Dominant Greetings, Other Dogs Frightened.

[KickReturn]

These are all good perspectives.

 

I do watch closely and call Hester to me if I suspect a problem confrontation. In the situation with the Viszla I did intervene because the Viszla persisted in trying to play with Hester, jumping toward his face, etc. Hester gave the odd growl but was mostly ignoring the Viszla. I just took the Viszla by the harness and walked him back his owners. He was a very sweet fellow, just a ball of hyped up energy that Hester found annoying.

 

Greetings like the photo are always the result of dogs approaching Hester. He rarely initiates greetings unless it is another Grey. As the other dogs approach Hester stops what he is doing and marches forward with ears up, etc. If the approaching dog turns away Hester relaxes and both dogs sniff each other. After a short meeting Hester sometimes will give off a little growl asking the other dog to move on. If the other dog does not respond Hester will escalate the growling a little and then the other dogs almost always comply. I then interviene if they do not leave him alone.

 

There have been hundreds of meetings like this without any serious outcome. One psycho Warmareiner has on a few occasions stalked Hester, bluffed a friendly greeting, and then jumped in to grab a quick hump. Hester's reactions seem appropriate: growl, bark, maybe a snap during one of these episodes. He always seems measured in his response, very much in control of himself. It is actually kind of funny, this particular Warmareiner is like a doggy pervert.

 

I appreciate the warnings and I will keep watching.

[RedHead]

I'm a little late to this post but am finding it interesting reading as Teague seems to do the same thing. If he is allowed to, he will literally spring at a new dog with his head, ears and tail up, then immediately calms down and then basically ignores them. He is around tons of dogs though and never shows aggression, he actually has very good limits with other dogs. I don't let him off leash with new dogs and he is much better if he is introduced to dogs on leash before being allowed to run, as the intial excitement of the intro is over.

 

We always have off leash dogs run up on hikes, and this is how he normally reacts. Any other dog I would be thinking potential fight, but this has happened so many times and it seems like excitement, as he seems to want to spring and zoom around. I sometimes worry it will trigger a bad response with another dog, but so far it hasn't (as I said, he only stays like this for a few seconds). I was told greyhounds use running more in play, and running at each other is more "normal" for them, but I have no idea.

 

[Guest onceyougogrey]

To understand dominance theory, it is important to know the meaning of this term. Dominance is defined as “the status in a social group, usually acquired as the result of aggression that involves the tendency to take priority in access to limited resources, such as food, mates, or space.” The problem with dominance theory is that this dog training methodology is based on studies of wolves “Canis lupis”, and dogs are not tame wolves. Dogs are their own species “Canis familiarius”, and are more scavengers in nature than predators. In the wild, dogs live solitary lives as opposed to wolves that live in packs. It is also important to note that feral dogs have never reverted to become wolves. Trying to apply the study of wolf behavior to dog behavior is very flawed right from the get go. Read More Here

[NeylasMom]

I'll admit to being a little confused. You posted about this same issue back in August and got a lot of the same advice.

http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/289370-managing-dominance/?hl=kickreturn&do=findComment&comment=5314358

 

I can't see the photo at work so maybe I'm missing something that would explain the reason for this thread.

[NeylasMom]

He rarely initiates greetings unless it is another Grey. As the other dogs approach Hester stops what he is doing and marches forward with ears up, etc. If the approaching dog turns away Hester relaxes and both dogs sniff each other. After a short meeting Hester sometimes will give off a little growl asking the other dog to move on. If the other dog does not respond Hester will escalate the growling a little and then the other dogs almost always comply. I then interviene if they do not leave him alone.

 

There have been hundreds of meetings like this without any serious outcome. One psycho Warmareiner has on a few occasions stalked Hester, bluffed a friendly greeting, and then jumped in to grab a quick hump. Hester's reactions seem appropriate: growl, bark, maybe a snap during one of these episodes. He always seems measured in his response, very much in control of himself. It is actually kind of funny, this particular Warmareiner is like a doggy pervert.

 

I appreciate the warnings and I will keep watching.

