things. In the meantime, he is to remain on a leash until he knows better.

[a_daerr]

Since you're new to this board, I'll gently say that the topic of off-leashing greyhounds (at least in the U.S.) is extraordinarily unpopular. The others are right. If people at your adoption group find out you're off-leashing, you can (at minimum) be blacklisted, placed on a DNA (do not adopt) list, and in general, make a lot of enemies. It's not that they're trying to be disrespectful. Many of these people have had firsthand experience searching for a lost dog, or finding one dead due to an owner's irresponsibility.

 

That being said... if you off-leash your dog to hike (right, wrong, or indifferent), I'd strongly recommend a Tagg GPS tracker. The unit attaches to their collar and links to an app on your smartphone. If your dog ever wanders away, you can activate the tracker, and it will ping their GPS coordinates off the closest cell towers every three minutes until they're found. The unit itself costs about $80, and the monthly fee is around $8. But coming from someone who also hikes with dogs, it really is an invaluable tool. I had to use mine for the first time this summer when my Truman went after a group of deer. I wasn't as concerned about the potential for injury as much as I was that he might go to far and be unable to find his way back. Watching him ignore my calls and continue to chase deer for those few moments, I felt so unbelievably helpless.

 

I've never met your dog, so I don't know if his prey-drive and temperament is appropriate for being off-leash. I will say, both of my dogs had been with me for years and had worked through exhaustive amounts of training to be able to hike off-leash. We've hiked hundreds of times without incident, and I'm comfortable with their behavior. But I also understand that there is still inherent risk, and we do what we can to mitigate it. For us, that means lots of consistent recall practice with high value rewards, a good pet insurance policy, and using a GPS unit for unexpected situations. At the end of the day, it's your dog, and you're going to make a decision that you feel comfortable with. My advice is to be proactive. If you insist on off-leashing him, set up any and every safety net possible.

[turbotaina]

Good call on keeping him leashed. Look up how to teach "watch me" and "leave it" and start there with no distractions (again, there should be a ton of threads on these here). Start in your house. Then when it's solid in your house, go outside your front door. When it's solid there, go out to your front yard, get him solid there, etc. You can't just take him outside and walk him and expect him not to be distracted when he hasn't been trained first without distractions. Do not expect him to do graduate level work with a kindergartner education . When training, you build on the 3Ds - distance, duration and distractions. It's incremental.

 

And be careful not to anthropomorphize - his quality of life is in no way diminished if you don't allow him to run off and kill things. I promise In fact, by controlling the things you can control (his safety as much as possible), he'll live a longer, healthier life.

[Guest WhiteWave]

 

No, they are not. http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/are-electronic-shock-collars-painful-or-just-annoying-to-dogs-a-new-study-r

 

And in another study, dogs trained using e-collars did not learn any faster than dogs trained using reward based techniques, and showed significantly more time tense, more yawning, less time in environmental engagement (iow, more shut down): http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102722

 

Why cause your dog discomfort or pain if you have the option not to do so?

My dogs are not tense, no yawning, no shut down. They are perfectly happy and vibrant dogs. I use them because they work for what I need them to work for. I learned how to use them on a Dogo Argentino and modified that to work on the Greyhounds. I have met hundred and hundreds of Greyhounds at farms, tracks, adoption kennels, event etc. and you will hard pressed to find a better behaved, more friendly, outgoing, bomb proof dog than my Joey.

 

I use the collar on him because I do love and care for him and it keeps him safe.

[turbotaina]

...But I also understand that there is still inherent risk, and we do what we can to mitigate it. For us, that means lots of consistent recall practice with high value rewards, a good pet insurance policy, and using a GPS unit for unexpected situations. At the end of the day, it's your dog, and you're going to make a decision that you feel comfortable with. My advice is to be proactive. If you insist on off-leashing him, set up any and every safety net possible.

 

Good advice.

Edited July 17, 2015 by turbotaina

[turbotaina]

My dogs are not tense, no yawning, no shut down. They are perfectly happy and vibrant dogs. I use them because they work for what I need them to work for. I learned how to use them on a Dogo Argentino and modified that to work on the Greyhounds. I have met hundred and hundreds of Greyhounds at farms, tracks, adoption kennels, event etc. and you will hard pressed to find a better behaved, more friendly, outgoing, bomb proof dog than my Joey.

