Question For Experienced People - Analyze This Behavior

[jetcitywoman]

I'm curious to get the opinions of experienced dog people here. I have some short videos posted on Youtube. If you have the patience (most are only a couple minutes long, one is about 13 minutes), could you review them and then tell me what you think of Capri's behavior?

 

This was done for a behaviorist to help us figure out why Capri has accidents in the house. I won't tell you her conclusion yet because I'd like your unbiased thoughts.

 

Search for them on Youtube under the channel name Capri0Ajax. They are the ones with titles starting with "Capri-potty" or "Capri-goodbye" and have the description "Video for Dr. Sinn". If you guys can't find them this way, I can post a link to one and then maybe you can browse to the others.

[Time4ANap]

Only watched Capri Goodbye but no one even acknowledged her when you left (couldn't hear it if you did). When we leave there is always a big commotion because Rocket assumes that he is going somewhere with us, even if he isn't. We always pet him, tell him bye and that he has to "stay here." "Stay here" is his cue that he isn't going, but he is always eager to try and get us to say he can go.

 

Capri looked very depressed in that video. tail tucked, and disinterested. I was shocked because it's a total 180 from what either of us has to deal with if we put our coats or shoes on. I didn't see any of the greyhound energy that I'm used to seeing when there is activity in the house.

 

Hope you can get this worked out.

[Guest Giselle]

My opinion only.

 

Capri Potty videos:

- ears up, alert expression as soon as you leave

- pacing

- whining

- displacement behaviors: shaking the body (like a dog would after a bath, not shaking-trembling), yawning, pawing at the door.

- scanning the environment

- showing frustration at the glass door (can't tell if she wants to go out or if the door is simply acting as a barrier for her pacing = both of which would cause frustration)

 

If all of these behaviors occur when you're out of the house, I'd say she has an interesting case of separation anxiety and that it has evolved into a practiced behavior of urinating by the glass door. I'd say that the glass door is sort of a trigger for her, and I'd try to block her access to the glass door as well as using behavior modification to decrease her overall anxiety.

 

My two cents only!

[jetcitywoman]

Actually, I think we've found the solution but it's not what the behaviorist has concluded. I also disagree with her "findings", which you are probably guessing is why I'm asking for other opinions. I'm actually shocked that she's suggesting it, because I don't see it at all.

 

We're always very careful to make comings and goings very emotionally neutral, so yes, we don't say goodbye or anything to them when we leave. We have such an established routine that they know when we're leaving for work at our normal times, and when we leave an unusual times. It's the unusual times when they - mainly Ajax - go bonkers.

[Guest Giselle]

What were her findings and conclusions?

[jetcitywoman]

Let me wait for a few more opinions, then I'll say. I do appreciate your analysis. It made me look at the videos again from the perspective you described. I wonder if the way I editted the videos is highlighting or calling attention to just her anxious behavior. We actually ran the camera at 4 - 5 hour intervals, but nobody sane is going to watch all that.... 4 hours of dogs sleeping, get a nosebleed from the excitement.

 

Could you also take a look at one or two of the goodbye videos and let me know if you still feel it's separation anxiety? I think what you see in the potty videos is that she's anxious because she has to pee and there's nobody to open the door for her. In the middle of this project, (I forget which of these clips, but one of the potty clips) she went immediately after I walked out the door and it was a large volume. So we've been requiring a backyard potty break just before we leave for work. I have to go out with her or she won't pee, and I noticed that many times she empties a full bladder, which tells me she's not emptying on her morning walk with dad.

Edited January 4, 2013 by jetcitywoman

[Guest Giselle]

I don't know Capri's background, so this is my opinion going solely off the videos. "Capri-potty1" shows a classic case of separation anxiety. Immediately after you leave, she starts pacing, whining, and immediately pees. The other videos show fewer or no "classic" SA behaviors.

 

I think I would need to know the answers to the following to make a decision:

1) If she is peeing due to anxiety, she should pee after you leave, even after a morning potty break.

2) If it's truly due to a full bladder, she shouldn't pee after you leave, as long as she has a morning potty break.

3) If, say, you take a day off from work and Capri comes back from a walk with her dad, does she wait at the glass door and potty? Or does she "hold it" to go out at a later time? If she can hold it, then it seems like her bladder functions perfectly fine and that her peeing is anxiety-related.

