Dominant Greetings, Other Dogs Frightened.

[KickReturn]

The photo below says it all. When Hester does greet another dog (he completely ignores most) he assumes a very upright, chest out, ears up posture. Most dogs while very eager to interact with him are often frightened into submission. Dogs that do not submit (maybe one in 20 or 30) will be greeted with rather scary growling and some deep woofs. Can I alter this behaviour with training?

 

In the photo the Vishla was a bit too face on and energetic in his approach and Hester has already given a gentle warning growl. The Vishla is starting to submit and eventually turns his head away and lowers himself to a crawl. After this the usual bum sniffing took place. Then the Vishla wanted to play but Hester would have none of this.

 

This is my magnificent fellow's one great character flaw and I wish I could get him to relax and not take these situations so seriously. It simply is not fair to other dogs that just want to play.

 

 

 

 

 

[JAJ2010]

How long have you had him? Rainy used to greet others in sort of the same way. Posturing and growling at rude behavior. At first I freaked out thinking she was being aggressive. Then brain cells kicked in and I realized she was only having an issue with the energetic rude dogs. Over the years she's gotten quite tolerant of rude dogs. Her social butterfly urge had overtaken the manners police. Or maybe she's just settled into trusting that Mom can take care of all that other stuff while she relaxes?

 

From the picture it looks like he is very alpha. If he only has this issue with the rude dogs, I'm not sure what you can do to help him. He may relax with time? But the rude dogs should be corrected ;-) although the dog in your pic looks very very polite and dog language savvy. You rarely find that around here!

[kamsmom]

I really don't have any advice as I actually don't think he is doing anything wrong. I kinda think he is doing a good job correcting the Visla.

 

But I am laughing at the photo, I love that you have two off leash dogs in front of a "no dogs allowed" sign

[Hawthorn]

I don't really see what the problem is. Hester doesn't have to like other dogs or want to play with them, and he's perfectly entitled to let them know this, especially if they are being a bit too energetic (ie rude) in their approach like the vizsla. The vizsla needs to learn some manners and it sounds as if Hester gave it a good lesson. It's not as if Hester's being aggressive in any way. Maybe he'll mellow a bit with time or maybe he won't, but I certainly wouldn't consider it a "major character flaw" - that is unfair to Hester in my view. Hester seems like a very well-adjusted dog to me. The only possible issue I can see is that other owners might erroneously consider Hester's behaviour (the growling) to be aggressive. Or are you worried that one day a dog won't back down and there'll be a fight?

[krissy]

I totally understand. Summit is the exact same. He comes in with this sort of posture and if the other dog is accepting of his "top dog" position everything is good. If the other dog comes in with the same body language there's usually a lot of snarling, posturing, and air snapping. While it is not exactly "bad dog behaviour" it earns lots of stink eye from other owners, so I understand where you're at with stopping it. For us the only thing I can do is watch the body language of other dogs. If they are showing submissive body language I let Summit say hello. If I see ears up, tail up and stiff, stiff legged gait, and a very direct stare then I call Summit off and back to me if he is off leash. If he is on leash I ask for "watch me" and cross the road, turn around, etc.

 

If I see a husky I get Summit's attention and get out of there riteawayquik!

 

[claudiav]

My Leyla is Alpha Dog and she does not tolerate puppy energy at all! It's sad cause i would like to pet the puppies, but it gets ugly me trying to pet them and hold her back... she's quite nasty about it... She only does it with other breeds, though... she hasn't met a greyhound she didn't like... so the way ii deal with it is to keep her away from other breeds as most of them have that puppy energy... old seniors are the exception... she doesn't mind them...

[KickReturn]

How long have you had him?

 

From the picture it looks like he is very alpha. If he only has this issue with the rude dogs, I'm not sure what you can do to help him. He may relax with time?

