Need Further Help With My Pooch.

[Guest GreytScott]

I posted a handful of days ago about Kingsley's scary (for me) off leash adventure and then, later, about the onset of him displaying some fearful growling and barking towards my husband. A more detailed explanation of the latter can be found in the following post: http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/305693-aggression/

At any rate, we've been implementing some of the excellent advice therein and thus far haven't made much progress. It's only been a few days so I'm not terribly concerned, we'll just keep trying. We're stubborn like that. To update, Kingsley always seems fearful of my husband, but the growling and barking is not consistent. It's definitely frequent (at least two or three times a day) but it isn't every time he sees my husband. I'm beginning to wonder if it has to do with his stress level (if the house is noisy, for instance, he seems more likely to exhibit the behavior) or even with "protecting" me, since he does it MOST often when my husband and I are in the same room and Kingsley notices my husband approaching or standing a short distance away.

But my real question is regarding some basic training. Now that Kingsley is quite comfortable with me I'd like to start him learning some actual commands. I figured doing so would bring up his confidence level and could be a way of my husband working with him in a consistent way.

However, I'm not sure how to get him interested in the first place. I tried the method from Never Say Never Greyhounds of associating the sound of the clicker with treats by placing a treat atop a cup and clicking when he takes the treat, then going from there. He just doesn't care, it's as if he's telling me he's got too much dignity to put up with my repetitive nonsense. He'll turn his back on me and refuse to take the treats after a repetition or two.

So I tried a higher value treat. I put a thin layer of peanut butter on a slice of sandwich bread and pinched off pieces for him. He was definitely interested in the food but still wasn't putting up with my shenanigans. I tried luring him as well, so I could work into luring him into positions, and that was a total flop. He will follow the treat with his eyes but won't otherwise move, and will abandon the endeavor very quickly.

I'm at a loss for what to do at this point, since pretty much everywhere I have looked for training tips has just suggested luring the dog into positions and clicking to mark the behavior. We can't afford actual training classes at the moment, husband-man's job is feast or famine contract work and we're currently in famine status, only able to afford the bare necessities.

Some advice would be very much appreciated!! Thanks!

[grey14me]

I just saw this for the first time a week or so ago...I found it very interesting.

 

http://yourdogsfriend.org/spoon-theory-and-funny-dog-gifs/

[OwnedBySummer]

Perhaps your dog will work for something else? My girl doesn't particularly work for treats, either. When we did agility last summer, she worked for praise. Some dogs will work for toys. Experiment a bit and you should be able to find something that he will work for. He may even actually be willing to work for treats but needs a higher value item.

[Guest GreytScott]

I just saw this for the first time a week or so ago...I found it very interesting.

 

http://yourdogsfriend.org/spoon-theory-and-funny-dog-gifs/

 

Yep, it was suggested I look that up when I posted the other day. We've been on our game making sure we're helping Kingsley "conserve his spoons," and, again, I think we're making progress but I'm pretty sure it's still too soon to tell, since he still seems to lose all his spoons instantly when he sees husband-man. Like when Sonic the Hedgehog touches an enemy.

 

Oh, and for what it's worth, husband-man is not doing any of the training at the moment, as Kingsley's too fearful and I don't want to overwhelm him. Also, we were before, but I'm making extra sure I'm keeping interactions with the kids to a minimum, though most of the time he seems agreeable to being around them.

Edited March 10, 2014 by GreytScott

[Sambuca]

If he doesn't like repetition, don't do it. Do something once or twice and move onto something new. As for treats, you need to find what works for your dog. Sailors favorite thing is bagel and cream cheese. Bu prefers meatloaf and brisket. Many dogs like cheese, hot dogs, deli meat, and tripe. Try to rotate through things. Even during one training session a variety of treats can be useful. For something easy such as touch, a piece of kibble may be sufficient. For something difficult like sit, tripe would be more appropriate. Training should be lots of fun. I find it can be hard on both me and the dog if I go in with the wrong mindset. I now go to class with the idea that we'll have fun and maybe learn something instead of we need to learn something today. One day I asked my teacher why the dog couldn't understand me. She said my question was the problem. I should be asking what I could do to make it more clear to him. It's much easier said than done in my opinion, but it made me think.