 

I use the collar on him because I do love and care for him and it keeps him safe.

 

I'm not going to continue this dance with you, and I stand by my thoughts on shock training, as I'm sure you will stand by yours, which is your right. However, you will be hard pressed to find any trainer versed in modern, scientifically proven rewards based methods who would recommend an e-collar. Moreover, they are actually banned in several countries, so that should say something. If you read the PLOS-ONE study I posted, you would see that training with a shock collar did not result in faster or better training than reward based methods. So, since positive reinforcement training works just as well as positive punishment (which is what shock collars are) and without adverse effects, why on earth would one use a shock collar and even risk the potential consequences? I don't expect an answer or a response. Just some food for thought

[Jester]

Just another idea instead of a traditional leash that can be pulled out of your hand: I use a harness and a cross-body leash. If my dog launches, I have my entire body weight to use to counteract it. I can lengthen or shorten the leash depending on the situation, and I hold it with my hand most of the time.

 

There are many things you can do to counter-condition to the prey interest, and I think a lot of it has been discussed. The basic theme is that you need to make the dog more interested in you and what you are doing (using food or attention) than in what potential prey might be doing. It isn't something that will be fixed in one walk, but with time and consistency on your part and you can definitely have an impact.

 

Years ago, my dog Chad was bitten on the nose by a turtle. For about two weeks, he would freak out and try to bolt away from anything turtle size (leaves and rocks). We lived in a very wooded neighborhood so it was a real adventure. Working with him with food and my attention, we were able to settle him down and then he was just fine. I would say it took three weeks (one walk a day) to get him over it. I also put out a turtle statue (painted to look real) in yard and on the deck (I would move it around every day) and that helped.

[Guest WhiteWave]

 

I'm not going to continue this dance with you, and I stand by my thoughts on shock training, as I'm sure you will stand by yours, which is your right. However, you will be hard pressed to find any trainer versed in modern, scientifically proven rewards based methods who would recommend an e-collar. Moreover, they are actually banned in several countries, so that should say something. If you read the PLOS-ONE study I posted, you would see that training with a shock collar did not result in faster or better training than reward based methods. So, since positive reinforcement training works just as well as positive punishment (which is what shock collars are) and without adverse effects, why on earth would one use a shock collar and even risk the potential consequences? I don't expect an answer or a response. Just some food for thought

Don't need any food for thought. Did my own research and seen what a positive effect it has had in my dogs lives. That is all I need. I would like to know what positive form of training is going to stop a high prey driven who has made kills dead in his tracks when after prey???? That is what the e-collar does for me. Taught them what they can or can not chase. They enjoy the freedom of running loose on 4,000 acres thanks to the collar.

[NeylasMom]

Don't need any food for thought. Did my own research and seen what a positive effect it has had in my dogs lives. That is all I need. I would like to know what positive form of training is going to stop a high prey driven who has made kills dead in his tracks when after prey???? That is what the e-collar does for me. Taught them what they can or can not chase. They enjoy the freedom of running loose on 4,000 acres thanks to the collar.

It's called reward based training, using whatever the dog finds most reinforcing to reward appropriate behavior. I used it to train Skye to be off leash. A few days ago I called her off of a large group of geese she had given chase to and was about 10' away from. Last week I used it to call her off while in pursuit of a rabbit. No pain or fear needed. It's not magic, it's science.

 

If you choose to use fear or pain to train your dogs, that's fine. No well educated trainer is going to tell you it can't be an effective way to train. But you are incorrect if you believe that it is the ONLY way to get that behavior. What folks are telling you here is that if you so desired, you could achieve the same result without using pain or fear. And the truth is, there may come a day when that behavior doesn't hold up as well as it would have being trained with other methods. To quote Bob Bailey himself, behaviors that are trained using punishment are going to fall apart at some point when put under extreme pressure. He's generally talking in the context of working dogs - military/police dogs, search and rescue dogs, etc. so your dogs may never encounter that type of a situation, but it's still worth considering. And if you don't know who Bob Bailey is or why his word is so valuable, you probably shouldn't be arguing science of dog training.

