Introduction And Bad Health News About My Dogs

[joejoesmom]

To show that there is no right or wrong answer: I chose amp and chemo for my osteo boy and have never regretted a single minute of it. It was absolutely the right thing to do for him. Had he been a different dog, my decision may have been different. If I were in a different financial position, my decision may have been different. But given what I knew at the time, the personality of my dog, my finances, and my easy access to OSU and Dr. Couto, I chose to amputate, do IV chemo, and do a metronomic protocol.

 

For Twister, my whipador girl, I started out aggressively treating her lymphoma with the Wisconsin CHOP protocol. It quickly became clear that this was not the right thing for her (various reasons) so I switched to a much less aggressive leukeran and prednisone combo. She only had 14 more weeks, but I cherished them all.

 

If Twister's sister, Shelby, got cancer at her current age of 15 and 7 months, I probably would only treat to make her feel better. I wouldn't put her through any major chemo.

 

So it all depends on the dog, the family, the finances, etc. You know your dogs best. You and your ex should decide what the best course of treatment is. Please don't let what we have done change your mind. Certainly use the facts that you have heard from us, along with your gut feelings and your finances to make your decision. Whatever decision you make, it will be out of love for your dogs so it can't be wrong.

 

Jane

[MP_the4pack]

Jonathan, I'm sorry you're joining the OS club.

 

But I wanted to share that I chose AMP for a 12 yr old. I drove all the way to OSU from NJ specifically because Dr. Couto has probably seen more greyhounds than anyone else. He could tell me straightforward if Diamond was an amp candidate.

 

She was. He said she's a very young 12 yr old. I was told that she would probably have a longer recovery than the 'youngsters' but should adapt.

 

Well she showed them all and recovered faster than most youngsters. She had a very happy painfree 6 months before OS hit another leg.

 

And....I didn't have to fear coming home from work one day to find she had broken the OS leg early in the day and suffered all day with that. That's a huge fear of mine. The driving force for me to do the amp.

 

The only thing I did for her with her handicap was create a ramp in place of the 6 steps she had to use. She could do steps, but it was easier on her with a ramp. I put it together by myself in a weekend. (I'm a single middle age woman)

Edited March 26, 2012 by MP_the4pack

[BauersMom]

There is still a risk of having a broken leg if the osteo progresses to another location.

[CherylB]

Welcome and so sorry for your pups. This is the hardest part of loving a dog, but you will find a lot of support and friendship here. Hugs.

[IndyandHollyluv]

Jonathan - Welcome! And there is nothing wrong with being a dork - I'm guessing you're in good company here.

 

I am so sorry about Clown. And thank you for your kind words about my boy Lure posted under "Sudden Hind End Weakness." Such decisions weigh heavily ...

 

I am no expert and have not travelled the osteo path. But if I have learned nothing else over the years - and after reading so many incredible stories on GT - I believe it all comes down to the patient and what you think they can or cannot handle. We know our four-legged friends better than anyone. Some dogs are troopers and others cringe at the sight of the vet's office.

 

As an owner, I ask myself if I have the financial resources to stay the medical course? (and, believe me, I have spent THOUSANDS on my hounds). I feel it's important to be honest with yourself and have a "reality check" about the situation and prognosis. I guess I've always been a quality of life person. Even we mere mortals have a 100% mortality rate (last I heard), so we are all just passing through ...

 

There are some amazing stories on GT about old dogs who have rallied and young dogs who sadly could not. Not to mention the dedication of their loving owners.

 

I can only echo what others have said: you know your puppers best. Just be their advocate and protector. You will make the right decision for Clown.

 

Hugs to you. And for your sweet boys.

Edited March 26, 2012 by IndyandHollyluv

[IndyandHollyluv]

BTW, just watched the video. Hey, I have the same baby gate - but my dogs aren't that smart, apparently. What a big boy!

[Guest JonathanGreyh]

I have to say it again: You people are so nice! I love this place. Thanks for all of your well-wishes for my boys. Really means a lot.