I'll just add this. The bolded statement says it all. A dog who enjoys interacting with other dogs will initiate greetings. The fact that he doesn't, coupled with all of the posturing he does when approached by other dogs tells me that he CLEARLY would prefer not meeting them. Yet, despite a lot of advice you've been given and his clear signals you continue to put him in situations where he is exposed repeatedly to these situations. If you prefer not to to acknowledge this and keep him out of those situations then you should work actively on changing his feelings about meeting other dogs. The best way to do this is to pair something high value (typically a very high value food item, think bits of chicken or leftover steak bits) with meeting other dogs. I would start with associating the food with even being near the dogs and work up having him sniff for a second then when you call him away he gets the treat. You will of course need to work on this in situations where the dogs are leashed so you have control over his exposure to the other dogs.

 

I'm not going into a lot of detail here as it's too much to type at the moment, but there have been plenty of threads on how to create this positive association or a book like Emma Parson's Click to Calm might be a good resource, but the key thing to understand is that there are three factors in what might prompt a reaction of some sort:

*distance - how far the dog is from Hester

*duration - how long the interaction is or how long the other dog is around Hester

*intensity - how "exuberant" the other dog is

 

So for example, Hester might tolerate a greeting with a dog who does it quickly and then moves on, but if the dog were to hang around, the dynamic might change. For intensity, the other dog might be more active, jumping around, or more vocal, barking a lot. The example with the viszla is the perfect one for this situation. So when you work on changing his feelings about meeting other dogs, you need to work on only one of these areas at a time. For instance, if the dog is calm and well socialized and you've seen it perform appropriate greetings with other dogs then you might feel comfortable letting them meet momentarily, call him away and reward. But if the dog is bouncy like the viszla was, you might only let Hester get 10 feet away from the dog, feed the whole time you're near, then retreat. You don't ever want to get to the point where Hester is starting to show any signs that he's aroused, posturing, etc. He should realize the dog is there, but be relaxed and able to take the food.

 

There may always be dogs that set him off, but over time he will probably become a lot more tolerant of rude dogs or improper greetings and he may learn to enjoy interacting with other dogs more.

[KickReturn]

I can't see the photo at work so maybe I'm missing something that would explain the reason for this thread.

 

That's why I reposted this topic, I finally had a photo with which to work. And actually there is lot's of new advice and different perspectives.

 

The advice to avoid these situations is not applicable. We will constantly run into other dogs, and if Hester isn't off leash there will certainly be many other dogs that will be and who will have unrestrained access to him.

 

I do like your advice with using food for positive association and I have tried it (only to end up surounded by "hungry" dogs). I will try it again though. Of course no one is snarky then.

 

Perhaps as a first time dog owner I am worrying more then the situation merits and I can accept this as a minor issue in the big picture. After all, he has dozens of greeting every week that are completely uneventful and happy. I just do want him to ever be the bully.

[KickReturn]

UPDATE.

 

Hester has for the first time today backed away from another dog that has challenged him. He pranced over to greet an gentleman on his driveway and the man's very old and cranky German Sheppard mix took exception with lots of barking a growling. Hester made his usual high head, ears up approach as in the photo, and then offered his own light growls. Then he just tuned away and wandered to the next lawn to sniff and mark while the other dog continued to stared him down and growl. I am thrilled by this development.

[brianamac]

Glad you had a success! Sounds like a good step that you and Hester can build off of.

I know what your beaches are like and I understand why you take Hester there to run off leash... Gorgeous and few chances of escape/danger.

I second what NeylasMom talked about anyways. Boo is also 'picky' about what dogs he meets and he has NO patience for high energy dogs (unless it's another greyhound, of course!). We do not risk his 'warnings' turning into a provocation incident with another dog. Therefore, we walk him on leash in the neighbourhood where we will meet other dogs that are (usually) leashed. It is a slow work in progress in which we ignore approaching dogs that are high energy by walking quickly past, and then verbally reward him for not paying attention. When we encounter dogs that look to be 'Boo safe', we let him make a quick (2-3 second) sniff greeting with the dog and then we carry on and treat him. The key to this is that we do not take him to beaches or off-leash parks while leashed. I think this desensitization process is most effective when the dog interactions occur between two leashed dogs. When we encounter an un-leashed dog on walks, as is inevitable sometimes, we simply give a wide berth and ignore. He is becoming increasingly patient with other dogs, even rude ones.

