Not A Good Day :(

[Guest EvanstonGrey]

Hi all,

 

You may remember us, I have a 3 year old little fawn girl hound called Fika and we adopted her littermate brother Ferris last month - he flew from FL to Chicago and has been home for about 6 weeks. Fika came to us after being trained in a prison program and living in a foster home, so she didn't require much training and has always been super eager to please. Ferris has only lived at the track or an adoption kennel and is still adjusting to being in a home - though he understands car rides, stairs, wood floors and windows now - not to mention potty training! We understand all this and have been working really hard with him both on our own and in obedience classes (we just had our second session). He's a different dog who will have different needs and that makes sense.

 

This morning Ferris was sleeping in bed with my husband and really scratched/bit him good... We think he got startled in his sleep or was dreaming, but it was scary and he's pretty scraped up (fat lip and everything). What I've learned from searching GT is that this is somewhat common and it's our fault for letting him in the bed with us, especially so soon. Remember we're rookies - these are our first dogs and neither of us grew up with pets...

 

Our plan now is to take away his bed privileges indefinitely and keep working hard at the obedience stuff and establishing that we're in charge. Is there anything else we should be doing? There are two dog beds in the bedroom for the pups and they have the rest of the place to themselves. Ferris has been banned from all furniture, no couch either, just the beds on the floor.

 

Then, later in the afternoon I was practicing commands with Ferris and tried "drop it" and he growled and barked at me even though I was trying to trade him for a piece of chicken breast. He had a plastic "busy bone" toy smeared with peanut butter with a couple rawhide disc things, not something I thought he'd be THAT crazy about... I haven't really gotten him to understand "drop it" before and was trying to work this into our daily training a little bit each day. Snarling with teeth bared when I only said the words - didn't even get my hands on the toy.

 

Lousy timing. And yes, stupid on my part to try working on this after what happened earlier, just trying to be consistent and not miss a training session

 

And so, today, our new hound beat up my husband and is growling at me - we're really feeling sad about it. Ferris is family, we love him and are committed to both of these pups, but this has been scary and frustrating. I don't think Ferris really should be punished for any of this and we aren't mad at him, just hurt. Hopefully this will just take a while to get past... but things definitely feel different here than they did yesterday.

 

Here are some pics of my boy... I'm hoping he'll be happy here once he calms down a bit

I'd love any advice or stories you may have, I have faith that he'll be a great pet - though this has been a doozy of a Thursday.

 

 

[spottydog]

First of all, he's really gorgeous! Don't get discouraged, but I know how that feels. I'm no great expert, only having had one hound, but several lab crosses, but I would say he is testing his limits, just like a kid. I don't let my hound sleep with me, having had the snarling thing in the middle of the night when I let him. I started feeding him when I got him by holding his bowl. Do you think you could try that or your husband. There are many more expert people than I who can help you. Probably all of them are in bed by now! Good luck, it's just a bumpy patch as you get used to each other.

[Hubcitypam]

Not trying to be an "ex-spurt" (what an endearing term, especially when used by moderators) but maybe just back off a bit.

 

You learned your lesson about sleeping in your bed and sleep startle so just put that under your belt. When Rex first arrived he and I fell asleep on the futon in the guest room. Poodle jumped on there and Rex came up in a panic and I awoke with arms flapping - one of which ended up in Rex's mouth with a very deep bite. Rex went on to sleep with me for years with no problems..it was just too much too soon. This may be the case with your guy.

 

He's been there 6 weeks. Obedience training is a great idea, but I can't remember working on "drop it" in the second class of any I've attended...gosh I think we were on sit and down...and maybe stay. He really doesn't even know who you are yet, why should he trust you to drop it? I'm sure I'll be flamed but I'd just let him settle in until after the first of the year. Go to class if there is another one or two, but let him figure out where in the heck he is, who you are and that he is safe before you expect him to do a lot.

 

 

 

 

P.S He is BEAUTIFUL!!

Edited December 21, 2012 by Hubcitypam

[Brandiandwe]

Also no expert, but have you tried training him with 'leave it'. We did this in the first class because, along with stay and a good recall can save a life. It then progresses to 'give' or 'drop it'.

 

We were taught using a stick, or some very unattractive thing plus super doopah treats. Hold the stick out to the dog, tell him to 'leave it' and when he looks away, he gets super doopah treat. Then progress to food, then high value. Mine now leave or drop whatever I tell them because they know they'll trade up.

[JJNg]

It actually sounds like you're off to a good start and have a good understanding of the technical aspects of training and management. I totally understand the mixed feelings of fear, hurt, and frustration when our beloved dogs growl or snap at us. However, when you step back and look at it from the dog's perspective, it is usually just an automatic response or a quick complaint. Incidents of growling or snapping like these do not mean that the dog does not like you or is unhappy in general. I know it's hard to do, but my suggestion is to try your best not to take it personally.