[Guest GreytScott]

Perhaps your dog will work for something else? My girl doesn't particularly work for treats, either. When we did agility last summer, she worked for praise. Some dogs will work for toys. Experiment a bit and you should be able to find something that he will work for. He may even actually be willing to work for treats but needs a higher value item.

 

If he doesn't like repetition, don't do it. Do something once or twice and move onto something new. As for treats, you need to find what works for your dog.

 

...One day I asked my teacher why the dog couldn't understand me. She said my question was the problem. I should be asking what I could do to make it more clear to him. It's much easier said than done in my opinion, but it made me think.

 

I'll keep trying different things to see what will motivate him. When it comes to repetition, I haven't gotten past helping him associate the reward with the click, we haven't been able to move on to actual behaviors at all. I don't want to confuse or frustrate him or put him off of training altogether, so I throw in the towel when I can tell he's not interested, and I'll try something else later. The issue is that I can't get to the point where he'll do anything besides stand there staring at me. I'm not sure what to do to help him understand.

Edited March 10, 2014 by GreytScott

[krissy]

He will follow the treat with his eyes but won't otherwise move, and will abandon the endeavor very quickly.

 

So reward him for that. Training is all about small steps and some dogs take smaller steps than others. When I trained Summit to retrieve I had to bait a toy and then click and treat every time he touched the toy with his nose to start. But with Kili I just wiggle a toy and she grabs it. If I had waited for Summit to actually grab a toy I would have gotten nowhere.

 

And a dog shouldn't get tired of "repetition" if you're just loading the clicker. You're not asking him to do anything except eat food, so unless he is not at all interested in the food you give him there's no reason for the dog to lose interest. It's no different than standing there for no reason and handing out a couple of cookies in a row. You are not clicking and waiting for a reaction from the dog. It is literally "click" and almost instantly after presenting the treat. Nothing to get tired of except chewing!

[Guest GreytScott]

Noted, krissy! I rewarded him a few times for just following it with his eyes. I was looking for something beyond that, but I'm officially feeling like I probably ought not expect much more than that for a little while. I suppose my only worry is that I won't know when to move on from that. I know "what ifs" are a waste of time but what if he never wants to do more than just follow the food with his eyes, and just walk away otherwise?

We've got a freezer full of meat, I'm going to put aside some of what we cook to use in training for him and see if he's interested enough with that. Toys don't seem to matter to him whatsoever, though he does occasionally relish any praise I give him. I will see if praise is a suitable motivator next time I try training, and if not I'll just keep trying different foods. He does love food a lot, so maybe the combination of starting small and high value treats we'll eventually make some progress.

Edited March 10, 2014 by GreytScott

[Banjoman]

Maybe you should do your training when he is hungry and wanting food?

 

As I have been transitioning Chancey on to a new food i haven't wanted to give her too many treats and upset her tummy so I've been teaching "touch" my hand while waiting for her kibble to soak using pieces dry kibble and she now will 'touch' to earn her meal.. Also been working on "Look at me" using kibble, small pieces of cheese or any other foodstuffs like vegetables when I'm preparing them for cooking. After her first hesitant taste she now loves apple cores & comes out to the kitchen when she realises I'm peeling an apple so she has to "Look at me" for her piece.

[MaryJane]

IMHO, many greyhounds are too smart to be trained like other dogs. They don't like the repetition of training and they don't like what seems to be pointless exercises - at least that is my take. They get bored very quickly and will regress.

 

Most dogs are eager to please, greyhounds .. not so much.

 

I usually don't like to use treats/clicker training with my dogs as I find that I get the best responses by using my voice and being really happy when they do something that I want. I will treat at the end of a training session but, not during. One way that I found to build a firm bond with a new greyhound is to walk (and with a purpose). I usually walk briskly with a tighter lead for about 10 to 15 minutes then give them a loose lead for a few minutes to sniff and then again to a tighter lead. You can do the basic commands like heel, faster, slower, wait, stop, left, right, and turn when you are walking. One of my favorites is doing a large figure 8 on a cul-de-sac, it gets the dog to learn to stay tight against your leg and to anticipate your moves. When you are walking - talk to your dog.