As for running off leash--which Boo loves to do of course, as it appears Hester does too--we take him to areas at times we know he will not likely run into other dogs. If another dog arrives, we leash him back up and carry on.

As first time greyhound owners, until we can work through his dog 'issues' (or at least gain a reliable understanding of how he will react), we feel off-leash interactions with other dogs are irresponsible on our part. While potentially negative interactions aren't frequent, we know the possibility is there and will avoid it until we feel fully comfortable with Boo's dog to dog interactions.

It's working for us and may be worth a try with Hester, even though it will disrupt the current exercise/socialization routine you guys are on.

[KickReturn]

Brianamac that’s excellent info but I am not sure it applies. Perhaps I have not described the situation well enough. Hester is often happy to meet other dogs. He just is usually not the initiator, and when a greeting does occur he seems to demand it be on his terms – him standing proud and the other dog performing a careful, more indirect approach. My only real concern was, having never seen him back down from a dog that didn’t show initial deference, what would happen if he met a dog just like himself? That’s why it was such a pleasure to see him let another dog dictate the terms of a meeting the other day. Maybe he has a lot more social savvy than I have been giving him credit for. Perhaps his grumbles toward dogs that were too hyper, or too direct were necessary and helpful. Just knowing that he is not pathologically compelled to be bossy is a relief. And I can’t lose sight of the fact that Hester has had countless greetings with other dogs that were nothing but happy. What is interesting is that if Hester has a greeting with a dog that does involve some grumbling, subsequent greetings with the same dog are uneventful.

 

As for trying to isolate Hester from potential problems, it would be nearly impossible. The area we live in has a huge dog population - everybody has dogs. We are out together as much as 4 hours per day and run into significant numbers of dogs, many of whom are off leash and free to approach Hester. The fact Hester is mostly off leash seems to be helpful in this regard as he is able to manage the greetings or avoid the other dogs as he sees fit. The most serious disagreements with other dogs including one serious attack have all occurred while Hester was leashed. Of course there is always a risk when you are not attached to your dog, but being attached doesn’t seem ideal in this situation either.

[brianamac]

Hmmm, I still think it could apply, it would just involve a change from the current routine.

You've asked for advice on this a couple of times, sooo... as they say-- keep doing the same thing, continue getting the same result.

[spottydog]

Go Hester!

[NeylasMom]

Brianamac that’s excellent info but I am not sure it applies. Perhaps I have not described the situation well enough.

I think you've described it quite well, you just seem interested in only hearing feedback that supports your own theories.

 

Hmmm, I still think it could apply, it would just involve a change from the current routine.

You've asked for advice on this a couple of times, sooo... as they say-- keep doing the same thing, continue getting the same result.

 

While I take it as a good sign that Hester backed down in this situation, it doesn't guarantee you will have the same result in the future. While dogs will generally do what they can to avoid real confrontation (and removing the elements of a leash and human interference, assuming the other dog's owner doesn't do something stupid, lessens the chances of situations like this escalating) I fear that someday you will cross paths with a dog who isn't tolerant of Hester's posturing and lacks the social skills to tell him politely to back off. Or the dog may have the social skills but the owner will be lacking in dog knowledge and will do something that causes the situation to go the wrong way. It only takes a small thing at just the wrong time on the human's part to turn a tense situation that could have been diffused into an attack. Unfortunately I learned that one the hard way. Maybe I'm worrying unnecessarily, but I wouldn't want you to find out the hard way as well, or rather, I wouldn't want Hester to be a part of an actual dog fight or attack.

 

But I think I'm wasting my "breath" here.

[a_daerr]

I think you've described it quite well, you just seem interested in only hearing feedback that supports your own theories.

 

I really agree with NeylasMom and brianamac here. It seems like OP is looking for some magical solution?

There's no real way to do ANY type of training unless you put a leash on your dog and teach him how to greet other dogs appropriately. Simple as that.

[KickReturn]

But I think I'm wasting my "breath" here.

 

No one's wasting their breath. I appreciate all the input and it all helps me build my knowledge - the advice gives me another tool to aid in my care of my dog. I have no objection to leashing Hester and getting him to focus on me with treats. I've used this technique to all but eliminate his interest in the rabbits that seem to blast across the path 10 feet in front of us on every walk.