 

Hester has been with us for 18 months. He is 7 years old and this is him. Yes we are coming to realize he is very "alpha". It is the puppy type wiggly energy that brings the negative reaction, as well as dogs that he ignores but who persist in investigating him. Also any other dog that assumes an upright or confrontational posture is an issue. And he has never backed down - not ever! This frightens me. Fortunately he has won all these "stand-offs" thus far. Interestingly for small yappy dogs he either just runs by them or is very sweet and gentle I guess because he does not view them as a challenge. He will even allow very young puppies to run underneath him and play between his legs.

 

I wish I could reduce his obsession with social order and decorum.

[Sambuca]

Bu uses the same posture when greeting dogs. He is definitely alpha. He only growls is a dog is literally in his face and doesn't understand the more subtle signals he gives. He starts with turning away, then walking away, then lifting his lip, then a low growl, then a full on growl, then if the dog still isn't paying attention, Bu takes the dog down. He is completely appropriate and has never hurt a dog. Honestly though, even when hes ignoring dogs, they often come over to him and completely submit.

I would try training with your guy. Maybe you can get to the point that when you see a problem in the making, you can call him to you and walk he will walk away from the situation.

[philospher77]

Here's the problem as I see it: Hester looks to be a very dominant dog. And, dominant dogs generally do not "play" with other dogs. Keep in mind that dog packs follow family structure (essentially), and mom and dad aren't generally the ones the kids play with, since they are too busy keeping the family fed and safe. The playmates are the siblings, aunts, and uncles. Very young puppies have a "puppy license" that keeps the adults from reacting as much to them, much the same way we make excuses for infants who cry in restaurants, while we don't for their older siblings.

 

So, Hester is showing perfectly acceptable dominant dog behavior. He will probably never be a dog that "plays" much with other dogs, because dominant dogs just don't do that. If you are looking to increase his chances to play, about the best thing you can do is find a small, set group of dogs that he can interact with. Once they have a pseudo-pack set up, he will be able to relax some since everyone will know their position in the pack, and thus he will be able to play more. But he still probably will not be as playful as you want him to be. The really playful dogs are the omegas, as they try and defuse tension around them, and are often left behind to babysit.

 

Do be aware that, as the owner of a dominant dog, it is up to you to watch his interactions with other dogs, because, as you say, dominant dogs will not back down from a challenge. So the responsibility for preventing the challenges from occurring falls to you. Learn to read other dog's body language, and to intervene when you see another dominant dog. That part is going to take management, because in the wild it would be settled by having each dog establish their own territory, so that they can avoid each other. As humans, we force the interaction that they are trying to avoid.

 

I do wonder what he would do with my little rattie, because she tends to approach many dogs with the same attitude: Ears up, chest out, little docked tail straight up and quivering. Of course, she's all of 10 pounds, so most dogs just look a bit bewildered at this, but I do try and get her into a calmer frame of mind before allowing her to interact with them briefly.

[christinepi]

I don't believe in the "alpha" theory. A truly confident dog, just like a truly confident wolf, has no need to posture and get all puffy. They know who they are, and one good stare while sitting on their bum is all they need to do to get the other critter back in line, if that's what they think is necessary. My grey is the same puffy way, and I've come to realize that a) in many situations he's just responding to rude manners in the other dogs or he's often plain old insecure and anxious and figures a good offense is the best defense. He's just bluffing in order to keep other dogs away--and it works. I've given up on trying to change that, and believe me, I've tried a lot of different things. I just keep a wide berth and never let him get nose to nose with strange dogs. It's frustrating. That said, you may get very far with Hester with the right training.

[Guest Giselle]

Dominance is not a personality trait in animals. In animal behavior, it is incorrect to be using the term "dominant" to describe a dog's personality. Unfortunately, the concept of dominance has been totally butchered in popular media so most people believe in an incorrect/incomplete concept of dominance. In animal behavior, dominance refers to the social relationship between two animals in regards to priority of access to a resource. Thus, dominance does not explain who your dog is. It describes the relationship that two animals hold in regards to a resource.

