Heart Breaking Decision

[Guest PiagetsMom]

I always hesitate to post in these types of behavioral threads, but I've been following it and have to say - I think that if you decide to keep Ami, you and she need to be working with a certified veterinary behaviorist, not a trainer. I know they're few and far between, and I don't know if there are any in your area. They can be expensive.

 

As to whether you should return her, I think it's not a good thing to be afraid of your dog.....and there are pups who have behavioral issues in one home, who are returned and rehomed and do not have those issues in another home where it is a better fit. As I've seen it said here recently, "there's a right dog for every home, and a right home for every dog."

 

I know you're conflicted, and my heart goes out to you

[Acadianarose]

You said you knew in your heart it wasn't a good fit. It is not fair to you or the dog to try to force it to work if it won't. But make sure you are not just experiencing a knee-jerk reaction. I considered returning Payton at first, but I am so glad I didn't.

 

There is nothing wrong whatsoever in returning the dog. I know it is a difficult decision.

 

ETA: I just realized that you have had her for 6 months. If things are getting worse, I don't know if they will get better without serious professional help. And as said, that kind of help is few and far between.

 

Hugs to you and Ami.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Acadianarose

[Guest Clawsandpaws]

 

 

As to whether you should return her, I think it's not a good thing to be afraid of your dog.....and there are pups who have behavioral issues in one home, who are returned and rehomed and do not have those issues in another home where it is a better fit. As I've seen it said here recently, "there's a right dog for every home, and a right home for every dog."

 

^^^ This. You should not be afraid of your dog. It is one thing to respect that you are living with a dog who needs space, but if you are outright afraid, why would you put yourself through that? Being a first time dog owner isn't always easy, but there is no reason for it to be this hard for you. I think you are both scared, overwhelmed and in need of some separation. This has nothing to do with "being a bad owner/person" and everything to do with this being the wrong match. Personally, I would return her. I do not want to be afraid of my pet. The trust between you two seems non-existent, and that's okay! Sometimes the trust can be restored or repaired, and sometimes it cannot. I love my greyhound to pieces, he was my first dog too, we had some issues in the beginning, but NOTHING like what you have been going through, and I STILL muzzle my dog on occasion if I feel unsure about his reaction (ie: anything medical I have to do to him, etc) The only thing I would recommend, is to make sure your group will handle her appropriately, if you are unsure, then talk to another group about what to do. Good luck, dry those tears, it's going to suck, but you will both be okay.

[Willowsmum]

I am so sorry you are going through this. I researched greys, read the book, and was heartbroken that Willow was not the right dog for us. She needed a home with other dogs or someone who didn't go out. Training, medication, and time would not change that. Our rescue's behaviorist said I tried everything she would have and advised me to return the poor dog to be rehomed. My husband was ready to give up on his dream to have a dog (due to may allergies), and greyhounds in particular as "spooky". The behaviorist told me *her* tale of needing to rehome a dog, and the foster dad who popped a dog in her back seat for the ride home--a dog that turned out to be one of her favorites.

 

They essentially did the same to me, (after I had time to think about it and say I'd try). They gave me a bounce who had been an only dog and who had lived happily with an elderly couple who could no longer keep up with him. I will never forget being at the foster home's back yard and Willow trotting off away from us without a glance back to be with the pack of dogs there. Just then a big black goofy dog trotted up to us of his own accord to say hi, and it was almost a sign that taking him home was the right thing to do. It was the best leap of faith I ever took. I love him to bits! He has his quirks, but honestly, I don't think I'll ever be lucky enough to have a dog so gentle, tolerant, sweet *and* clean in the house. We love "the old man".

 

I echo the poster who said ask about a bounce. Many dogs are rehomed through no fault of their own--people get divorced, move to apartments that don't allow pets, lose jobs and can't afford to feed a large dog, get too frail to care for a dog, a dog with a good "track record" off the track might be a better fit for you.

 

I admire people who can work wonders with misunderstood or difficult dogs, but I have accepted I am not that person. I provide a good loving home to a forgiving dog who has taught me so much about how to interact with dogs without having to bite me for it.