 

The fact remains that this is a dog with countless successful greetings. I was only concerned about the rare greetings where the other dog challenges him. And even those greetings had never escalated to anything other than an exchange of growls, with the dogs always disengaging without incident. It was just that I had never seen Hester back down, it was always the other dog that backed down first until the other day. Brianamac's Boo sounds like he is somewhat less tolerant then Hester. Hester after all will allow puppies to play in between his legs and even jump at his face a bit. Other high energy dogs that follow and jump at Hester usually just receive a quick, sharp growl from Hester, often without him even breaking stride or looking at the other dog.

 

The good weather has brought out a lot of other dogs and just over the last two days Hester has met at least a dozen new ones, two of which were a bit leash reactive. What I discovered was that if I simply call his name just as the greeting begins and maybe once or twice during, Hester is much less "proud" in his approach. For both of the leash reactive dogs the greetings were fine and when the dogs expressed their desire for some space, Hester was a gentleman about it and simply moved on (although he did offer a half-hearted growl to one of them as he departed).

 

He also had the experience of being rushed by 6 or 7 off leash small dogs. It was an assortment of Poodles, West Highlands, a Maltese, etc. - a real mixed bag. A soon as they saw him they went nuts barking and growling. He has always been gentle with small dogs but this situation was completely over the top. Again, I called his name and he was oh so polite. He even had to high step a bit as they ran about his feet and he did give a little growl to the Maltese that was out of control. In a matter of seconds everyone was sniffing noses and taking turns marking various trees and bushes. The lady owner of this pack was quite stunned by his calm demeanor in the face of such mayhem.

 

Perhaps it was my mistake to assume that just because I hadn't seen it, that Hester wasn't capable of de-escalating a situation.

 

Thanks everyone for your input. If I get a chance I'll put together a photo sequence of a greeting with me calling his name. It will be interesting to compare the body language with the photo at the beginning of this thread.

Edited April 24, 2013 by KickReturn

[KickReturn]

I completely agree with Giselle's response. These types of interactions aren't about dominance, except as interpreted from a human perspective.

...

The whole concept of dominance comes from human social structures, was incorrectly applied to wolf behavior, then extrapolated to dog behavior. When we actually observe dog interactions and body language without the bias of assuming a hierarchy exists, we often find that there isn't one and there are other explanations for the behaviors we see. If you have the patience to get through some pretty technical writing, Alexandra Semyonova's website and paper offer a very interesting alternate view of dog social behavior.

 

 

 

Pretty hard to reconcile the above and other similar often repeated sentiments with this from Dennis McKeon as posted in another thread by dmdsmoxie:

 

"One of the most educational aspects of working with large populations or colonies of Greyhounds in racing, is to watch how the pack interacts, and to observe the dynamics of it. Greyhounds have always been pack animals. Not just historically, but in actuality. They have hunted and coursed in packs, and today they race in packs. They are kept with their dams much longer than most, if not all breeds, and they begin their socialization training within their own family units. Within that unit, a pecking order develops. There is usually always a dominant individual, or an “alpha”, and depending upon the size and nature of the litter, there might be both an alpha male and female. Often, they are the play leaders. The others are submissive to them, and to one another, and so-on, down the “chain of command”. The alphas are not always the best athletes or the fastest in the litter, but they do often command a certain degree of supplication.

 

More educational, is when these small packs are introduced to the larger pack of the kennel, either at the track, or on the breeder’s facility. It is simply fascinating to see how they integrate themselves within the pack dynamic and the established hierarchy. Sometimes it can mean trouble, when introducing future colony alphas to current colony alphas, or to one another."

 

 

I think after weighing the evidence and reading some of the academic literature I will go with Denis's take on the situation. Not only is it born from unsurpassed practical experience with the breed, it seems to explain my dogs behaviour better then other theories. And Denis makes it very clear that I need to watch out for the other alphas just as I suspected, as that is where the problems arise. Hester is what he is by his genetics. I will not train him to be something else. Rather I will manage his environment to keep him safe and happy. FWIW he is doing extremely well with his greetings. Reminding him of my presence during greetings has really helped.

 

And this photo?:

 

It's a photo of one serious alpha Greyhound.

