Dominant Greetings, Other Dogs Frightened.

[JJNg]

When it comes to social interactions, I really don't think greyhounds are inherently any different from dogs in general. If anything, racing greyhounds are raised in ways that allow them to learn and develop more natural canine body language and social skills than most puppies that are raised in human homes and taken away from their mom and littermates at 2-3 months old.

I know the Semyonova paper is rather difficult reading, and most people I've suggested it to haven't gotten through it. I'm impressed you read it. I wish she'd done a better job writing it up, but the sample size is far greater than 5 dogs. The abstract mentions 5 'home dogs', but if you read the Methodology section, she describes 8 dogs that lived in her household. And in addition to interactions among her own dogs, she observed their interactions with numerous human and canine visitors to her home, as well as with strange dogs they came across at outings to city parks. I got the impression she pet-sat, as she mentions taking all 'home dogs' as well as visitor dogs along on their park trips. Semyonova also tested her theory by interacting with 53 fearful or aggressive dogs at a shelter.

I don't see anything majorly wrong with her methodology as ethological research is often carried out as observational studies. Studying behavior in a 'natural' setting is more accurate than artificial controlled experiments. It would have been better if she had included more numeric and objective compilations and analyses of the data, rather than just providing a narrative of observed behaviors and examples. Although, if you're comparing to the experience of a racing greyhound trainer like Dennis McKeon, the observations and conclusions drawn are not any more scientific.

Regarding the video, what have you done differently, or what has changed, to improve his greeting technique?

Watching the video, I don't get the impression that Hester is proud or confident, or that he's trying to control the situation. His body language seems to indicate some tension and insecurity. His ears are tense and, while erect, are pulled slightly back, and his tail is raised and wagging stiffly, during the entire time he's interacting with other dogs. It's only after the greetings are over, and he moves on that he relaxes. A truly confident dog who is sure of himself and comfortable with the interaction would not be showing those signs of tension. Just my observations based on that 1 short clip, maybe others will see it differently.

 

ETA: Just wanted to clarify that I don't think Hester has any significant issues with insecurity, just that his body language seems to indicate some mild insecurity with direct interactions with other dogs. Based on your other descriptions, it sounds like he is quite skilled at canine communication and is able to appropriately handle the situations when he's unsure or uncomfortable with the interaction. All completely normal dog behavior, and actually, consistent with Semonyona's theory that normal dogs are not aggressive and will find ways to avoid actual conflict through body language and signaling.

The fact that he shows "no sucking up, no out of the blue agression, over-reactions, startles, barking" doesn't mean he's completely secure and "rock solid". Those more extreme reactive displays are shown when dogs are very stressed and well past the point of mild insecurity and polite communication.

Edited May 14, 2013 by JJNg

[KickReturn]

JJNg, I did get the full picture of the sample in the Semenova study/paper. Yes 5 dogs of her own, 3 visitors and lots of encounters on the street, etc. And dogs in a shelter cannot be expected to be a useful model for our settled pets. The whole thing is just very uncontrolled as is the environment - to the extent that it undermines findings. Even her presence badly polutes any data. And yes Mckeon's observations are purely seat of the pants with no academic rigor but he is observing a much more natural pack setting. This may have some value if we are wondering about whether a social hierarchy can exist among dogs. But again I wouldn't bet my life on Mckeon's views either. (I do admit to romanticising the view of the "oldtimer".)

 

Ultimately, as one who has read far too many academic papers, I would have great reservations about drawing any firm conclusions from the Semenova paper. That is not to say it is without some very interesting observations. One that caught my attention is that not all dogs use the same body language to signal a particular emotion/response. Rather dogs are able to learn the each others pecularities. Explains why first greetings are likely the most difficult. Perhaps the biggest problem with the paper is that it gives the strong impression of someone who was very upset with owner's forcing their dogs to submit to them (a' la Cesar Milan), or otherwise being abusive and believing they were doing the proper thing, and set out to find evidence that would argue against this. The paper exudes overwhelming bias - not cool in academic circles. (But is is great that she is working as an animal welfare inspector.)

 

As for Hester, what I have done is simply let him know I am there. I just repeat his name a time or two just before encounters and he is more relaxed (in the past I waited until encounters has begun before I intervened). Since he bonded to me (crazy over the top), he has been extremely responsive to any movement or sound I make. I don't even have to use his name. If I just grunt or give some little sound with the appropriate tone he seems to get what I want from him. Even a wave of the hand or a toss of my head often works. He is extremely compliant and sensible. He has never heard the word no from us. As a bonus, he is also toning it down with the dogs that deserve a serious telling off. He will still snarl but he won't face them down and scare the crap out them as he did in the past. I am being careful not to intervene too much as he seems to know better than I what behaviour is best in any situation.

 

I will post more videos when I get a chance. There seem to be so many different types of encounters. I really want to capture his reaction to a dog that won't look away from him. That's where you experienced owners will be able to determine if he is over-reacting. (Or I am over-reacting lol.)