[jetcitywoman]

She doesn't pee after we leave if her bladder is empty. Lately we've been guaranteeing this by making her go out JUST before we leave. Before we realized that, she occasionally peed later in the morning also. The problem with the way I editted the clips is that the timing isn't apparent. In hindsight I should have put a clock in view of the camera. But one of those videos where you see her peeing, is actually 5 minutes before I got home for lunch.

 

She generally holds it when either of us works from home. However, on occasion, she has peed in "her spot" while we were there, simply in another room. We've also been working on rewarding her for asking to be let out. Most times she asks, on rare occasion she just quietly walks to the door and goes. This is VERY rare, though.

[Guest cwholsin]

The whining is definitely anxious whining. We hear the exact same kind of whine.. Especially the one where it sounds like she's going into a yawn at the end- which seems to be trying to calm down. If it's not seperation anxiety, something else is making her anxious/worried. I know the weather sucks now, but try baby gating the deck stairs and leaving the door open and see if she stops whining so much. If so, worried about needing to pee. Otherwise, it still seems like seperation anxiety. When Hermes had it, he would get the runs. But he'd go to the door to get out (because he didn't want to mess inside) and do his business there. Also, does she whine after peeing? If not, maybe it is just the pee.

 

Re: the clip where she pees right after you leave

If she had needed to pee that badly, she would have been at the door to go out before you left as well.

 

Another possibility: My hubby forgot to take Hermes out one time before going to work and he peed in his crate. After that, being in his crate made him so nervous that he would pee because he was anxious about needing to pee. This was at the beginning with him. We stopped putting him in the crate and the accidents stopped. He still had access to his crate, but never went in to pee, so it wasn't just a habit for him to pee in his crate. So maybe she's anxious about accidents, so she has one?

 

Edited in regards to your last post: she may need to be broken of the habit of peeing there. Can you keep her out of that room for a week or two unless she is being taken out to potty? That might be enough to get her out of the habit of peeing there.

Edited January 4, 2013 by cwholsin

[Brandiandwe]

I'm not an experienced dog owner, but I picked up your thing about her not emptying on her morning walk with your DH. It might be worth investigating how your husband walks her. Given I'm the one who walks our dogs most of the time, I have the routine down and I allow/ encurage lots of sniffing and marking for our girls. I know they're completely empty after a walk in the morning with me because they're still trying to mark and nothing is coming out. DH thinks a walk is a WALK. No time for sniffing, marking, or anything else. So, the girls aren't empty by the end and need to go out soon after.

[JohnF]

Much as the others have said. Capri is trying to counter a self-fufilling separation anxiety with displacement activities which include obsessive use of Calming Signals, peeing (because it might summon you back) and the confusion-clearing hard head shake. The whining expresses canine bafflement at her predicament.

Things are not helped by your other dog in the room acting like zombie over it and doing nothing to try and reassure her.

 

What I think is causing this is that you appear to be leaving, not in an emotion-free state but in a guilty and anxious frame of mind.

 

Suggest you discover and make use of Turid Rugass's 'Calming Signals' as described in the article in the link http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1

 

Then you can try and leave in a happy frame of mind.

[Guest blueberri]

She doesn't pee after we leave if her bladder is empty. Lately we've been guaranteeing this by making her go out JUST before we leave. Before we realized that, she occasionally peed later in the morning also. The problem with the way I editted the clips is that the timing isn't apparent. In hindsight I should have put a clock in view of the camera. But one of those videos where you see her peeing, is actually 5 minutes before I got home for lunch.

Hi,

 

Far from expert... but we've had a behaviourist working with us because of SA issues... and she said SA is worst for 20 mins after you leave, and in the 20 mins before you return (if regular routine). So that may explain the 5 mins before you got home?

 

Time4ANap: A lot of SA behaviours are exaggerated (or brought on) by high-energy departures and returns, ie making the loss of the owner a big deal. It's encouraged to keep things very low key, and even to ignore the dog for 10 mins before leaving/after returning. Even "lingering last looks" can contribute to anxiety. They're perceptive lil fellas

[cometdust1]

Having had 3 seperation anxiety dogs,I also think this is mild seperation anxiety.The pacing,wining,yawning,tongue flicking and shaking are all anxiety signals.Dogs will sometimes urinate/defacate when anxious.You are doing the right thing by not making any interaction with the dog when leaving.Are you rushing around before you leave?they pick up on that.My current hound does the same as yours.He's fine when we go to work but if we leave at an odd time together he will be O.K. sometimes but have a total meltdown at other times.He's only gone in the house a few times,so we're lucky with that.Time and continued work in decreasing anxiety should help.Also,does she drink a lot of water? If she does, maybe you could restrict it a bit for now.Make sure she has ample time to emty her bladder in the morning.Good Luck!