ELLEN:

Anyway, I live in Massachusetts, and a few years ago one of my greys was diagnosed with a different type of cancer (lymphoma). We had a wonderful experience with NEVOG (New England Veterinary Oncology Group), which is in Waltham.

 

Yeah, I've used them before, for our older guy, Clown. They are an option, thanks for the reminder.

 

GEORGEofNE:

That's very sad, but with a dog of that age, I would not be doing any treatment myself. I'd work on pain management and giving him lots and lots of love. Everyone feels very differently about these things.

 

Thanks for the advice. Your suggestion is definitely one of my strongest instincts at this point. Talking with my ex tonight about any developing ideas/feelings.

 

Babs, you are a champ! 19K ??? Wow. I'm wayyyyy in the multiple thousands but not near that. I need a raise

BABS:

Our vet pretty much told us make him happy, let him know he's loved and give him what he wants (well, within limits!!!)

Wise words! Both of them will get whatever, lol, they want.

 

Joejoesmom--thanks for the advice. Tell me how well the " leukeran and prednisone combo" worked. We had another wonderful grey, named Fly who, at the end of his health we tried to make him comfortable with a tramadol patch--the poor guy had the absolute worst two days of his life...constant panting, eyes-wide-open (psychologically freaking out...). I'm inclined to not use opiates like those on our other two guys. Any thoughts? Did your girl Twister seem pretty pain-free? WOW...Shelby is going on 16??? Amazing.

 

MPthe4PACK: So happy to hear that Diamond rallied and persevered after the amputation. Thanks for your advice.

MP:

And....I didn't have to fear coming home from work one day to find she had broken the OS leg early in the day and suffered all day with that. That's a huge fear of mine. The driving force for me to do the amp

 

I am horribly afraid of that, too. That would just be awful.

 

IndyandHollyluv: Good advice. Glad you accept my dorkiness My best to Lure. You wrote: "Some dogs are troopers and others cringe at the sight of the vet's office." Well, as I've said, Luke is special needs. He is a nervous wreck going to the vet's, when strange men approach him, when cats have chased him (LOL, he cornered a cat trying, I think, to "make friends" and he got beat up. Such a gentle giant!100 lbs but got his face all bloodied by a 8 lb cat!!!) So, his psychology is foremost in my mind, right now. I don't want to traumatize him, you know? A dozen or two vet visits before he passes will make him VERY unhappy.

 

I realize I am writing a novel here. To top matters, and on a Monday morning, I got a really jerky email from the vet who we've used for a long time and who made the diagnosis on Saturday. I sent him a nice email with the following few sentences in it:

" I am saddened by the news about Luke and have been reading a bunch since yesterday. Ohio State has a world-class greyhound vet program and offers free consults regarding osteoscarcoma x-rays. Do the xrays that you took of Luke's leg come in a digital format or are only hard copies available? Either way I want to send them to OSU for a second opinion--not that I don't have total trust in your assessment, it is only that Sarah and I want to make the right decision, and, well, "the more you know...". Please let me know so that I can hopefully send them on their way on Mon or Tuesday."

 

Here is his really rude response:

"I'd be happy to send you the x-rays so that may send them to whomever you choose. Furthermore I' be happy to refer Luke to whatever institution that you feel will provide the "world-class" care that we are obviously unable to provide.

Regards"

 

W T F ????

 

I wrote back :

"Wow. Not the type of response I was expecting. Sorry you took such

offense, apparently.

 

Anyhow, I want the free consult with OSU because a second opinion

never hurt and also because they will offer Luke a free supply of

doxorubicin, should we go that route and should you advise that as his

type of chemo medicine.

 

Do you have digital copies that you would like to pass on to me or not?

 

Thanks"

 

So, I'm still waiting to hear back. My ex has a business relationship with this vet so my hands are tied as far as telling him to %$^%^%^%^%$%%#.

 

Thought you all might get a kick out of his tantrum, though

Edited March 26, 2012 by JonathanGreyh

[Jenbo]

a kick? yes, he needs a kick on the patoot.