 

Even with the knowledge and experience I have now, I don't think we'd be the right home for an off-the-track dog. When the time comes that Shadow leaves us, and may it be a *very* long time, I want to wait for another older, good, goofy boy who had known and appreciated a good home and lost it due to bad luck.

 

There are many people who with time, patience, training (of people and dog) have turned around hard-to-handle dogs, and maybe that could be you. But if it isn't, there's no shame in it. You shouldn't live in a home with dogs you are afraid of. It just won't end well for anyone, man or beast.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Willowsmum

[JJNg]

I have to ask...after doing so well with her yesterday and this morning, why would an assessment by a seemingly incompetent (more on that later) trainer make you decide you need to return her? If your decision is solely based on this trainer's assessment, I would urge you to reconsider. If it's based on your entire experience with Ami and considering whether you're up for this task, then it may be the best choice. Especially if you are scared and not comfortable working with her, it may be better to let her go to a more experienced home.

I agree with Batmom that trying to train her to sit was inappropriate. How experienced is this trainer with greyhounds? While training 'sit' is often one of the first basic commands and is fairly easily taught to most other dogs, it is one of the hardest things to teach a greyhound, and something many greyhounds don't do naturally or comfortably. How exactly was the trainer trying to teach sit that made her aggressive?

Regardless of what the trainer was trying to do, provoking an aggressive response is harmful and totally unnecessary. To me, this is a sign of an incompetent trainer who does not have a good understanding of canine body language and stress. The fact that she worked with Ami for 2 hours is another red flag - way too long of a session, especially for a dog who is stressed. I also find it disturbing that the trainer would deem her "not pet material"...does that mean she would recommend euthanasia? IMO, there are few dogs who are truly 'not pet material'. Most are just stressed and need an understanding home that can put the time and effort into earning their trust and teaching them basic manners and guidelines.

[Guest jetska]

Totally agree with everyone who criticised the trainer. How can you 'work' with a dog for 2 hrs if it is nervous and stressed? Maybe observe the dog, but teaching it to 'sit' ? Teaching sit should involve lots of hotdog, praise and a very short session. When I had had Barbie 6 months she could still only work for 40 mins at training with breaks in between before spacing out!

[Brandiandwe]

At the end of the day only you can make this call. Being afraid of your dog isn't good. But that doesn't mean that you should give up on greys altogether! So split it out. It sounds as if rehoming might be the best thing for everyone right now. But definitely don't do it on the say so of that trainer and don't give up on Ami never finding the right home. Our Paige should never have been rehomed and according to one of the vets, would not have been given to us were she in that day. Two years on, that vet still says she shouldn't have been rehomed BUT that she's in the right home with us. Ami might be the same with you being a step along the way.

 

It is also important to know your limits. You sound like a great family who needs a different dog. There's no shame in that. If I knew then what I do now, d have adopted a big mellow boy or two instead of two nutbag young females. I can almost guarantee that our Hermon would wander onto your sofa and fit in as he is now. You will find the dog who is waiting for you.

 

Don't be too hard on yourself. You will make the right decision.

[Hubcitypam]

A trainer who's first priority is to make a greyhound sit is WAYYYYYYY off base.

[Guest Amis_Ma]

Regardless of the trainer, Ami's just not a good fit for our family. I have no children but have a 1yr old niece and when she comes over I need to crate Ami because even though she loves my niece I don't trust her and can't take the risk. I've had her for 6months and she's gotten worse. I spent lots of money of training and toys, med check-ups, read all the recommended books, followed the program to no avail.

 

I'm one to remain dedicated to everything I do but in this case it just seems as though I'm to ashamed to admit that I can't handle her.

 

I see other greys and they are big ole goofballs and I'm envious.

 

We first noticed her aggression a month in and when we brought her to the adoption agency they agreed we had an aggressive hound and they provided us training at no cost but nothing helped. In my heart I believe that they didn't offer to rehome her than because they knew it was going to be a difficult process. I could see in the adoption agencies' trainer's eyes and expressions that she was scared of her. It didn't seem she was used to aggressive dogs.