 

You mentioned that Ferris snarled at you when you just said the words "drop it" and hadn't even reach for the toy yet. What tone of voice were you using? And do you remember what kind of body language you were giving him as you said the words? Dogs can be very sensitive to tone and body language, so something probably made him feel threatened. Or perhaps it was related to previous sessions of "drop it" training that he wasn't very comfortable with. Learning to read his subtle body language to tell when he's getting a little stressed or uncomfortable is also helpful. A good place to start is learning to recognize calming signals.

 

I agree with Hubcitypam about backing off a little and just giving him some more time to get to know and trust you. I personally don't feel that he's testing either you or his limits, nor do I believe it's about needing to show him you're in charge. I believe it's more about establishing a relationship of mutual trust and love. A dog who is secure in his environment and fully trusts his humans has no need to show aggression. Truly involuntary responses like sleep startle do have to be approached a little differently as the dog doesn't have conscious control over it.

[msjpk]

How about calling your group and getting some input from them? Hopefully everyone will settle down soon. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Feisty49]

He is gorgeous. I agree with others who indicate you may be working on training too quickly. Six weeks isn't a long time to bond and learn to trust. I am not an expert, other than with my own hound, but if I were in your shoes, I'd work on a few non-threatening (to him) tasks before moving on to "give" or "drop it." Wait, stay, come, down, sit (if he will) are, IMO, easy and non-threatening. Give lots of treats and think about using a clicker. Using a clicker worked great with my not-interested, I'm-too-lazy-to-learn-anything girl.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Feisty49

[Guest EvanstonGrey]

First of all, he's really gorgeous! Don't get discouraged, but I know how that feels. I'm no great expert, only having had one hound, but several lab crosses, but I would say he is testing his limits, just like a kid. I don't let my hound sleep with me, having had the snarling thing in the middle of the night when I let him. I started feeding him when I got him by holding his bowl. Do you think you could try that or your husband. There are many more expert people than I who can help you. Probably all of them are in bed by now! Good luck, it's just a bumpy patch as you get used to each other.

 

Thank you! We think he's beautiful, too

The feeding idea is a really good one, I'll absolutely try it. Our trainer said the same thing about testing his limits too, she thinks he's trying to figure out where he fits in and seeing what he can get away with and that this stuff doesn't mean he's aggressive or a bad dog, just learning - and we agree. He's been such a good, smart boy so far, this had been the only crazy experience and it was an intense one.

[Guest IrskasMom]

Ferris is a gorgeous Boy. NO Expert here either. I would give him more time and space. No Bed Privileges .

[Guest EvanstonGrey]

Not trying to be an "ex-spurt" (what an endearing term, especially when used by moderators) but maybe just back off a bit.

 

You learned your lesson about sleeping in your bed and sleep startle so just put that under your belt. When Rex first arrived he and I fell asleep on the futon in the guest room. Poodle jumped on there and Rex came up in a panic and I awoke with arms flapping - one of which ended up in Rex's mouth with a very deep bite. Rex went on to sleep with me for years with no problems..it was just too much too soon. This may be the case with your guy.

 

He's been there 6 weeks. Obedience training is a great idea, but I can't remember working on "drop it" in the second class of any I've attended...gosh I think we were on sit and down...and maybe stay. He really doesn't even know who you are yet, why should he trust you to drop it? I'm sure I'll be flamed but I'd just let him settle in until after the first of the year. Go to class if there is another one or two, but let him figure out where in the heck he is, who you are and that he is safe before you expect him to do a lot.

 

 

 

 

P.S He is BEAUTIFUL!!

 

Thanks hubcitypam, this makes me feel tons better. I had no idea we were pushing ahead too quick and now that I think of it, you're absolutely right. Maybe a break and a refocus on "come" and "wait" is what we need... I don't want to rush him and really hope he can feel loved and safe here. Hearing about Rex gives us some good hope for the future, too - much appreciated

 

Also no expert, but have you tried training him with 'leave it'. We did this in the first class because, along with stay and a good recall can save a life. It then progresses to 'give' or 'drop it'.

 

We were taught using a stick, or some very unattractive thing plus super doopah treats. Hold the stick out to the dog, tell him to 'leave it' and when he looks away, he gets super doopah treat. Then progress to food, then high value. Mine now leave or drop whatever I tell them because they know they'll trade up.

 

Yes, we are working on "leave it" which he's getting pretty well at this point.... Should definitely wait to go back to working on "drop it", I think - and use less appealing things, maybe the peanut butter and toy was too much...