[Batmom]

If she doesn't pee in the house when her bladder is empty, you've identified the problem. Don't need videos to understand that.

 

She may ALSO have some degree of separation anxiety -- I didn't watch the videos -- but that would be a separate issue.

[Time4ANap]

Hi,

 

 

 

Time4ANap: A lot of SA behaviours are exaggerated (or brought on) by high-energy departures and returns, ie making the loss of the owner a big deal. It's encouraged to keep things very low key, and even to ignore the dog for 10 mins before leaving/after returning. Even "lingering last looks" can contribute to anxiety. They're perceptive lil fellas

Understood. We only had to deal with that when Rocket first arrived. He would howl or whine in his crate. Once he had the run of the house when we were gone, he could have cared less so we've not had to deal with it since. I am just used to a completely different dynamic when we head for the door.

[JJNg]

My interpretation after watching all the videos (typed before I read any other comments)... I don't think she has separation anxiety - especially seen in the video where she sleeps as you are getting ready and leaving. It looks like she needs to pee when she wakes up from a nap, goes to the door, then just pees at the door when she can't get outside. I do see her giving some calming signals before and after she potties, so she's not comfortable peeing inside and probably knows she's not supposed to, but she can't hold it and just has to go.

 

A couple other observations... In potty1, I'm wondering how long it had been since she'd peed? She seems restless after you leave and pees at the door less than 2 minutes later. If she'd been walked right before you left, I suspect she might not have had that accident. In potty2, where she pees twice, I'm wondering if she didn't empty the first time because she's trying to hold it. It also looks like she didn't like being put on leash to go outside in goodbye4 (rolling over, submissive signaling). Does she always act like that, or did she just not want to go out at that time? If she acts like that a lot when you go to take her outside, it may help to figure out ways to make potty trips more fun and rewarding.

 

Reading through the comments, it sounds like you probably agree with this, and if always making sure she empties before you leave solves this problem, you've got your answer.

[Guest grey_dreams]

My take is that she has separation anxiety. It looks like she has developed the behavior of urinating because in some way it feels calming to her, although in another way it may increase her anxiety. Kind of like someone who chews their fingernails. Hope you can find a way to help her.

[JJNg]

I'm curious, for all of you who feel that Capri has separation anxiety, what are you seeing in the videos to make you think that? Especially in all the "goodbye" videos, I'm seeing a dog who pretty much just sleeps while she is alone. The only slightly anxious behavior I'm seeing while she's alone is pretty much right before and after she urinates.

[silverfish]

OK, I've watched all the videos and I've read a few of the replies but not all, so forgive me if I've missed something relevant.

 

It looks to me as if Capri is a fearful dog, and she's submissive. It's a rare thing for an adult dog to collapse onto their side when a leash is being attached. The only time I've seen it with mine is when they're saying 'No. I really, really, really do NOT want to go out', for instance when they've been injured or unwell. This doesn't appear to be the case with Capri, because once the leash is on, she's up and goes out happily.

 

My second observation is that she doesn't seem to want to pee indoors. She tries to signal to go out in the first two videos I watched by standing at the door and whining, and she looks around as if she's waiting for someone to notice. Problem is, that if this happens often enough, it can become a habit to just walk to the door and pee. By the way, I would see if I could find something waterproof but less slippy, if it were me, because she may injure herself if she's startled or her feet slide too far.

 

If she pees literally five minutes before you get home, it makes me wonder ... how do you arrive? Do you walk, or drive? How busy is it where you are? It is known that dogs can detect their owner's car engine a long time before you'd think they could hear it, and I wonder if she knows you're on your way and that triggers her desire to go out and pee? Maybe she is already having trouble holding it, and knowing you're almost there makes it more urgent, like when you go to the bathroom, but find it occupied - the need to pee instantly becomes more urgent, doesn't it? Just a random thought.