[a_daerr]

 

As for Hester, what I have done is simply let him know I am there. I just repeat his name a time or two just before encounters and he is more relaxed (in the past I waited until encounters has begun before I intervened). Since he bonded to me (crazy over the top), he has been extremely responsive to any movement or sound I make. I don't even have to use his name. If I just grunt or give some little sound with the appropriate tone he seems to get what I want from him. Even a wave of the hand or a toss of my head often works.

 

Just my two cents, but have you ever considered the possibility that Hester is trying to resource guard you?

 

My dogs are very well-trained to listen to my voice and commands, but in an off-leash setting with other dogs, their focus is not always on me. Because Hester is so hyper-focused on where you are, what you're doing, what sounds you make, your body language, etc., could it be a possibility that YOUR presence is the very thing affecting his interactions with other dogs? Consider that possibility for just a minute. Dogs who resource guard are not trying to overthrow the social ladder. In fact, resource guarders are most often the dogs who exhibit tension, anxiety, and a sense of paranoia over losing the object that they've deemed so valuable. Anytime you intervened in the past, you have given him the attention he wants and reinforced the idea that you "need" guarding. I would be curious to see what happened if you removed yourself from the situation altogether.

[KickReturn]

 

Just my two cents, but have you ever considered the possibility that Hester is trying to resource guard you?

 

My dogs are very well-trained to listen to my voice and commands, but in an off-leash setting with other dogs, their focus is not always on me. Because Hester is so hyper-focused on where you are, what you're doing, what sounds you make, your body language, etc., could it be a possibility that YOUR presence is the very thing affecting his interactions with other dogs? Consider that possibility for just a minute. Dogs who resource guard are not trying to overthrow the social ladder. In fact, resource guarders are most often the dogs who exhibit tension, anxiety, and a sense of paranoia over losing the object that they've deemed so valuable. Anytime you intervened in the past, you have given him the attention he wants and reinforced the idea that you "need" guarding. I would be curious to see what happened if you removed yourself from the situation altogether.

 

That is a very interesting idea. He does check on my location every minute or so. But on-the-other-hand he doesn't seem to care if I greet other dogs.We also have Greyhound sleepovers regularely and his girlfriend sleeps on the bed with me (only dog in the world allowed on my bed) while Hester wouldn't even think of it and seems unbothered by it. Sometimes the visiting dogs will crawl into my lap and Hester doesn't seem to care.

 

Also he is apparently worse when I am not around. On the occasions where other members of the family he is apparently a bit rougher during greetings. I say occasions because he mostly refuses to walk with others (a problem to be discussed in another thread).

Edited May 15, 2013 by KickReturn

[KickReturn]

double post

Edited May 15, 2013 by KickReturn

[a_daerr]

Resource guarding can be mystery because the dog only reacts to what HE considers a "perceived threat." So it's possible he may be comfortable with you greeting some dogs and not others. Given the fact that he falls apart when you're not around, I'm thinking his dependence on you could be a contributing factor.

[KickReturn]

Well, he doesn't "fall apart", apparently just a bit more stern with other dogs.

 

I think there is so much more to his greeting complexities. And I still don't think he is insecure. There have been way to many situations that would have that would have caused an insecure dog to react, but where he has barely shown any reaction. Today was a classic example. A Husky cross started barking as soon as it saw him, ran over to say hello to me and Hester - the whole time barking its head off. Hester walked over to the Husky sniffed it, walked over to the owner to say hello, back to the Husky for some more sniffing, peed, and than on his merry way. The Husky spent the whole time alternating between barking and stuffing his nose in Hester's business. No growl from Hester, no ears up, or stiff posture. This type reaction is every bit as common as the other types. Would love to know what that boy is thinking.

 

I wonder if what I am calling the "proud" approach that he uses is actually his way of expressing excitement and happiness about greeting other dogs. Perhaps it is a bit unusual and this may be what throws off some other dogs. Interestingly he uses the same body language when he approaches people he is happy to see and when he is inviting dogs that he knows to play (which really means you run and I'll chase you). The alert, poised posture also makes sense from a survival perspective - he is "ready" if things go badly. Not a surprising genetic trait.

 

I am also gianing some insight into his warnings to other dogs. I have noticed by watching some of the greetings that I have recorded in slow motion, that when he greets he gives a quick deflection of his head away from the other dog. Then he quickly checks back to see if the other dog does the same. If the other dog does not look away or continues to follow him with its muzzle pointed at his head, he will then give a little warning grumble or at worst confront the dog and demand that it back off. Fortunately the latter occurance is becoming quite rare.

Edited May 16, 2013 by KickReturn

[NeylasMom]

I've seen a number of insecure, but highly aroused dogs showing the exact same body language that Hester is showing in that photo.

I was about to say that I don't see anything in that photo indicating a "dominant" dog, but that it looks exactly like Violet looks 9/10 when she's meeting a dog for the first time. And I couldn't have chosen better words than Jen's to describe Violet when it comes to meeting dogs: insecure, but highly aroused.