[Guest EvanstonGrey]

It actually sounds like you're off to a good start and have a good understanding of the technical aspects of training and management. I totally understand the mixed feelings of fear, hurt, and frustration when our beloved dogs growl or snap at us. However, when you step back and look at it from the dog's perspective, it is usually just an automatic response or a quick complaint. Incidents of growling or snapping like these do not mean that the dog does not like you or is unhappy in general. I know it's hard to do, but my suggestion is to try your best not to take it personally.

 

You mentioned that Ferris snarled at you when you just said the words "drop it" and hadn't even reach for the toy yet. What tone of voice were you using? And do you remember what kind of body language you were giving him as you said the words? Dogs can be very sensitive to tone and body language, so something probably made him feel threatened. Or perhaps it was related to previous sessions of "drop it" training that he wasn't very comfortable with. Learning to read his subtle body language to tell when he's getting a little stressed or uncomfortable is also helpful. A good place to start is learning to recognize calming signals.

 

I agree with Hubcitypam about backing off a little and just giving him some more time to get to know and trust you. I personally don't feel that he's testing either you or his limits, nor do I believe it's about needing to show him you're in charge. I believe it's more about establishing a relationship of mutual trust and love. A dog who is secure in his environment and fully trusts his humans has no need to show aggression. Truly involuntary responses like sleep startle do have to be approached a little differently as the dog doesn't have conscious control over it.

 

This is really helpful JJNg, I'm tempted to print out what you wrote and stick it to the fridge! Could you tell me how you use the calming signals a bit more? When your dog shows them, do you stop what you're doing and take a break? Ferris definitely shows these signs and I haven't been sure if they mean he's bored, being disrespectful or unfocused, or what - and our trainer tells me to persevere even if he's doing this stuff. Maybe he thinks this is threatening behavior from me? I certainly don't want that...

 

When I gave the "drop it" command, I used a pretty normal voice, but now that I think on it, I was standing above him and that probably was scary too...

[Charlies_Dad]

Agree with what others have written. Sorry this has happen though as it's understandable to feel like you do when this occurs. Ferris is a stunning boy and in time he will adapt.

[Guest EvanstonGrey]

He is gorgeous. I agree with others who indicate you may be working on training too quickly. Six weeks isn't a long time to bond and learn to trust. I am not an expert, other than with my own hound, but if I were in your shoes, I'd work on a few non-threatening (to him) tasks before moving on to "give" or "drop it." Wait, stay, come, down, sit (if he will) are, IMO, easy and non-threatening. Give lots of treats and think about using a clicker. Using a clicker worked great with my not-interested, I'm-too-lazy-to-learn-anything girl.

 

True. I didn't even think that "drop it" would be such a big deal but it makes complete sense - and bonding and trust are way more important to me at this point Clicker idea is a good one - I was using it and it works!

 

Not trying to be an "ex-spurt" (what an endearing term, especially when used by moderators) but maybe just back off a bit.

 

You learned your lesson about sleeping in your bed and sleep startle so just put that under your belt. When Rex first arrived he and I fell asleep on the futon in the guest room. Poodle jumped on there and Rex came up in a panic and I awoke with arms flapping - one of which ended up in Rex's mouth with a very deep bite. Rex went on to sleep with me for years with no problems..it was just too much too soon. This may be the case with your guy.

 

He's been there 6 weeks. Obedience training is a great idea, but I can't remember working on "drop it" in the second class of any I've attended...gosh I think we were on sit and down...and maybe stay. He really doesn't even know who you are yet, why should he trust you to drop it? I'm sure I'll be flamed but I'd just let him settle in until after the first of the year. Go to class if there is another one or two, but let him figure out where in the heck he is, who you are and that he is safe before you expect him to do a lot.

 

 

 

 

P.S He is BEAUTIFUL!!

 

Thanks hubcitypam, this makes me feel tons better. I had no idea we were pushing ahead too quick and now that I think of it, you're absolutely right. Maybe a break and a refocus on "come" and "wait" is what we need... I don't want to rush him and really hope he can feel loved and safe here. Hearing about Rex gives us some good hope for the future, too - much appreciated

 

Also no expert, but have you tried training him with 'leave it'. We did this in the first class because, along with stay and a good recall can save a life. It then progresses to 'give' or 'drop it'.

 

We were taught using a stick, or some very unattractive thing plus super doopah treats. Hold the stick out to the dog, tell him to 'leave it' and when he looks away, he gets super doopah treat. Then progress to food, then high value. Mine now leave or drop whatever I tell them because they know they'll trade up.

 

Yes, we are working on "leave it" which he's getting pretty well at this point.... Should definitely wait to go back to working on "drop it", I think - and use less appealing things, maybe the peanut butter and toy was too much...