 

If we look at these situations from an objective and logical viewpoint based on what we know about ethology, the story is a lot more clear than if we allow our preconceived notions of "dominance" to cloud our judgment.

The behaviors that the Vizsla is showing are appeasement behaviors. The weight held back, tail down, ears back, squinty eyes are all signalling, "Calm down. I don't mean any harm". It's not signalling, "Okay, I submit to you." These are two totally different arenas of dog behavior, but people tend to conflate them because of popular misconceptions about dominance.

 

Basically, it sounds like your dog dislikes energetic greetings (most older dogs react this way) and corrects them with a growl and aggressive posturing.

The other dogs immediately put on appeasement behaviors to calm him. Everything becomes fine.

However, when other dogs do not put on appeasement behaviors (for whatever reason - overarousal, never learned how to do them, etc.), the stress and arousal escalate and your dog escalates his warning behaviors.

 

That's it. No dominance involved. Your job as a responsible dog owner, then, would be to train alternate behaviors to decrease the chance of warnings and decrease the overall arousal in the situation. This can all be accomplished by teaching your pup solid eye contact, playing recall games, and teaching an attentive Heel. I would also recommend supervising who gets to sniff your dog more and avoiding problematic dogs.

[JAJ2010]

Rainy changed about her 3rd year with us. Until then we just tried to avoid rude dogs. Not really an issue for us. We don't frequent dog parks.

 

Now she cries towards them so she can make a friend on leash. LOL of they actually jump on her and are larger she will still snark and correct them

[JJNg]

I completely agree with Giselle's response. These types of interactions aren't about dominance, except as interpreted from a human perspective. 'Submissive' or appeasement behavior also doesn't necessarily mean a dog is frightened. The dog is just responding to the other dog's body language and doing what is necessary to avoid conflict.

If the vizsla was truly scared by Hester's behavior, he would have left. The fact that he continued to interact, proceeded with the greeting and wanted to play indicates that he wasn't scared.

The whole concept of dominance comes from human social structures, was incorrectly applied to wolf behavior, then extrapolated to dog behavior. When we actually observe dog interactions and body language without the bias of assuming a hierarchy exists, we often find that there isn't one and there are other explanations for the behaviors we see. If you have the patience to get through some pretty technical writing, Alexandra Semyonova's website and paper offer a very interesting alternate view of dog social behavior.

 

ETA: Can't remember exactly where I read it, but I think it was Semyonova who makes the interesting argument that it's actually the submissive-appearing dog who is more confident, well-adjusted, and in control of the situation. In the face of a dog who is over-aroused and posturing in a threatening manner, it's the submissive dog who is able to change his behavior in response to the situation and prevent it from escalating to a conflict.

Edited March 30, 2013 by JJNg

[KickReturn]

I completely agree with Giselle's response. These types of interactions aren't about dominance, except as interpreted from a human perspective. 'Submissive' or appeasement behavior also doesn't necessarily mean a dog is frightened. The dog is just responding to the other dog's body language and doing what is necessary to avoid conflict.

 

If the vizsla was truly scared by Hester's behavior, he would have left. The fact that he continued to interact, proceeded with the greeting and wanted to play indicates that he wasn't scared.

 

The whole concept of dominance comes from human social structures, was incorrectly applied to wolf behavior, then extrapolated to dog behavior. When we actually observe dog interactions and body language without the bias of assuming a hierarchy exists, we often find that there isn't one and there are other explanations for the behaviors we see. If you have the patience to get through some pretty technical writing, Alexandra Semyonova's website and paper offer a very interesting alternate view of dog social behavior.

 

I don't think the Vizsla was truly scared - just a bit scared. Enough to offer some "appeasement" behaviours.