 

I hate being in this position

 

Being a first time dog owner has not been a good experience and now I'm left with a broken heart.

 

 

[Batmom]

I'm sorry you're going through this. Not sure where in CA you are but can you reach out to someone like Yamaha_gurl for adoption-group savvy and moral support?

 

 

I doubt that you have a truly aggressive dog. I think you do have a dog who needs different handling than the group and trainer have provided. Most greyhounds are easy, a few aren't, and you got one of the latter.

[Guest Amis_Ma]

Batmom (I don't know how to use the quote button)

 

I don't seem to have the private message option can you get me in touch with Yamaha_gurl?

[Houndmommy03]

So sorry you are having this experience. It is heartbreaking for you. I had my first greyhound for 3 weeks when I thought I would have to return her and I cried for days. We did keep her (her aggression was no where near what you are dealing with) but she only bonded with my husband and the kids were scared of her and didn't go near her. I crated her when kids came over and adult friends knew to ignore her. I was always a bit scared of her. She died when she was 5 from bone cancer. When I look back, I feel bad for her - I can see now that we were not the right family for her. She was loved and had a good life with us, but I often wonder if her life could have been better if she'd had more experienced owner. I've been a greyhound owner for 10 years now and experience has taught me just what many others have said - just because she isn't a good fit for you, doesn't mean she won't be a good fit for someone with more experience. Also, I would encourage you to talk with another adoption group concerning her (I had a good group that worked with me, but I still reached out to another group and they were a huge help, in ways my adoption group wasn't). Different adoption groups have different levels of experience and views concerning greyhounds. Don't be scared to reach out to a different one, especially if you have concerns about returning her to the group you got her from - a different group may have more experience with a dog like yours. Sending you big hug - I know this situation hurts.

[Batmom]

Batmom (I don't know how to use the quote button)

 

I don't seem to have the private message option can you get me in touch with Yamaha_gurl?

 

Argh, you don't have quite enough posts yet to private message. I will message Yamaha_gurl and see if we can figure something out -- maybe she can email you or link up with you on facebook if you are a user there.

[jetcitywoman]

Just found this thread. Stories like this make me wish that the OP lived near me, because I would totally go over there and check out the situation and help out. I agree with everybody about the trainer who used a completely WRONG approach with a new greyhound. I also agree that the OP isn't a bad owner, but I get the sense they could use some coaching on how to relate to a greyhound. They're a bit different from other dogs in terms of building trust and needing a calm, friendly hand. I wonder if the OP is trying to use alpha training techniques because that's still so pervasive in our society?

 

But anyway, I respect the OP's decision to return the dog. I just think it's a bit premature to consider themselves a failure as doggy owners and never try again. Greyhounds were my first dog too, so I made some mistakes. But once they taught me about themselves, I discovered that they're really the easiest keepers. OP, do try again after some time?

[Guest IrskasMom]

If you are afraid /or unhappy with Ami . Ami will sense that and reacts. Perhaps she is not the right fit for your Family . Do it sooner then later and return her, if both ( Dog and Human ) are unhappy.

Edited December 6, 2013 by IrskasMom

[vjgrey]

Nothing you've said suggests to me that you have an "aggressive" dog. Just a dog who has some issues (e.g. resource guarding) that need to be worked through. With a proper, knowledgable trainer/behaviorist, not a quack who focuses on trying to make her sit.

 

Not all of the greyhounds you see here who are goofy and easy came that way straight out of the box. A LOT of them do, but some also become that kind of dog after a lot of work. If you aren't willing or able to put in that work, you should 100% return her. It's not good for you or for her to live in constant fear.

 

I just hope the group won't follow the trainer's lead and label her "unadoptable" or "not pet material." My first hound, Gabe, might've fallen into that category, but we learned how to manage him and loved every second we had with him before we lost him to Osteo at ten and a half.

Edited December 6, 2013 by vjgrey

[Guest Wasserbuffel]

 

 

Nothing you've said suggests to me that you have an "aggressive" dog. Just a dog who has some issues (e.g. resource guarding) that need to be worked through. With a proper, knowledgable trainer/behaviorist, not a quack who focuses on trying to make her sit.