 

 

 

Agree with what others have written. Sorry this has happen though as it's understandable to feel like you do when this occurs. Ferris is a stunning boy and in time he will adapt.

 

Thanks all for the kind and reassuring words... There is so much knowledge and experience in the community and even knowing that we're not alone in this kind of mishap means a great deal. Hoping for better days ahead

[Guest mld]

I think you were given some great advice!

JJNg gives you some great info and link to some important signs to watch out for (Turid Rugaas) is very well know for this

 

Best of luck with Ferris, I sure the handsome guy will come around in time

[a_daerr]

You've gotten really good advice here. I just wanted to add that this behavior is pretty normal of a dog who is used to track life, and is now gaining some confidence after being home for a short time. They've never had anything that belongs to them, so when they do get a toy or treat (even though it may not seem that special to us), it's a huge deal. Their natural instinct is to guard that resource, and growling/snapping is how they would communicate that notion to other dogs. It really doesn't mean that your dog hates you or is unhappy. He's just saying, "Ehhh, I don't 100% trust you yet, and I'd prefer you not take my toy away." I would definitely work on trading up and hand-feeding. Those are the two best ways to train a dog that a human hand approaching = something positive.

 

Same thing with the bed. It sounds like your guy started to equate the bed with "his space." At the track, he had a kennel of his own and was never forced to share with anyone. I would recommend setting up his crate/bed next to your bed, so he can still have his own space, but be within close proximity to you. I agree that it's also important to prohibit bed and furniture privileges until your hound completely understands the concept of space and does not feel threatened by your presence. Lots of us on GT have houndies that sleep in bed with us. If you eventually want that to happen, there are several steps that need to happen beforehand. We spent quite a bit of time sitting on the floor near Henry's bed before he was ever allowed on ours.

 

I agree that it might be too much too fast. He is likely overwhelmed by everything that is going on. Right now, I would work less on formal training and more on bonding (i.e. learning routines, giving treats, petting, playing, making up games, etc.) Don't get me wrong, I love obedience class. Between my two greys, we've taken about a dozen of them. But real training cannot begin if your hound is feeling overwhelmed, threatened, or confused. Once your bond is airtight and your hound trusts you completely, then obedience class would be the next step.

[Guest BlackandTan]

All 3 of my dogs growled at me for a while when trying to take stuff from them (If they got something good they still will too)

One of mine didnt really settle in and trust me for a good 8 months.. He will come around I would say like everyone else ease up a bit hes probably still trying to get used to the whole thing.

With the sleep agression what I did was when they were on there bed i would smack their butt to startle them and just say their name..Now they dont flinch unless one of the other dogs steps on them...

 

Just so nobody freaks out take "smack" with a grain of salt please!!!

Edited December 21, 2012 by BlackandTan

[Guest zombrie]

I agree - too much too fast. Remember that he is in a whole new world that he has never seen before and it sounds like a lot is being thrown at him.

At the track they have a schedule, same routine every day. They have their own space with their own food and no body they have to share that with

 

I once had a foster with very bad sleep aggression. It was to the point where he would lunge and snap at you if you simply walked past him while he was sleeping on the dog bed. I got great advice from someone and it worked like a charm. I was told to randomly throw socks, toys...anything soft and non-threatening at him while he was sleeping or just laying in his bed. Within a couple weeks of doing that, the lunging and snapping stopped.

[AEB]

What a gorgeous hound! Hang in there. Time, patience, and consistency in training will eventually take care of these issues. Both of my dogs growled at me in the beginning a few times regarding high value treats or toys. I also have been growled at by both when they were on furniture early on. I have also had close calls with sleep startle. And I was bit on the furniture while doing something stupid. I think it's all normal in the beginning. You are well on your way with what you have been doing but it sounds like you need to make some adjustments. At least for a while.

 

The first thing (and I am no expert, just someone who has been there and worked through similar issues) I would do is remove all furniture privileges. In this limit testing phase there seems to be a phenomenon that happens- growling/snarling/biting seems to lead to more of the same behavior. That can be because it has worked for the dog at other times. So no furniture for a long time (I went almost a year). In the meantime you want to work on training. Teach him to get on a towel on command and get off on command. Eventually get him to get off an on his beds on command. And if he is ever permitted on the furniture again I would start with a lower value piece like the sofa (v. your bed). And I would permit him on by invitation only. You want him to come up only when he is invited with an "up' command and gets off on command. That means working on training in the meantime and consistently keep him off the furniture. No dogs allowed until they are trained. I even put baby gates all over furniture to discourage getting on it when we were not around.

 

In the meantime we practiced "trading-up" and NILF. You could try hand feeding too.