 

As for the Wolves, this is interesting as in my own observation of Wolves in their natural habitat there seemed to be a clear social hierarchy. Mostly as it related to access to food. At the bottom were some female members of the pack that were all but denied any food at all. One in particular was bitten on the rump and chased off. At the top were the breeding pair that ate first and only allowed certain others to eat at the same time. And for those others it was more of a snatch a leg and run off as opposed to lingering over the kill - a White Tailed Deer. Dominance? submission? appeasement? Impossible to for me to say. But there sure seemed to be some sort of hierarchy, at least while I was observing.

 

Interestingly today Hester encountered literally dozens of dogs of every imaginable breed and temperment and he never felt the need assert his presence. At times he was in very close proximity to 6 or more dogs. He just marched along, ignoring nearly all the dogs with only the occasional quick sniff. He never even raised his ears and didn't warn off dogs that were a bit more intense in their investigation of him. A perfect gentleman. Nothing else was different. As usual he just follows me, sniffing everything and as usual this is all off leash. Go figure.

Edited March 31, 2013 by KickReturn

[Guest Giselle]

That's great, but it doesn't matter what wolves do.

 

Wolves are wolves. Dogs are dogs. They are related but entirely different. I study canine cognition, and the domestic dog brain and the wolf brain are OCEANS apart!!!! They are different animals.

 

Wolves hunt = their ecology demands that they need a group structure to gain food and to reproduce. Wolves do have a hierarchical social structure.

Dogs scavenge = their ecology no longer requires a cohesive group structure and they are extremely promiscuous. Since the 1980s, it has been very clear that free-ranging dogs do NOT follow a hierarchical or cohesive social structure.

 

It's not about "dominance" in these social greetings. It's about what the animal can tolerate, corrective behavior, and appeasement behaviors. There are quantifiable levels of stress and arousal that dogs can tolerate before they give a corrective behavior, like a growl or a bark. But these levels shift and change according to the situation, according to the dogs, according to pre-existing levels of arousal. So, yes, it is dynamic and it is complex and interesting. But it is not a matter of dominance.

 

Edit to add: Normal social dogs tend to avoid aggressive posturing because it is a highly risky behavior. They prefer to do, as you noticed, ignoring, turning away, refusing to give in to play signals. By basically not engaging with the other strange dog, they are diffusing the conflict early. Normal social dogs only revert to aggressive acts when these initial ignoring signals are not heeded. Truly aggressive dogs are uncommon and present serious behavioral issues.

Edited March 31, 2013 by Giselle

[a_daerr]

Agree with Giselle and Jen. I'm less concerned about Hester's behavior and more concerned that you're taking him to an area that is clearly marked as off limits to dogs and does not appear to be fenced.

[KickReturn]

Agree with Giselle and Jen. I'm less concerned about Hester's behavior and more concerned that you're taking him to an area that is clearly marked as off limits to dogs and does not appear to be fenced.

 

I think that "no dogs" sign refers to the private property behind the sign. That beach is available to dogs. And no it's is not fenced. I notice you are in Pittsburgh. Where Hester lives is a very different sort of place. There are many places here where it is quite safe even without fences. Very little traffic in most areas and what their is just crawls along. I used to live in a city of 6 million. This is a different existence. Don't worry about Hester. He is very safe and well protected.

 

Oh and regarding Wolves, someone in town here has one as a pet. I haven't seen it in a year but it blew my mind to see them walking it through their neighbourhood. The poor creature seemed quite timid.

[Greydawg]

Oh, I recognize that puffed-up look!

 

My Alex looks like this sometimes when he greets a new dog, and I am never sure what it means.

I don't like how the encounter could end, so I get him away from the other dog right away.

 

This just happened on Friday with another big male Greyhound who mirrored Alex's puffy behavior, and I removed Alex before it escalated. Was I right or wrong?

 

This is an interesting discussion, and I appreciate the different viewpoints.

 

[KickReturn]

That's great, but it doesn't matter what wolves do.

 

Wolves are wolves. Dogs are dogs. They are related but entirely different. I study canine cognition, and the domestic dog brain and the wolf brain are OCEANS apart!!!! They are different animals.