 

This! If she's greeting her owner's homecoming with a happy helicopter tail, this is not an aggressive dog. This is a very sensitive dog that is prone to reacting in situations she finds stressful.

 

In six months of being handled by people unused to dog language who are provoking reactions in her, she's never once bitten. She didn't even bite the incompetent trainer who was trying to teach her to sit. That's very telling.

 

I think it's in Ami's best interest to be returned. She's not comfortable in your home, and you're not comfortable with her. Please see about using another adoption group though. It's not a good sign that your group keeps calling her aggressive, it doesn't spell good things for her future if that label gets attached to her.

[winnie]

DH and I were first-time dog owners when we adopted our first greyhound. We were very specific with out adoption group that we wanted a confident, easy-going dog. That is exactly what we got in Celeste.

 

We recently got our first galgo, Beatrix. We chose her because she was older and described as low-key. DH and I knew we weren't prepared to deal with a young or majorly traumatized galgo.

 

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with knowing and accepting your limits as a dog owner. There are people that enjoy the more challenging and difficult cases. DH and I aren't those people.

 

Years ago, we had to return a cat we adopted after a year. She was simply not fitting in well with our pack. It wasn't good for her, our other animals or us. We cried for days, but when the dust settled, we were all happier. She found a new home and flourished too.

 

Only you can make the decision to return Ami. I wish you well in whatever choice you make.

[Batmom]

 

This! If she's greeting her owner's homecoming with a happy helicopter tail, this is not an aggressive dog. This is a very sensitive dog that is prone to reacting in situations she finds stressful.

 

In six months of being handled by people unused to dog language who are provoking reactions in her, she's never once bitten. She didn't even bite the incompetent trainer who was trying to teach her to sit. That's very telling.

 

I think it's in Ami's best interest to be returned. She's not comfortable in your home, and you're not comfortable with her. Please see about using another adoption group though. It's not a good sign that your group keeps calling her aggressive, it doesn't spell good things for her future if that label gets attached to her.

 

Yes yes yes yes yes!

 

I messaged Yamaha_gurl so hopefully she will check in here when she's online next. If she isn't close enough to you to help, she might still have some nearby groups/trainers/other resources for you.

[krissy]

I would be interested to know where in Canada you are and what adoption group she came from. There aren't that many groups in Canada. I'm not familiar with groups outside of my province of Ontario, but I'm not sure what group would place a dog like this with a first time dog owner... label a dog as aggressive repeatedly... but also take the time and effort to have a trainer come out to see you (competency of the trainer not withstanding). Most of the groups I know either place dogs very specifically and carefully, or if they don't I can't see them being inclined to send a trainer. You certainly don't have to call out the group in public (it's too bad you can't PM yet) but it would be helpful to know what province you're in if you're willing to disclose that much?

[Charlies_Dad]

I am joining this late but I agree that returning her is your best choice right now. You have a done a lot to try and work things out but it does not sound like it was meant to be. I also agree that I don't think your pup is 'aggressive' but likely more fearful and stressed. Those don't add up to a good relationship for you. Likely your pup will do very well with a family that has another Grey, not sure but that sometimes helps pups who are fearful.

 

I am in Eastern Ontario and I'm not sure where you are located but feel free to contact me at kylewittet@gmail.com if you wish. There are very good adoption groups who would offer you pups that are a lot easier to handle.

[vjgrey]

I wanted to add - my three current hounds are all super, ultra gentle. No space aggression, sleep aggression, resource guarding. No signs of aggression toward people, ever, at all. HOWEVER - If I gave them an extremely high-value treat like a bone and then tried to take it from them, I might very well get a growl. I can take bully sticks out of their mouths, but bones - I don't know. And have never tried. If someone they didn't know poked a plastic hand at them while they ate a high-value treat, they might, not knowing what it is, decide to bite it.

 

With this and with the sitting nonsense, I feel like the people around you keep setting your hound up to fail. Advice from a better group and a better trainer/behaviorist, might do wonders for the situation.