 

So not only no furniture, but maybe no high value toys or treats for a while. Kevin used to rip his stuffies apart. They became a treat he worked for. If he ripped one when he got to play with one for a reward it was taken from him (food was used as a trade). But we started with low value trading up. Lots of exercise. Training exercises used every day, several times a day for a couple of minutes (leave it, down, touch, come). Hopefully as you set the new rules and he knows all his limits and what his role is he will realx and you will all work through this. Good luck!

[Guest Giselle]

It actually sounds like you're off to a good start and have a good understanding of the technical aspects of training and management. I totally understand the mixed feelings of fear, hurt, and frustration when our beloved dogs growl or snap at us. However, when you step back and look at it from the dog's perspective, it is usually just an automatic response or a quick complaint. Incidents of growling or snapping like these do not mean that the dog does not like you or is unhappy in general. I know it's hard to do, but my suggestion is to try your best not to take it personally.

 

You mentioned that Ferris snarled at you when you just said the words "drop it" and hadn't even reach for the toy yet. What tone of voice were you using? And do you remember what kind of body language you were giving him as you said the words? Dogs can be very sensitive to tone and body language, so something probably made him feel threatened. Or perhaps it was related to previous sessions of "drop it" training that he wasn't very comfortable with. Learning to read his subtle body language to tell when he's getting a little stressed or uncomfortable is also helpful. A good place to start is learning to recognize calming signals.

 

I agree with Hubcitypam about backing off a little and just giving him some more time to get to know and trust you. I personally don't feel that he's testing either you or his limits, nor do I believe it's about needing to show him you're in charge. I believe it's more about establishing a relationship of mutual trust and love. A dog who is secure in his environment and fully trusts his humans has no need to show aggression. Truly involuntary responses like sleep startle do have to be approached a little differently as the dog doesn't have conscious control over it.

This is really helpful JJNg, I'm tempted to print out what you wrote and stick it to the fridge! Could you tell me how you use the calming signals a bit more? When your dog shows them, do you stop what you're doing and take a break? Ferris definitely shows these signs and I haven't been sure if they mean he's bored, being disrespectful or unfocused, or what - and our trainer tells me to persevere even if he's doing this stuff. Maybe he thinks this is threatening behavior from me? I certainly don't want that...

 

When I gave the "drop it" command, I used a pretty normal voice, but now that I think on it, I was standing above him and that probably was scary too...

 

 

 

"Calming" signals are simply a friendly way of saying "appeasement behaviors". Aggression is normally NOT the first choice of social animals. Normal social animals avoid using aggression as their first resort. They try other things, like appeasement behaviors. These include: looking to the side, shifting their weight back, tucking their tail down low, turning their entire body to the side, dropping the head, pinning back the ears = basically, all behaviors that are meant to diffuse the stress of the situation. When your dog is showing these signs, it's her way of saying, "Hey, this is uncomfortable. Please back off. I want to get away from this situation." The appropriate response from us is to back off. The dog is uncomfortable. Why push it and make them stressed? In fact, when these appeasement behaviors aren't heeded by a person and the person approaches them more, the dog will then resort to the aggressive behaviors, like growling, nipping, lunging, barking, etc. (Note: I'm referring to normal social dogs. Routinely aggressive dogs or those who are aggressive to otherwise neutral stimuli are, by definition, abnormal. That's a whole different story.)

 

Unfortunately, a lot of dog trainers have anthropomorphized these behaviors and often think that the dog is "testing his limits" or "pushing your buttons". I really dislike anthropomorphizing our animals because doing so requires that we also attribute a highly developed, anthropomorphic "theory of mind" to our animals. As far as most researchers and psychologists are concerned, this is not the case with domestic dogs. The best way we can modify dogs' behaviors is simply to reward what we want (i.e. treat for being calm, treat for going to their bed, treat for giving up a toy, etc.) and remove the reward for what we DON'T want (i.e. if dog is barking at mailman, remove his ability to do so because barking is self-rewarding, ignore dog if he's jumping because attention is his reward, etc.). Thus, I would avoid thinking about him "testing his limits" and simply look at the facts: He's a new boy, he's probably still fearful about a lot of things, and he was asked to do very advanced behaviors. So, just take a step back, learn to read his body language, and work on more achievable behaviors for now. These are all very normal things that you're going through Just take a step back, breathe, and be proud of what you have achieved with your new boy.

[Guest jenniferk]

Ferris is so handsome! Did he and Fika recognize each other when you brought him home?