 

Wolves hunt = their ecology demands that they need a group structure to gain food and to reproduce. Wolves do have a hierarchical social structure.

Dogs scavenge = their ecology no longer requires a cohesive group structure and they are extremely promiscuous. Since the 1980s, it has been very clear that free-ranging dogs do NOT follow a hierarchical or cohesive social structure.

 

It's not about "dominance" in these social greetings. It's about what the animal can tolerate, corrective behavior, and appeasement behaviors. There are quantifiable levels of stress and arousal that dogs can tolerate before they give a corrective behavior, like a growl or a bark. But these levels shift and change according to the situation, according to the dogs, according to pre-existing levels of arousal. So, yes, it is dynamic and it is complex and interesting. But it is not a matter of dominance.

 

Edit to add: Normal social dogs tend to avoid aggressive posturing because it is a highly risky behavior. They prefer to do, as you noticed, ignoring, turning away, refusing to give in to play signals. By basically not engaging with the other strange dog, they are diffusing the conflict early. Normal social dogs only revert to aggressive acts when these initial ignoring signals are not heeded. Truly aggressive dogs are uncommon and present serious behavioral issues.

 

Thanks for this Giselle, it really helps to explain things. Not that I was equating dog behaviour to that of Wolves but having the different basis for behaviour (hint vs scavenge) explained is enlightening.

 

I watch Hester closely and he does often exhibit many calming signals, sniffing, looking away, ignoring. But any dog that takes the face on approach to him or is exhibiting the wrong energy level gets the puffed up Hester treatment. Maybe he knows who is trouble before I do. Maybe the other dogs just don't understand Greyhound "language. I would just like to see him once back down and show appeasement to a dog that has confronted him. I can always distract him or take control of these situations but I'd like to see him accept these dogs as non threatening.

[MaryJane]

Hester has been with us for 18 months. He is 7 years old and this is him. Yes we are coming to realize he is very "alpha". It is the puppy type wiggly energy that brings the negative reaction, as well as dogs that he ignores but who persist in investigating him. Also any other dog that assumes an upright or confrontational posture is an issue. And he has never backed down - not ever! This frightens me. Fortunately he has won all these "stand-offs" thus far. Interestingly for small yappy dogs he either just runs by them or is very sweet and gentle I guess because he does not view them as a challenge. He will even allow very young puppies to run underneath him and play between his legs.

 

I wish I could reduce his obsession with social order and decorum.

 

In the first photo - the tail is NOT level with the back and doing happy wags -- it is up and it looks like a very slow wag - this means that your boy is very alert and ready to attack ... yes, attack. Even though the other dog is being submissive, you dog is not reading the signals and is ready to go at it. This indicates to me a dog not controlling himself - just my opinion ....

 

You mentioned that he has never backed down and that frightens you. hmmmmm ... it frightens you ... (I had to read that again) does it frighten you because he might get hurt or the other dog might get hurt? You seem to realize that there is something not right here - maybe you need to re-evaluate the situation for the safety of your dog and others..

 

He is a beautiful dog.

[GreytNut]

That looks like a dog fight waiting to happen. Hester looks like he's about 2 seconds away from tearing into that Vizsla. I know you aren't worried about Hester getting away from you off leash, but you might strongly consider not letting him off leash around other dogs since he doesn't play well with others. Since you are aware of the potential problem it would seem prudent to nip it in the bud.

 

Riley is the same way. He exhibits exactly the same reactive posture around unfamiliar dogs and has zero tolerance for bad manners. For that reason I don't consider him dog park material. He would likely end up in a fight. He has a small group of dogs that he knows and plays well with, and other than that I try to keep him away from other dogs. He's too tightly wound and I don't want to risk injury to him or to someone else's dog. A neighbor's dog did once try to hump him and he tore off part of its ear. The other dog was behaving badly and could arguably have been asking for it but I don't want a repeat. You can still take Hester places and have fun with him, I just wouldn't advise allowing interactions with strange dogs... especially off leash where you can't quickly or safely intervene if things go sour.