 

My feeling is what's going on here isn't simple and straightforward. There are two or more factors in play. One may possibly be a twitchy bladder (maybe a UTI, maybe mild spay incontinence, maybe just 'twitchy'), one is possibly anxiety, though it may be more ... uncertainty as to what she is supposed to do. There may be a lack of trust and/or confidence. I notice she yawns after peeing - a self-calming behaviour. I see general anxiety in her demeanor, but only at certain times, and I think she looks a bit depressed.

 

I would certainly get her bladder function checked out thoroughly by a vet, if you haven't already done so. If you have, I'd ask if there are any more checks that can be made, because I'd want to make sure I'd thoroughly ruled that one out.

 

Next, I'd work on building her confidence, and her understanding of her place in the household. Do some positive, reward-based training with her, and just find times when you can tell her she is a good dog. It's something I always do when we get a new dog, even if they are really undisciplined - whenever I find them NOT doing something wrong, I tell them they're good dogs: when they're lying down quietly doing nothing, when they're walking calmly on the leash, when I call them for their dinner and they turn up (a pretty good time to call them by name and practice 'come'), when they 'go pee' in the garden/yard - there are lots of opportunities.

 

I think your girl needs confidence boosting, and I personally would plug in a pheromone diffuser like Adaptil.

 

Oh, and while dogs can learn when you go out and when your come back (your routine, as such), I still teach them a cue word or phrase to let them know I'm leaving right now and will be back.

 

Phrases we use are 'You stay here', said while looking straight at the dog, and in a firm voice, to let them know that this time, this particular dog is not coming with us (useful if you need to take one dog out alone), and 'See you later', said generally to the air in the room and in a cheerful voice, just as we go out of the door, to let them know that we are leaving now. In all other ways the leaving is low key, but personally, I think it helps to give them that cue.

 

I'd love to know what that trainer said!

[jetcitywoman]

Thank you everybody, very, very much for all this fantastic feedback! The consensus seems to back up the behaviorist's diagnosis (separation anxiety), so I won't dismiss that, but it's also very interesting and ... gratifying?... that some of you are just as confused as we are by her apparently mixed signals. I'm inclined to agree with the suggestion that there are several things going on here.

 

First off, to answer the burning question, the diagosis was SA, and she prescribed Clomicalm. This was just yesterday so we haven't picked the clomicalm up yet. I'm hesitant to treat something with drugs if behavior mod will also work, so you're all welcome to opine on that also. Do you think the clomicalm will help, or should it be a last resort treatment? The behaviorist also prescribed alone training, which we're absolutely happy to do.

 

(Aside for those who missed my previous posts over the last year about Capri's trials and tribulations: yes she's been tested numerous times for everything from UTI to tumors and we even tried drug treatments for incontinence and antibiotics for UTI just in case. Nothing really worked, which is how we f i n a l l y came around to spending the money on a behaviorist.)

 

Now I want to respond to this great post, specifically:

[jetcitywoman]

It looks to me as if Capri is a fearful dog, and she's submissive. It's a rare thing for an adult dog to collapse onto their side when a leash is being attached. The only time I've seen it with mine is when they're saying 'No. I really, really, really do NOT want to go out', for instance when they've been injured or unwell. This doesn't appear to be the case with Capri, because once the leash is on, she's up and goes out happily.

 

Ah, this will sound harsh, but.... she's trying to play me in that video. Capri is a very opinionated and clever little monkey and it's been rather a regular part of our relationship that I have to either outsmart her or gently enforce my will. As you see here, I don't scold or punish her, just gently require obedience. But also, as you can see here, as soon as the leash is clicked on, she drops the "please don't beat me" act and bouncily goes out. But I can say that she only did that the first couple times we required a before-leaving potty break. Once she understood that it was required, she happily goes out. Sometimes I still have to reach for the leash, but now all I need to do is carry it out with us, not even attach it to her.

 

My second observation is that she doesn't seem to want to pee indoors. She tries to signal to go out in the first two videos I watched by standing at the door and whining, and she looks around as if she's waiting for someone to notice. Problem is, that if this happens often enough, it can become a habit to just walk to the door and pee. By the way, I would see if I could find something waterproof but less slippy, if it were me, because she may injure herself if she's startled or her feet slide too far.

 

That's what DH and I picked up on, and why we were convinced it was NOT SA. However, you have a good point about it becoming habit. We've been accident-free for a little over a month now, so adding the before-leaving potty break has definitely helped. I'm not too worried about her slipping on the chair mat; perhaps that combined with ensuring that she's got an empty bladder before we leave will help un-train any door-potty habit she's picked up. (When we first put down the chair mat, we were interested to see if it's slipperiness would make her pee on the carpet near it. Nope, she still pees right in "her" spot.