 

I've been there, so I understand how you feel. I won't speak to the behavior piece of it because you've gotten good advice on that from people who know way more than I do. But I will say what helped me get through the hurt of having the first dog we adopted bite my husband and draw blood (sleep aggression) then snap and growl at him a few more times (space aggression) was having a sense of humor. The biting incident happened the second night we had him. The very next day, an out-of-town guest was coming to stay with us. I met her at the front door and gravely explained what happened. She has always had dogs and wasn't fazed in the least. She urged us to consider naming him Killer, and all weekend we called him Killer and joked about it. That really helped.

 

Now, seven months later, Django is a different dog, and I have a very strong bond with him (my husband's bond with him is a work in progress). But we still joke about it. We dare each other to tackle him while he's sleeping to give him a big bear hug. And when people on the street ask before petting him if he bites, we say, "Only us!"

 

We did some consulations in our home with a positive-reinforcement trainer (he had a bunch of other issues too), but I really think what helped the most was time, patience, and love. My bond with him is so strong now that I can't help but wonder if part of it is because I helped him on his journey in transforming from a fearful dog terrified of everything to a confident, happy boy.

 

So, you are not alone! It sounds like you're already taking a lot of good steps and gotten really good advice. Like someone else said, just try not to take it personally. One day you will probably look back at this stage and laugh too!

[Guest EvanstonGrey]

You've gotten really good advice here. I just wanted to add that this behavior is pretty normal of a dog who is used to track life, and is now gaining some confidence after being home for a short time. They've never had anything that belongs to them, so when they do get a toy or treat (even though it may not seem that special to us), it's a huge deal. Their natural instinct is to guard that resource, and growling/snapping is how they would communicate that notion to other dogs. It really doesn't mean that your dog hates you or is unhappy. He's just saying, "Ehhh, I don't 100% trust you yet, and I'd prefer you not take my toy away." I would definitely work on trading up and hand-feeding. Those are the two best ways to train a dog that a human hand approaching = something positive.

 

Same thing with the bed. It sounds like your guy started to equate the bed with "his space." At the track, he had a kennel of his own and was never forced to share with anyone. I would recommend setting up his crate/bed next to your bed, so he can still have his own space, but be within close proximity to you. I agree that it's also important to prohibit bed and furniture privileges until your hound completely understands the concept of space and does not feel threatened by your presence. Lots of us on GT have houndies that sleep in bed with us. If you eventually want that to happen, there are several steps that need to happen beforehand. We spent quite a bit of time sitting on the floor near Henry's bed before he was ever allowed on ours.

 

I agree that it might be too much too fast. He is likely overwhelmed by everything that is going on. Right now, I would work less on formal training and more on bonding (i.e. learning routines, giving treats, petting, playing, making up games, etc.) Don't get me wrong, I love obedience class. Between my two greys, we've taken about a dozen of them. But real training cannot begin if your hound is feeling overwhelmed, threatened, or confused. Once your bond is airtight and your hound trusts you completely, then obedience class would be the next step.

 

You're right - you guys have all given me great advice - between this thread, a glass of wine and good rest we all feel better today

 

I think I just got overzealous with signing him up for obedience so fast. I really want him to succeed and feel happy here, plus bonding/routines/easy commands are more fun anyway - and I'm not ready to get back into "drop it" for awhile myself. We all need to get back to feeling comfortable with each other and that should be most important

 

 

I agree - too much too fast. Remember that he is in a whole new world that he has never seen before and it sounds like a lot is being thrown at him.

At the track they have a schedule, same routine every day. They have their own space with their own food and no body they have to share that with

 

I once had a foster with very bad sleep aggression. It was to the point where he would lunge and snap at you if you simply walked past him while he was sleeping on the dog bed. I got great advice from someone and it worked like a charm. I was told to randomly throw socks, toys...anything soft and non-threatening at him while he was sleeping or just laying in his bed. Within a couple weeks of doing that, the lunging and snapping stopped.

 

This is a GREAT idea, will try it! Do you think dogs have REM sleep like humans or sleep more deeply at night than during the day? Ferris doesn't seem fazed by us at all when he's napping, but nighttime is another story - he seems to conk WAY out and he's absolutely dead to the world. Lots of dreaming, twitching, snuffling, even whimpering sometimes.

 

What a gorgeous hound! Hang in there. Time, patience, and consistency in training will eventually take care of these issues. Both of my dogs growled at me in the beginning a few times regarding high value treats or toys. I also have been growled at by both when they were on furniture early on. I have also had close calls with sleep startle. And I was bit on the furniture while doing something stupid. I think it's all normal in the beginning. You are well on your way with what you have been doing but it sounds like you need to make some adjustments. At least for a while.