[Guest Giselle]

I don't think Greyhounds are any smarter than any other dog. I also don't think Border Collies are any smarter than any other dog I just think dogs have different drives and different motivations. What I DO think is that greyhounds tend to attract owners who aren't interested in training high-level obedience or dog sports, which perpetuates the myth that they're untrainable or don't like to train or are "different" and can't be trained conventionally..

 

Now, don't take this the wrong way, but the problem is likely your slow timing, lack of criteria, and inappropriate rate of reinforcement. It's not your fault. It's just typical of new trainers. Animal training is a skill. It takes practice and diligence and, most times, a teacher/mentor. If this is your first time trying to train via shaping and clickers, you'll really need someone to show you at least once how to do it. Have you watched videos on how to shape behaviors? Here are some good starters.

Impulse control "Leave It" is probably the very first behavior I teach any dog, and Kikopup produces great videos:

A quick explanation and cute trick:

 

Can you find a local dog training club that will let you at least watch a couple classes for free?

[Guest GreytScott]

You're right, Giselle, I'm not very practiced at training at all! I appreciate the videos and will watch them after I get home from work. Not sure about sitting in on a class but I think I know of a place or two that might allow it. I hadn't thought of that.

[RedHead]

I have always done clicker/trick training for fun with my other animals and was also very dismayed at first with my greyhound. I actually gave up because he showed little interest, wouldn't lure, didn't seem to pick up tricks like the rest of my animals had, etc. I got some motivation from this board though and started up again, and with time he really improved. I now have him doing some simple tricks, and he finally "gets" the concept of the training and will offer up behaviours on his own which is amazing considering how he started off. I started by using a little stick with a ball on the end for him to target with his nose. I actually had to clicker train him to follow it as he doesn't lure very well.

 

So...I guess my advice is to not give up!! I had the exact same feelings as you in the beginning, but with practice, things really improved. We keep training short and fun, and finally found some foods that motivate him (he is also a picky one!). Keep plugging away at it!

[Guest Houston1219]

Everyone here is very right, and toy sound much like me in the beginning. "loading the clicker" is really loading the dog I came to find out. The right food works wonders. You have to find your personal "puppy crack" as BF calls it lol. Quite literally, *click* sick a treat in his mouth. As soon as he swallows *click* pop another one in. Use small treats when he's really hungry (like "oops, mom forgot breakfast" hungry!) And do it a million times. When the light bulb goes on you will know it! He will hear a click and open his mouth and you have established that the clicker is God lol

[krissy]

now have him doing some simple tricks, and he finally "gets" the concept of the training and will offer up behaviours on his own which is amazing considering how he started off.

This. Dogs who have not been trained specifically to offer behaviours do not understand what to do. They need to "learn how to learn". Summit got better and better at offering behaviours. Now if he isn't sure what I want... he just starts trying behaviours until he finds what I want or I give him some direction. But it doesn't start out like that and we can't expect it. That just leads to frustration on both sides.

[Guest GreytScott]

Giselle, the videos were excellent and extremely helpful! I even subscribed to her channel.

When it comes to luring/offered behaviors, things like Sit, Down, Stay, I think I'm going to practice training with Birdie first, as her personality lends itself well to training with a novice trainer like myself. I've already been able to teach her a few things, so I'll practice with her and when I'm a bit more adept I'll begin working on those behaviors with King. Right now, with King, I think Touch and Leave It will be good starting points, as he is very motivated by the right kind of food and only one of the behaviors requires him to actually do anything and should come pretty naturally to him. He's pretty much always interested in what I may have in my hands.

I wondered if it would be better, at first, to work with King when husband-man is not at home, just because Kingsley is a totally different dog when it's just me and the kids. He's up and about, earsies perked, meandering through the living room with Birdie, snuffling with interest at the kids. He's just more open, and I think he'll have a better chance at success. When DH is home Kingsley will barely even look up from wherever he's lying down unless it's to bark at DH.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Actually I think you should NOT be doing any of the training and your HUSBAND should be doing all of the training. If he is fearful of men, then the man should be the one that feeds him, walks him, plays with him, loves him, trains him, etc.