[JJNg]

Anyone can choose to believe what they want, but none of us really knows who's right unless we can somehow find out what the dogs are truly thinking. But if you close your mind to the possibility of other interpretations, dominance theory is all you'll ever see. Did you read Semyonova's paper? Do you feel her theory is not a reasonable possibility?

I've seen a number of insecure, but highly aroused dogs showing the exact same body language that Hester is showing in that photo. As Giselle already explained, to describe a dog's personality as dominant or alpha isn't even correct in any scientific or ethological sense. That is a concept that has been created through popular opinion and incorrect application of the original scientific principle of dominance.

[christinepi]

I'm not trying to be contrary, but I find it really interesting how human minds work. With that in mind, what about the possibility that Dennis was interpreting things through his (dominance theory influenced) lens? Maybe Giselle and others would have seen something very different at play?

 

Apart from that, put simply: Either dominance theory is a wrong concept, or it's right, and then it would apply to all dog breeds, and not just one.

 

To me, the number one thing that drives me up the wall about dominance theory is when the dog is the one who suffers for it, because his behavior is being misinterpreted, he gets punished, the dog doesn't get the help he needs and next thing he knows he gets dumped at the pound.

[KickReturn]

Anyone can choose to believe what they want, but none of us really knows who's right unless we can somehow find out what the dogs are truly thinking. But if you close your mind to the possibility of other interpretations, dominance theory is all you'll ever see. Did you read Semyonova's paper? Do you feel her theory is not a reasonable possibility?

 

I've seen a number of insecure, but highly aroused dogs showing the exact same body language that Hester is showing in that photo.

 

 

I read the paper - a totally reasonable possibility. Just doesn't seem to explain some of what we are experiencing with Hester.

 

And Hester is a real rock solid dog. Nothing insecure about him - not around people, dogs, things, horses, etc. No sucking up, no out of the blue agression, over-reactions, startles, barking - nothing.

Edited May 13, 2013 by KickReturn

[a_daerr]

I've seen a number of insecure, but highly aroused dogs showing the exact same body language that Hester is showing in that photo.

 

Yep, here's one. And Truman is the farthest thing from an "alpha dog" if such a thing exists.

He's an insecure adolescent who over-compensates for everything.

 

[KickReturn]

 

Apart from that, put simply: Either dominance theory is a wrong concept, or it's right, and then it would apply to all dog breeds, and not just one.

 

To me, the number one thing that drives me up the wall about dominance theory is when the dog is the one who suffers for it, because his behavior is being misinterpreted, he gets punished, the dog doesn't get the help he needs and next thing he knows he gets dumped at the pound.

 

I believe it is entirely possible that pack social hierarchy may exist in some breeds and not in others. Why does it have to apply to all dog breeds or none? Greyhound genetics and upbringing may set them apart. It is even possible that some Greyhounds exhibit a tendency to social hierarchy while others may not. Nothing impossible about that.

 

As for dogs ending up at the pound, well it doesn't matter what theory an idiot subscibes to, they will still be an idiot. Remember I am not interested in asserting my dominance over my dog. I am trying to make sure I am well equipped to understand and perhaps manage his attempts at dominance over other dogs. Hey, maybe he is not trying to be dominant. Perhaps it is every dog he meets just trying to be submissive .

 

Today was amazing. He met at least 30 different dogs today of every imaginable type. He was proud and serious but very polite. He only warned off those dogs that lacked the right manners. The warnings were quick and gentle and the other dogs responded immediately. I filmed a few of the greetings. If I get a chance I will link to footage tomorrow.

[KickReturn]

 

Yep, here's one. And Truman is the farthest thing from an "alpha dog" if such a thing exists.

He's an insecure adolescent who over-compensates for everything.

 

 

FWIW in the photo below, although the postures are similar, I see somewhat different body language from Hester. Alltogether more rigid and "serious". Truman looks to be in motion, happy, and ready to play: (BTW Truman is an absolutely spectacular hound.)

Edited May 13, 2013 by KickReturn

[christinepi]

 

I believe it is entirely possible that pack social hierarchy may exist in some breeds and not in others. Why does it have to apply to all dog breeds or none? Greyhound genetics and upbringing may set them apart. It is even possible that some Greyhounds exhibit a tendency to social hierarchy while others may not. Nothing impossible about that.