 

If she pees literally five minutes before you get home, it makes me wonder ... how do you arrive? Do you walk, or drive? How busy is it where you are? It is known that dogs can detect their owner's car engine a long time before you'd think they could hear it, and I wonder if she knows you're on your way and that triggers her desire to go out and pee? Maybe she is already having trouble holding it, and knowing you're almost there makes it more urgent, like when you go to the bathroom, but find it occupied - the need to pee instantly becomes more urgent, doesn't it? Just a random thought.

 

We drive, but we both drive Priuses which are pretty quiet, and we live in the burbs. I don't think she can hear us coming when we're 5 minutes away, but it is possible she just knows the timing because our schedule is pretty darn regular.

 

My feeling is what's going on here isn't simple and straightforward. There are two or more factors in play. One may possibly be a twitchy bladder (maybe a UTI, maybe mild spay incontinence, maybe just 'twitchy'), one is possibly anxiety, though it may be more ... uncertainty as to what she is supposed to do. There may be a lack of trust and/or confidence. I notice she yawns after peeing - a self-calming behaviour. I see general anxiety in her demeanor, but only at certain times, and I think she looks a bit depressed.

 

Next, I'd work on building her confidence, and her understanding of her place in the household. Do some positive, reward-based training with her, and just find times when you can tell her she is a good dog. It's something I always do when we get a new dog, even if they are really undisciplined - whenever I find them NOT doing something wrong, I tell them they're good dogs: when they're lying down quietly doing nothing, when they're walking calmly on the leash, when I call them for their dinner and they turn up (a pretty good time to call them by name and practice 'come'), when they 'go pee' in the garden/yard - there are lots of opportunities.

 

I think your girl needs confidence boosting, and I personally would plug in a pheromone diffuser like Adaptil.

 

Wow, this is really surprising and several people have commented that she looks depressed or unconfident. I was about to post that Capri is the most confident dog in the world - if I had to describe her with only one word it would be "intrepid". However when I said this to DH just now, he said that she's confident when we're around. So you guys picked up on something that I didn't. Both dogs get spoiled silly - while we don't practice NILIF, we do strictly enforce house manners and have an almost rigid daily/weekly routine. They regularly get tons of love and physical affection as well as treats. So they're pretty confident and secure at normal times. However when the behaviorist visited, after we'd chatted for a while, she asked DH and I to step out of the house so she could see how the dogs responded. Capri got anxious - fixating on the door and then for a while after we returned, she would orient herself to facing me where ever I was in the room.

 

The behaviorist commented that greyhound behavior is much more subtle than other breeds, so everything seems turned way down. I agree, but with Capri I think sometimes her behavior is clear as a bell. Perhaps she needs independence training? When we first got her, she bonded to me so tightly that when DH tried to do obedience work with her she would look at me as if to ask permission to obey him. We fixed that, but it looks like she still bases most of her actions on what she thinks I want.

Edited January 5, 2013 by jetcitywoman

[Batmom]

If she doesn't pee when she's been out before you leave, what behavior would you be hoping to change with a regime of clomicalm and behavioral modification, and what behavioral modification techniques would you be using?

[jetcitywoman]

Just alone training. We could go back to McConnell's "I'll be Home Soon" book, which we still have, and the behaviorist recommended putting down a trail of treats as we walk out the door, wait 15 seconds and then come back in. This teaches her that our leaving is a good thing.

 

But yeah, if she's not peeing because of SA, then I don't want to treat her with drugs. Alone training at least doesn't have biological side effects.

[rschultz]

capri potty1

Some dogs pee when they get anxious. Try and make sure she isn't "faking it" outside in the morning. Lexie sometimes does that. Have you tried giving her a kong to keep her busy. In my opinion, she is peeing from nerves.

[Batmom]

If she doesn't pee when her bladder was emptied before you left, she isn't peeing from SA (a nervous dog can always squeeze out a few drops). She's peeing because she has a full bladder and that in itself may be making her nervous (Oh, crap, they left and I HAVE TO PEE! WHATAMIGONNADOOOOOOOOO????!). Simple solution, requires no drugs -- take the dog out for a pee before you leave.