 

I say this out of experience. One of my females was so afraid of men she would simply run and hide at the back of her crate when I came into the room. I sat down and hand-fed every single meal she ate for the first 4 months she was at my house. I also gave all treats, training and walks. My wife paid minimal attention to her, except of course when Olive would go to my wife, she would love on her, but that was it. Of course for the first two months there was no real training happening since she was so fearful of me, but slowly over the weeks she started looking to me for treats when I would give my other hounds treats, and she would get so excited when I grabbed the least to take them for a walk. For the first few weeks your husband may find it easier to simply sit on the floor with his back to your pup and hold treats behind his back. It may take weeks of this for the trust to be developed, but it needs to happen. Once he can sit on the floor and hold the treats in front of him, then training can start.

 

Of course this is my opinion from very fearful hounds that have come through my house as fosters or my own hounds. Others most certainly will disagree with me.

[3greytjoys]

Agree with Chad re: your husband sitting on floor level tossing treats behind husband's back without any direct eye contact with Kingsley; later feeding meals by hand. (Face-to-face or eye-to-eye contact is often considered threatening in dog language.) Agree with Batmom (in your previous thread) about your husband becoming a treat tossing dispenser. I'd suggest (quiet) treat tossing exercises first, then graduate to feeding meals from your husband's hands while husband quietly sits on floor looking away from Kingsley. These exercises are well-proven to be very effective.

 

My favorite teaching method is to catch Greyhounds doing something right -- naturally on their own.

If Kingsley is already very comfortable with you, teaching him words for his natural behaviors in a relaxed, non-threatening manner could be helpful. Just be careful to avoid overloading him.

(If needed later, formal, positive reward method training could be done by your husband after your husband earns Kingsley's trust with daily tasks like feeding and walking. Each dog's situation is different, but if your husband tries training too soon, Kingsley may temporarily shut-down to learning, and lose progressive steps in trust.)

 

Natural training examples for you:

"Down" - Get ready with a treat. Watch for Kingsley to start to lie down naturally. While he's lowering himself into the "down" position, say the word "down" and immediately reward with a yummy treat and praise with a gooood boy. Then leave him alone since it's best to adhere to the wise adage "let resting dogs lie" (without disturbing them). Repeat the exercise each day or several times per week when Kingsley begins to lie down on his own. Soon, he will connect the word to the action.

 

"Come" - Say "Kingsley come" in a very happy voice when it's meal time, high value treat time, or another activity that is super exciting to him (walk, car ride, or whatever). Reward and praise!

(Only use a command once when you know he will respond. Don't repeat a command 5-10 times; that teaches the dog that he will only come when and if he feels like it.)

Important: Never call him to you for anything that isn't a wonderful reward in his own mind. (Otherwise, dogs quickly learn to avoid humans when called whether a true emergency or not.)

 

"Heel" - Same idea for teaching "heel" when he's leashed and walking with his right shoulder next to your left thigh. Do some figure 8's while he's on a short leash but without tension on his neck. Remember to reward with treats and happy voice making it fun for Kingsley.

 

"Wait" - Teaching "wait" can be practiced in daily life while he's safely controlled with a leash and/or blocked by your body whenever he's waiting for doors to be opened, or stopping before crossing streets during walks, etc.

 

"Sit" - I would not rush to begin teaching "sit". Some Greyhounds should never be taught to sit if they've had a racing injury to the spine or hind legs. Sitting is not comfortable for the long-legged Greyhound breed. Some Greyhounds will only do a side sit (vs. a straight sit) which is fine considering their unique body design. Teaching sit "naturally" may (or may not) require the dog have a deeper trust level that is usually obtained after a longer time living in their new environment. "Sit" could be the last command you teach (if at all).