 

Depending on the dog, the resolution is she either wanders off on her own and ignores the dog the rest of the time (this occurs with dogs that are just too "scary" for her, as in, very unusual as to not register as dogs in her little greyhound mind like the 2 furry white alien beasts we encounter sometimes, aka. the samoyeds) or she engages in full on running and/or playing like any other dog.

[JJNg]

And dogs in a shelter cannot be expected to be a useful model for our settled pets. The whole thing is just very uncontrolled as is the environment - to the extent that it undermines findings. .....

 

Ultimately, as one who has read far too many academic papers, I would have great reservations about drawing any firm conclusions from the Semenova paper.

I'm not suggesting that anyone draw any firm conclusions from Semyonova's paper. Just brought it up as an alternate perspective of canine social interactions, which to me, makes a lot of sense and explains many of the interactions I've observed between dogs. The whole idea of a dominance hierarchy in dogs isn't any more scientifically based, and as far as I know, there haven't been any controlled studies to support that theory either.

 

Also wanted to point out that the shelter portion of Semyonova's paper was conducted as an informal 'test' of her theory. I would disagree that using fearful and aggressive dogs in a shelter isn't a "useful model for our settled pets". While the degree may be different, the majority of 'aggressive' behavior seen in our pets is based in fear and insecurity (such as the many cases of newly adopted greyhounds we hear about who growl and snap when approached on their bed or when they have a toy). The dogs in a shelter may show a more exaggerated form of this behavior, but learning to interact with them and read and understand their body language can help us deal with behavior problems at home, as well as read canine body language in greeting situations. Canine body language and signals are essentially the same, regardless of whether it's a fearful shelter dog or a settled house pet.

 

I wonder if what I am calling the "proud" approach that he uses is actually his way of expressing excitement and happiness about greeting other dogs.

Definitely possible. I was just basing my impression of mild insecurity on the body language he's showing in that one video you posted, which you said was typical and representative of most interactions. In addition to seeming slightly insecure, he does seem to be excited and interested in the other dogs. I used to have a dog (Italian greyhound) who was very insecure around unfamiliar dogs, but he was also very curious and interested in checking them out. He would greet other dogs with body language pretty similar to what Hester showed in that video, just with the insecure signals a bit more obvious.

 

Here are a couple examples (white dog). Keep in mind that this is a dog who was very insecure and undersocialized toward other dogs, so there isn't a bit of 'dominance' in his behavior. I interpreted his body language as insecure and unsure, but also curious and aroused.

 

 

 

I am also gianing some insight into his warnings to other dogs. I have noticed by watching some of the greetings that I have recorded in slow motion, that when he greets he gives a quick deflection of his head away from the other dog. Then he quickly checks back to see if the other dog does the same. If the other dog does not look away or continues to follow him with its muzzle pointed at his head, he will then give a little warning grumble or at worst confront the dog and demand that it back off. Fortunately the latter occurance is becoming quite rare.

What you describe is a fairly typical use of calming signals, which dogs often use when they are slightly uncomfortable with an interaction. It sounds like Hester is using a calming signal (the head turn away), and if the othe dog doesn't return that calming signal, he escalates to a stronger expression (the grumble or more obvious confrontational behavior) of his discomfort or dislike of the interaction. I'm actually wondering if the decrease in the frequency of his more confrontational interactions is a result of him becoming more comfortable interacting with unknown dogs as he gains more experience. Looking forward to seeing more video.

Edited May 20, 2013 by JJNg

[KickReturn]

 

I was just basing my impression of mild insecurity on the body language he's showing in that one video you posted, which you said was typical and representative of most interactions.

 

Hester's most typical interaction is none at all - he just cruises past other dogs with hardly a glance. But for my liking, indeed he is too assertive too often when he does interact with other dogs. He is also a bit on the fun police side when it comes to running/playing with other dogs. I assume it all fits together somehow.

 

Regarding the insecurity, maybe a certain level insecurity is what drives the "dominance" behaviours. Maybe it is not possble to rise to dominance without the appropriate insecurity as a motivator. The need to make sure that other dogs are "OK", not a threat, etc.

 

The last few days Hester has had dozens of greetings with every sort of dog. The variety of his reactions is vast. There are definitely a few main types but with so many variations. We spent the last few days with his girlfriend so I could not shoot video of greetings. It was fascinating to see the contrast to this other Greyhound. She always did the same thing, very sweet, ears down, playful, trying to make "friends". He was mostly any angel but when he did give warnings right off, he was dead on - each of the dogs that he took exception to became obnoxious as they began to play with his girlfriend. In one case she had to really show some teeth to get rid of a Lab that was determined to wrestle with her after what had started as a balanced game of tag. Of course I called Hester out of any interactions that started with warnings and had him stand beside me while his girlfiend took over. But now I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to let him manage the situation.