[Guest JonathanGreyh]

Hi, Jonathon...I am sorry that you and your pup have to go through this. It's really rough! My heart goes out to you!!! I understand about a hound being so big - I have a dark brindle that is 92#. And he is BIG! We are going through a similar thing as your are. Mac was diagnosed with Mesothelioma about 3 weeks ago and that time frame of holding on to him is scary - our poor guy has been through a rough time of it also. Two years ago he suffered a blood clot in the brain, was paralyzed on the left side for about a month, but recovered nicely. No sign of any paralysis, but he is on 4 meds for hypertension. Then this year we were hit with this! I just want Mac to have quality of life and when that can't be anymore, then my husband and I have to make the decision that we dread. But for now, he is happy and knows we love him and that we treasure every minute we spend with our hounds. Take care, and know that you are in my thoughts and prayers...

 

Barbara, Mac & Cleo

 

Hi Barbara,

 

I'm so sorry to hear about Mac!!! Terrible news. What is the prognosis, time wise? FWIW, my Mom died of Mesothelioma when I was 6. Horrible type of cancer! AMazing he recovered from that clot, though. Luke had a serious heart issue 3 years ago, he's still on a bunch of heart meds, etc... I know how you feel!!! So gald to hear that you have a BIG GUY, too. My best to you, hubby, Mac and Cleo.

[MP_the4pack]

Just WOW!

 

A good vet has no problem with you going for a second opinion. Too bad you're tied to him.

 

Best of luck whatever decision you make.

 

And please remember, no decision you make is a wrong one. You are making the decision with love in your heart for him. One thing that I think haunts many of us is 2nd guessing ourselves. Did we make the right decision? Did we wait too long? Do it too soon? Was the diagnosis right?

 

There are no wrong answers here.

[a_daerr]

Best of luck and positive thoughts for your big guy.

[PatricksMom]

What a jerk that vet is, I'm sorry you're dealing with that on top of everything!

 

As for your question about opiates, my dog has always done really well on them--ranging from oral tramadol to the patch to the IV methadone he got this weekend. The vets we were working with generally like opiates as a safe, effective option. Some people can have that reaction too, but most don't, so I wouldn't rule out trying opiates to see if they keep Luke comfortable.

[Guest Babs]

Hi, Jonathon...I am sorry that you and your pup have to go through this. It's really rough! My heart goes out to you!!! I understand about a hound being so big - I have a dark brindle that is 92#. And he is BIG! We are going through a similar thing as your are. Mac was diagnosed with Mesothelioma about 3 weeks ago and that time frame of holding on to him is scary - our poor guy has been through a rough time of it also. Two years ago he suffered a blood clot in the brain, was paralyzed on the left side for about a month, but recovered nicely. No sign of any paralysis, but he is on 4 meds for hypertension. Then this year we were hit with this! I just want Mac to have quality of life and when that can't be anymore, then my husband and I have to make the decision that we dread. But for now, he is happy and knows we love him and that we treasure every minute we spend with our hounds. Take care, and know that you are in my thoughts and prayers...

 

Barbara, Mac & Cleo

 

Hi Barbara,

 

I'm so sorry to hear about Mac!!! Terrible news. What is the prognosis, time wise? FWIW, my Mom died of Mesothelioma when I was 6. Horrible type of cancer! AMazing he recovered from that clot, though. Luke had a serious heart issue 3 years ago, he's still on a bunch of heart meds, etc... I know how you feel!!! So gald to hear that you have a BIG GUY, too. My best to you, hubby, Mac and Cleo.

 

Thank you...with a diagnosis as bad as ours...it is what it is! And all that we can do! A thousand test aren't going to show anything different! So right now we are enjoying happy times with our big boy, monitoring him carefully, but trying to be as normal as possible! How funny that the "Big" dogs are such scaredy cats! Mac is the same way...he has the white coat syndrome at the vets! And forget about 4th of July! While Cleo is the "I am ready to party" kind! These guys have such great personalities...and I love them to pieces!

[carronstar]

I am so sorry about this diagnosis. I've been there.