[christinepi]

In the first photo - the tail is NOT level with the back and doing happy wags -- it is up and it looks like a very slow wag - this means that your boy is very alert and ready to attack ... yes, attack. Even though the other dog is being submissive, you dog is not reading the signals and is ready to go at it. This indicates to me a dog not controlling himself - just my opinion ....

 

I'm just speaking for myself here. Tracker looks like Hester in the photo every single time he gets this close to a strange dog as well as to dogs that he only meets intermittently, but has encountered many times (like the neighbors' friendly dogs down the road). He's never attacked another dog. He's never showed his teeth to another dog or even pulled his lips back. He'll growl upon meeting a dog, but he also growls every.single.time he urinates/marks or sniffs another dog's urine or when I rub his butt in a way he adores or just to tell the world he's here. He plays well off leash with all sorts of other (initially strange) dogs, large and small. He's just concerned about his personal space when on leash. So he just puffs up to make that clear (he looks like Hester in the photo), and after a few seconds he's fine and loses all interest. So to say categorically that Hester is about to attack seems to me to be jumping to conclusions. The posture in the photo is just a fragment of a whole sequence of behaviors. It has to be put into context of what Hester actually does before, during, and after the encounter.

[3greytjoys]

Scary to think of the potential outcome when Hester meets his match. If Hester doesn't strike first, chances are another other dog will strike Hester.

 

I wonder about Hester's reaction when another loose dog tries to jump up on Hester's back. (Common canine behavior in unneutered males, and common during play.)

 

I've seen a (different) large breed dog attack a Labrador to death. It was beyond horrific and happened in an instant! There was no time for a human to try to separate the dogs, including large, adult male humans.

 

It's very scary to see Hester off leash in a non-fenced enclosure. It's even more scary to think of him being loose in public while making his own split-second decisions regarding his reactions towards others' beloved pets.

 

Dog owners are legally required to keep dogs under control for public safety in most places I've been across the USA.

Edited April 1, 2013 by 3greytjoys

[Guest zombrie]

I don't care that the dog is off leash - what I do care about is that even you said yourself his behavior frightens you. What will happen if a dog doesn't back down like the dog in the photo? It just screams a fight waiting to happen. Personally, I wouldn't let a dog off leash if he does not do well with others. But if you feel you must let him off leash, I think you should call him back to you when you see another dog coming and leash him up until they pass and avoid a confrontation.

[krissy]

I don't care that the dog is off leash - what I do care about is that even you said yourself his behavior frightens you. What will happen if a dog doesn't back down like the dog in the photo? It just screams a fight waiting to happen. Personally, I wouldn't let a dog off leash if he does not do well with others. But if you feel you must let him off leash, I think you should call him back to you when you see another dog coming and leash him up until they pass and avoid a confrontation.

 

This. I allow Summit off leash in places where he may encounter other dogs (hiking trails mostly). He exhibits similar posture/behaviour, though I've had him long enough now to know 98% of the time which dogs are going to be problems and which aren't. If I have doubts I call him back to me and ask for a heel. For the most part honestly, after a bit of posturing and maybe a bit of talking I've found the dogs typically work it out and are then great friends, however I tend to avoid that unless it's a very controlled meeting just in case. Or if it's a husky (against which he is 100% aggressive and I have no doubt would try to rip to shreds) I leash him and ask for attention while the other dog passes. There's no point taking a chance. Even though Summit would instigate against a husky and want to destroy it, I can all too well imagine how that would turn out for a greyhound.

 

I don't see anything wrong with having a reactive (not overtly aggressive) dog off leash so long as you have the appropriate verbal control. It does mean you have to be extra vigilant though so that you don't get surprised by a dog coming around a corner on the trail.