 

Teaching "Sit" - Please do not physically push a Greyhound into a sit. (Many dogs will bite from fear if being negatively forced/manhandled that way, and lose trust in their human during the process.) Instead, try teaching "sit" naturally when dog is about to lie down to relax on soft flooring (carpet or dog bed indoors, or outside on grass). Simply watch for the dog to place his butt on the floor (halfway between standing and lying down), then calmly step in front of the dog to block him from lying all the way down. Immediately say "sit" while instantly providing a rare yummy meat reward with verbal praise. Then human moves away to let the dog relax. Repeat this "sit" lesson only when Kingsley is dropping into a relaxing down position naturally. Sitting is usually an odd feeling to a Greyhound, but he will connect the new feeling of sitting with your word "sit". Just practice once each day or two. Your relaxed patience will pay off with his continued trust.

 

"Release" I'd encourage you to teach the word "release" whenever he's free to move about e.g., after he's "waited" for a car door to be opened. Release is an excellent word to use for dogs since it's not used often in daily language between humans.

Edited March 12, 2014 by 3greytjoys

[Guest HeatherLee]

IMHO, many greyhounds are too smart to be trained like other dogs. They don't like the repetition of training and they don't like what seems to be pointless exercises - at least that is my take. They get bored very quickly and will regress.

 

Most dogs are eager to please, greyhounds .. not so much.

 

 

Can I just say that I agree with this SO MUCH? While I don't disagree with other posters in this thread who obviously are very good at what they do and are quite knowledgeable, I share the same POV as MaryJane on this one. I'd say more but it would get me in trouble.

 

Perhaps it is best to find the training that works best for both the dog AND it's owner? For example.. the trainer should be teaching the dog in a way they understand, feel comfortable with, and that they also enjoy. If the dog knows you hate or don't understand what you're doing, he's not going to learn anything and both of you will only get frustrated. For a long time after getting my dog, I tried clicker training sessions with him because I believed it was the best way to learn, and even though I agree with the philosophy of clicker training and think it's a great way to train.. ultimately I got bored with it and it just felt pointless. It just didn't fit with my personality. Thus it didn't fit with my dog's.

[Guest Lillypad]

I can only speak for myself her, every situation and scenario is unique. It took sometime (maybe as much as a year???) for Lilly and I to bond. You and your family's relationship with Kingsley is so new. IMO give it some more time together and I am sure you will see him bloom. I really didn't even realize how much bonding we were doing and exactly how far we came, until friends and family pointed it out to me. Just this weekend at an agility clinic, a trainer said when she met us last year, it was though Lilly was in her own little world and now she is so much more engaged in our activities.

 

I have been reading through the advice, (what I love about Greytalk, I learn so much) and agree it is so important for your husband to be involved in the socializing and training. How unfortunate that he is not comfortable with your husband, this must be very hard for your husband. Our girl was not comfortable with our teenage son (although she never growled) he is too loud, too rambunctious, so we had our son spend extra time with her. Feed, treats, walk, but I really believe it was when they played together that she really learned to like him. He plays fetch and tug with her in the yard.

 

You mentioned lessons are out of the question due to funds, we can all relate to that. I am trying to think of a way to address that problem. Maybe other greytalk folks will have a suggestion. Could you meet with other greyhound folks in your area or adoption group and have a more experienced owner coach you. Is there anyway your could volunteer at a K9 school on a sort of barter situation. I may be grasping at straws here, it just seems a shame that you are so eager to train but restricted by money. I am wondering if taking Kingsley outside of the home for training would be more motivational than just trying to train at home. I practice at home, but it would really take a lot of the fun out of training if we could not have our "night out" and meet up with our classmates. Best wishes, I am hopeful things will work out well, tell your husband we are cheering for him.

[krissn333]

We started basic obedience with Clarice last week. She works for her kibble every evening - I use her food as her training treats!

 

If we are learning something new I use small pieces of hot dog to teach her the behavior. When we are practicing things we've learned, she trains for her kibble

 

I agree your husband needs to provide him with the things he needs. My parents' girl was afraid of my dad, so, Dad is the one that walked her. She loved walks, so, he was quickly an okay guy

[Guest FinnsMama]

Praise works bestfor us, too. Finn wants,so much, to please. One of the first phrases he learned was: Good job!