[Guest grey_dreams]

She sounds like a nervous dog who's voice was repeatedly ignored, so she starts to "talk louder" (growling and snapping) in the hope that someone will finally listen, or at least to get the humans to back off and stop doing the things that scare her. You said that she didn't start to act "aggressive" until after one month. That's very telling too. And the fact that she never bit anyone. That most importantly of all. She is not an aggressive dog.

 

One of my dogs sat in a shelter for five year because he was "unadoptable" by most adopters standards. He was actually just very frightened of humans (with good reason). Luckily we found each other. He is the most gentle, loving soul.

[Batmom]

Thanks, Krissy and Kyle, for stopping by and offering help. I PMed Yamaha_gurl 'cause she offered earlier. I don't know where all OP and everybody else is in CA, big country .

 

Hoping OP and doggie will both get the support they need.

 

 

 

 

 

 

FWIW, in times past my family and I have had some not-so-easy dogs, greyhound and other. Right now our situation is different and we have two easy greyhounds -- for the past few years, we have simply not been well set up for any big behavioral projects. I don't think that makes us bad owners, and it doesn't make you one either.

[Guest Amis_Ma]

Here is the letter to the adoption agency from the trainer:

Ami was very eager to meet me at the door and say hi.

I did not have any issues until we told her she could not do something. I
put cheese on their coffee table and we had a leash on her. Absolutely no
corrections (Usually a negative for this breed) When she pulled to get the
cheese and the leash wouldn't allow she turned and repetively lunged and
growled at me. I stood my ground and her body language is telling me she's
a bit too unconfident to confront me head on like that.

Then they told me they could not her to go outside to use the bathroom so
in turn I pulled her down the stairs. Steady pressure and slowly all the
way down until she we got there and then lots of praise. I got the same
reactions from her as above.

They told me Ami was a different dog when her bone was around and so I
asked them to retrieve it. We did exchange exercises with her and they
went well. She would leave the bone for me and happily come for a better
reward.

When we sat to chat for a few minutes Ami brought that bone to her bed.
If any movements went towards her directions the growling and lunging
would be displayed. I pulled her leash high and removed the bone but not
without a fight.

I worked her for 5 minutes to show them how to put a muzzle on her kindly
instead of Ahmee taking it as a negative. They said they couldn't even get
the muzzle on her.

With the muzzle I put a steady pressure on her back end to ask her to sit.
We did not talk and be hard on her. At this point she is lunging much
worse with a full out temper tantrum. I simply waited her out until I got
the sit and then praised her. Even during praise she is baring her teeth.
I did this 4 times and by the end it was much quicker with less of an
attitude from her.

Ahmee's owners are afraid of her and I do not blame them. As a first time
dog owner with a dog lunging at them is very nerve wracking. Ahmee clearly
knows if she displays these types of behaviors she can do whatever she
wants.. Completely unacceptable as they can't get her to even sit or go to
the bathroom outside.

Diane was extremely upset as I told her this is NOT typical behavior at
all for this breed. She clearly has done a large amount of research and I
am confident in her abilities to be a great dog owner. I told them they
had months and months of training and then recommended a class setting as
Ahmee would likely try to be making them a pushover there as well.

As per Ahmee I do not think she is a dog that suits a first time dog
owner. I am not sure how she did in her temperament test but during
training I would say someone will get bitten unless she is muzzled at all
times. When I simply even gently moved her from leaning on me she growls
and bares her teeth. She thinks she owns their home and they are too
afraid to take it back. I can't give my opinion on if there is a
temperament flaw with this girl but I would say something is not right.

I strongly suggest Diane be given an alternate dog from your rescue. She
in my opinion is every rescues dream- but she had a dog in mind she was
seeking not a dog she would be fixing for the next year and then not being
sure of the results. She told me she was looking for a dog she would bring
anywhere at anytime, have around people ect. (Likely your average
greyhound)


Hope this helps, let me know if you have any questions.

To those wondering where in Canada I am located, I'm not comfortable posting this public but if you want to email me I'm willing to share if it makes a difference.


dymcdnl@mta.ca

Edited December 6, 2013 by Amis_Ma