 

The first thing (and I am no expert, just someone who has been there and worked through similar issues) I would do is remove all furniture privileges. In this limit testing phase there seems to be a phenomenon that happens- growling/snarling/biting seems to lead to more of the same behavior. That can be because it has worked for the dog at other times. So no furniture for a long time (I went almost a year). In the meantime you want to work on training. Teach him to get on a towel on command and get off on command. Eventually get him to get off an on his beds on command. And if he is ever permitted on the furniture again I would start with a lower value piece like the sofa (v. your bed). And I would permit him on by invitation only. You want him to come up only when he is invited with an "up' command and gets off on command. That means working on training in the meantime and consistently keep him off the furniture. No dogs allowed until they are trained. I even put baby gates all over furniture to discourage getting on it when we were not around.

 

In the meantime we practiced "trading-up" and NILF. You could try hand feeding too.

 

So not only no furniture, but maybe no high value toys or treats for a while. Kevin used to rip his stuffies apart. They became a treat he worked for. If he ripped one when he got to play with one for a reward it was taken from him (food was used as a trade). But we started with low value trading up. Lots of exercise. Training exercises used every day, several times a day for a couple of minutes (leave it, down, touch, come). Hopefully as you set the new rules and he knows all his limits and what his role is he will realx and you will all work through this. Good luck!

 

This is a really good idea. Ferris is a toy collector and he loves his stuffies - I am a sucker and the dogs have TONS of them. Maybe we could put some away and use them as extra special treats later on.

Thank you for the input, Kevin seems like an absolutely WONDERFUL boy and I hope Ferris will become so happy here too

 

Ferris is so handsome! Did he and Fika recognize each other when you brought him home?

 

I've been there, so I understand how you feel. I won't speak to the behavior piece of it because you've gotten good advice on that from people who know way more than I do. But I will say what helped me get through the hurt of having the first dog we adopted bite my husband and draw blood (sleep aggression) then snap and growl at him a few more times (space aggression) was having a sense of humor. The biting incident happened the second night we had him. The very next day, an out-of-town guest was coming to stay with us. I met her at the front door and gravely explained what happened. She has always had dogs and wasn't fazed in the least. She urged us to consider naming him Killer, and all weekend we called him Killer and joked about it. That really helped.

 

Now, seven months later, Django is a different dog, and I have a very strong bond with him (my husband's bond with him is a work in progress). But we still joke about it. We dare each other to tackle him while he's sleeping to give him a big bear hug. And when people on the street ask before petting him if he bites, we say, "Only us!"

 

We did some consulations in our home with a positive-reinforcement trainer (he had a bunch of other issues too), but I really think what helped the most was time, patience, and love. My bond with him is so strong now that I can't help but wonder if part of it is because I helped him on his journey in transforming from a fearful dog terrified of everything to a confident, happy boy.

 

So, you are not alone! It sounds like you're already taking a lot of good steps and gotten really good advice. Like someone else said, just try not to take it personally. One day you will probably look back at this stage and laugh too!

 

Aw, thanks a million for this. I have been so embarrassed about this - not to mention my husband who had to explain his cuts and bruises at work yesterday What you write about with Django is one of the things I most dream of with Ferris - taking a journey together and learning from each other in becoming more confident, comfortable and trusting. We'll hang in there and give Ferris the time, love, and patience he needs before getting into anymore intense training.

 

I do think they recognized each other, believe it or not! We were expecting Fika to be more crabby about Ferris coming home (she's my first girl) but they've gotten on really well. No disagreements and they are always together. I'm excited to watch their bond grow and develop, too

 

 

[Guest EvanstonGrey]

It actually sounds like you're off to a good start and have a good understanding of the technical aspects of training and management. I totally understand the mixed feelings of fear, hurt, and frustration when our beloved dogs growl or snap at us. However, when you step back and look at it from the dog's perspective, it is usually just an automatic response or a quick complaint. Incidents of growling or snapping like these do not mean that the dog does not like you or is unhappy in general. I know it's hard to do, but my suggestion is to try your best not to take it personally.

 

You mentioned that Ferris snarled at you when you just said the words "drop it" and hadn't even reach for the toy yet. What tone of voice were you using? And do you remember what kind of body language you were giving him as you said the words? Dogs can be very sensitive to tone and body language, so something probably made him feel threatened. Or perhaps it was related to previous sessions of "drop it" training that he wasn't very comfortable with. Learning to read his subtle body language to tell when he's getting a little stressed or uncomfortable is also helpful. A good place to start is learning to recognize calming signals.

 

I agree with Hubcitypam about backing off a little and just giving him some more time to get to know and trust you. I personally don't feel that he's testing either you or his limits, nor do I believe it's about needing to show him you're in charge. I believe it's more about establishing a relationship of mutual trust and love. A dog who is secure in his environment and fully trusts his humans has no need to show aggression. Truly involuntary responses like sleep startle do have to be approached a little differently as the dog doesn't have conscious control over it.