 

To the OP, can you change this behavior? Absolutely yes. With time and a good training plan that you stick to. The number one thing you've got to do in the meantime is prevent him from killing prey, which means keeping him leashed. Why? All other issues aside, he's getting reinforced for leaving you and running off to chase prey. HUGE reinforcement. Every single time that happens, your work becomes more difficult because again, that is a huge reinforcement. Hunting is also essentially a sequence of ingrained behaviors and once the sequence starts, especially if you have a dog that will finish it, it can be very difficult to interrupt it. So the best approach is to train him to not give chase in the first place and you absolutely cannot do that without a leash. Then find a good reward based trainer who has a really good system for teaching recalls, maybe even someone who teaches a recall class (we teach a 3 week clinic at the school where I teach) and get in the classes. Do the work. You may never be able to let this dog off leash safely, but even if you need to keep him on leash, you'll have a much more attentive dog and you'll have the safety net of a good recall if he does get loose.

[turbotaina]

IggyDeer - of all the people who have posted on this thread, Neylasmom is an actual dog trainer, so please take that into consideration. BTW, I would like to add that I *do* think that some dogs can be trained to be off-leash - I'm not anti-off-leash (except in areas where leashes are the law, but that's a whole other gripe ), but as Alicia (adaerr) and Jen (Neylasmom) have both stated, it does take a lot of training. Best of luck with your pup.

Edited July 17, 2015 by turbotaina

[Guest WhiteWave]

It's called reward based training, using whatever the dog finds most reinforcing to reward appropriate behavior. I used it to train Skye to be off leash. A few days ago I called her off of a large group of geese she had given chase to and was about 10' away from. Last week I used it to call her off while in pursuit of a rabbit. No pain or fear needed. It's not magic, it's science.

 

If you choose to use fear or pain to train your dogs, that's fine. No well educated trainer is going to tell you it can't be an effective way to train. But you are incorrect if you believe that it is the ONLY way to get that behavior. What folks are telling you here is that if you so desired, you could achieve the same result without using pain or fear. And the truth is, there may come a day when that behavior doesn't hold up as well as it would have being trained with other methods. To quote Bob Bailey himself, behaviors that are trained using punishment are going to fall apart at some point when put under extreme pressure. He's generally talking in the context of working dogs - military/police dogs, search and rescue dogs, etc. so your dogs may never encounter that type of a situation, but it's still worth considering. And if you don't know who Bob Bailey is or why his word is so valuable, you probably shouldn't be arguing science of dog training.

 

Never said it is the only way. I have ran my dogs off leash my entire life and only just started using the e-collar a year ago. I don't use for regular training, I use it for a back up to keep my dogs safe in particular situations. I am not dealing with A dog, I am dealing with a pack of dogs. I run them all off leash in a 4,000 park with game. E-collars helps ensure they are kept safe and the critters are kept safe.

 

My dogs do not fear me and honestly if you the e-collar is causing pain you aren't using it right. It is no more painful than a static shock. I tried it on myself before ever using it on the dogs. It took a higher level of stim before I even felt it. And 99.9% of the time, I just use vibrate. Works great on deaf dogs I train.

 

I'm done with this thread and this board. Every time I come back here there are too many stuck up, close minded people. I prefer the company of my dogs. so after work, we will be heading to our park. They will wear their e-collars and run, play and just have a grand ol' time being dogs.

 

 

[NeylasMom]

Your words: "I would like to know what positive form of training is going to stop a high prey driven who has made kills dead in his tracks when after prey?"

 

I guess you didn't actually want to know. And yet we're the close minded ones. Have fun with your dogs!

[4My2Greys]

 

I'm done with this thread and this board. Every time I come back here there are too many stuck up, close minded people. I prefer the company of my dogs. so after work, we will be heading to our park. They will wear their e-collars and run, play and just have a grand ol' time being dogs.

 

 

I really hate to hear this. I for one have always loved the photos you've shared of your pack enjoying themselves.