 

As for dogs ending up at the pound, well it doesn't matter what theory an idiot subscibes to, they will still be an idiot. Remember I am not interested in asserting my dominance over my dog. I am trying to make sure I am well equipped to understand and perhaps manage his attempts at dominance over other dogs. Hey, maybe he is not trying to be dominant. Perhaps it is every dog he meets just trying to be submissive .

 

Today was amazing. He met at least 30 different dogs today of every imaginable type. He was proud and serious but very polite. He only warned off those dogs that lacked the right manners. The warnings were quick and gentle and the other dogs responded immediately. I filmed a few of the greetings. If I get a chance I will link to footage tomorrow.

 

 

 

I believe it is entirely possible that pack social hierarchy may exist in some breeds and not in others. Why does it have to apply to all dog breeds or none? Greyhound genetics and upbringing may set them apart. It is even possible that some Greyhounds exhibit a tendency to social hierarchy while others may not. Nothing impossible about that.

 

As for dogs ending up at the pound, well it doesn't matter what theory an idiot subscibes to, they will still be an idiot. Remember I am not interested in asserting my dominance over my dog. I am trying to make sure I am well equipped to understand and perhaps manage his attempts at dominance over other dogs. Hey, maybe he is not trying to be dominant. Perhaps it is every dog he meets just trying to be submissive .

 

Today was amazing. He met at least 30 different dogs today of every imaginable type. He was proud and serious but very polite. He only warned off those dogs that lacked the right manners. The warnings were quick and gentle and the other dogs responded immediately. I filmed a few of the greetings. If I get a chance I will link to footage tomorrow.

 

Just to be sure, I didn't mean to imply YOUR dog would ever end up at the pound or that you're trying to assert dominance. My post was only in response to the comment on Dennis, and adding my pet peeve was meant as a general statement.

 

It would be wonderful if the 'idiotic percentage' of the dog owning world came to understand that there are alternatives to the dominance approach.

 

Lastly, unless somebody did some actual research on greyhound social hierarchy (and maybe someone has, and I will be proven wrong, and that's fine), I'll stay in the 'greyhounds are just another dog' camp, as far as something as deep running as hierarchy behavior--or the lack of it--goes. Does anyone know of any research on this?

[KickReturn]

 

Just to be sure, I didn't mean to imply YOUR dog would ever end up at the pound or that you're trying to assert dominance. My post was only in response to the comment on Dennis, and adding my pet peeve was meant as a general statement.

 

 

Not for a minute did I misunderstand you. And I share your concerns about ignorant and misguided owners.

[KickReturn]

Lastly, unless somebody did some actual research on greyhound social hierarchy (and maybe someone has, and I will be proven wrong, and that's fine), I'll stay in the 'greyhounds are just another dog' camp, as far as something as deep running as hierarchy behavior--or the lack of it--goes. Does anyone know of any research on this?

 

That would be great. And that is but one problem with the Semenova paper as far as we are concerned - that it has nothing to do with the upbringing and life of the racing Greyhound. As for the sample size in her study...5 dogs?? that belong to her?? in her house?? Not to mention the paper reads more like a political treatise than proper academic work. And to top it off what ever quality findings exist in the paper are at times badly clouded by some of the most cumbersome academic writing I have encountered. And at other times the paper reads like a dog sitter talking about what her pack and the dogs she was sitting for that day did at the park - rather unprofessional. The overall methodology just wouldn't cut it in most academic fields. A bit of a shame really, probably prevents what may be a very good perspective for many dog owners from ever making it to the mainstream.

Edited May 13, 2013 by KickReturn

[KickReturn]

Here is a video of Hester's improved greeting technique. He still comes in very proud, ears erect, tail quite high, but he seems less concerned about being in control. This is fairly typical - represents perhaps 95 percent of all interactions. The others include a big bounding hello with a gallop past the other dog and the odd one is of the more assertive "get out of my face" type.

 

Sorry for the shaky video - I watch the dogs when I do this and not the camera. Hopefully I can capture the more assertive type of greeting. That should be more interesting.

 

Edited May 13, 2013 by KickReturn