This is really helpful JJNg, I'm tempted to print out what you wrote and stick it to the fridge! Could you tell me how you use the calming signals a bit more? When your dog shows them, do you stop what you're doing and take a break? Ferris definitely shows these signs and I haven't been sure if they mean he's bored, being disrespectful or unfocused, or what - and our trainer tells me to persevere even if he's doing this stuff. Maybe he thinks this is threatening behavior from me? I certainly don't want that...

 

When I gave the "drop it" command, I used a pretty normal voice, but now that I think on it, I was standing above him and that probably was scary too...

 

 

"Calming" signals are simply a friendly way of saying "appeasement behaviors". Aggression is normally NOT the first choice of social animals. Normal social animals avoid using aggression as their first resort. They try other things, like appeasement behaviors. These include: looking to the side, shifting their weight back, tucking their tail down low, turning their entire body to the side, dropping the head, pinning back the ears = basically, all behaviors that are meant to diffuse the stress of the situation. When your dog is showing these signs, it's her way of saying, "Hey, this is uncomfortable. Please back off. I want to get away from this situation." The appropriate response from us is to back off. The dog is uncomfortable. Why push it and make them stressed? In fact, when these appeasement behaviors aren't heeded by a person and the person approaches them more, the dog will then resort to the aggressive behaviors, like growling, nipping, lunging, barking, etc. (Note: I'm referring to normal social dogs. Routinely aggressive dogs or those who are aggressive to otherwise neutral stimuli are, by definition, abnormal. That's a whole different story.)

 

Unfortunately, a lot of dog trainers have anthropomorphized these behaviors and often think that the dog is "testing his limits" or "pushing your buttons". I really dislike anthropomorphizing our animals because doing so requires that we also attribute a highly developed, anthropomorphic "theory of mind" to our animals. As far as most researchers and psychologists are concerned, this is not the case with domestic dogs. The best way we can modify dogs' behaviors is simply to reward what we want (i.e. treat for being calm, treat for going to their bed, treat for giving up a toy, etc.) and remove the reward for what we DON'T want (i.e. if dog is barking at mailman, remove his ability to do so because barking is self-rewarding, ignore dog if he's jumping because attention is his reward, etc.). Thus, I would avoid thinking about him "testing his limits" and simply look at the facts: He's a new boy, he's probably still fearful about a lot of things, and he was asked to do very advanced behaviors. So, just take a step back, learn to read his body language, and work on more achievable behaviors for now. These are all very normal things that you're going through Just take a step back, breathe, and be proud of what you have achieved with your new boy.

 

This is such valuable info - thank you for explaining. I will definitely think about the calming signals differently and be more careful about choosing what works best for Ferris. He really is a good guy, has come SO far SO fast (when we first got him he was too nervous to even take treats at all and was marking all over the house) and I'd much rather wait and give treats for good behavior than worry about correcting or trying to keep him focused on the training when he's bored or frustrated. I'll let him guide the training and not the humans for a while anyway.

 

I ordered a bunch of books yesterday to learn more about how to connect with Ferris -

Here's what a got:

two Patricia McConnell books "Feeling Outnumbered" and "How to be the Leader of the Pack"

also this one, "Childproofing your dog" by Sarah Wilson/Brian Kilcommons (we don't have kids but this was recommended by the trainer)

 

Any other suggestions?

[Guest Giselle]

Patricia McConnell is a great resource. "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor and "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson are also very good for providing a general knowledge about how dogs behave and why. They aren't necessarily step-by-step guides to teaching obedience or what-have-you, but I think that having a solid background in understanding how/why dogs think will infinitely increase your training abilities Good luck! You're on an excellent path towards long-term success with your pup!

[Guest Wasserbuffel]

Just like you, I pushed my dog's "drop it" skills too hard, too fast. I didn't get snarled at. I got teeth on my arm. She didn't bite even hard enough to leave an impression, or hurt me, but you better believe that I backed right off!

 

A couple years later and my girl looks up in anticipation when I approach and she's got something delicious.

 

She also was a bit space aggressive at first. We were routinely snarled and snapped at for just trying to sit on the same couch.

 

Now I can sit on her:

 

You've gotten a lot of good responses, so my having been in your shoes is all I really have to add.

[AEB]

I forgot to add something that is along the lines of what Giselle said (and she was very helpful to me when we got Kevin and went through lots of issues at first- thanks Giselle!) - reward the behavior that you want. Think about what you want to change and then reward - (if he's barking at you to play, ignore until he is quiet and then reward the quiet (with a good boy or other positive reward)). And also remember the power of the word "no". Use it very sparingly.