 

None of my girls has had a problem with vets, oddly, they have all been happy to go to the office. I have had a home care vet for the last eight years so their office visits are limited. If you decide to go the palliative care route, would a home care vet be an option? It is much less invasive, more like a nice visitor who happens to be checking him out while petting and visiting. Plus, there's no white coat to be afraid of!

[joejoesmom]

 

Joejoesmom--thanks for the advice. Tell me how well the " leukeran and prednisone combo" worked. We had another wonderful grey, named Fly who, at the end of his health we tried to make him comfortable with a tramadol patch--the poor guy had the absolute worst two days of his life...constant panting, eyes-wide-open (psychologically freaking out...). I'm inclined to not use opiates like those on our other two guys. Any thoughts? Did your girl Twister seem pretty pain-free? WOW...Shelby is going on 16??? Amazing.

 

 

 

I realize I am writing a novel here. To top matters, and on a Monday morning, I got a really jerky email from the vet who we've used for a long time and who made the diagnosis on Saturday. I sent him a nice email with the following few sentences in it:

" I am saddened by the news about Luke and have been reading a bunch since yesterday. Ohio State has a world-class greyhound vet program and offers free consults regarding osteoscarcoma x-rays. Do the xrays that you took of Luke's leg come in a digital format or are only hard copies available? Either way I want to send them to OSU for a second opinion--not that I don't have total trust in your assessment, it is only that Sarah and I want to make the right decision, and, well, "the more you know...". Please let me know so that I can hopefully send them on their way on Mon or Tuesday."

 

Here is his really rude response:

"I'd be happy to send you the x-rays so that may send them to whomever you choose. Furthermore I' be happy to refer Luke to whatever institution that you feel will provide the "world-class" care that we are obviously unable to provide.

Regards"

 

W T F ????

 

I wrote back :

"Wow. Not the type of response I was expecting. Sorry you took such

offense, apparently.

 

Anyhow, I want the free consult with OSU because a second opinion

never hurt and also because they will offer Luke a free supply of

doxorubicin, should we go that route and should you advise that as his

type of chemo medicine.

 

Do you have digital copies that you would like to pass on to me or not?

 

Thanks"

 

So, I'm still waiting to hear back. My ex has a business relationship with this vet so my hands are tied as far as telling him to %$^%^%^%^%$%%#.

 

Thought you all might get a kick out of his tantrum, though

 

Twister and Shelby are "whipadors" -- 1/2 whippet (for sure) and probably 1/2 black labrador. They are a bit smaller than greyhounds, about 45 pounds and therefore would be expected to live longer. Twister had lymphoma, not osteo. There are several treatments for lymphoma, one of the most aggressive being the Wisconsin CHOP protocol. It involves giving a different chemo agent every week. Median time of survival is more than a year. Unfortunately, Twister developed kidney failure early on. They were probably starting to fail before the first chemo as OSU said that the types of chemo she had gotten before the kidneys started to fail were not known to be hard on the kidneys. It was probably more that she was an older dog. So we immediately stopped the CHOP protocol after the second week and began the leukeran and prednisone combo. Essentially we went into a mode of managing the lymphoma along with managing the kidney disease. Ultimately, it was the kidney disease that caused me to euthanize her. She didn't show any signs of suffering until her last week. Please note that none of these drugs were meant to treat pain. It was all to treat the actual cancer.

 

Some dogs do have negative reactions to tramadol. Most do not. So just because Fly had so much trouble with it, it doesn't mean that Luke or Clown will have similar reactions. A very common palliative care drug combo for osteo is an NSAID (e.g. deramaxx, rimadyl, etc.), tramadol (in the form of an oral tablet), and gabapentin. If the tramadol causes problems, something else can be prescribed.

 

It is hard for me to believe that the mention of OSU's Greyhound Health and Wellness Program was so threatening to your vet. Even if he didn't realize how prominent they are, it still doesn't explain his snarky response. In case you didn't know, here are some stats on the OSU GHWP: They employ 2 1/2 full time vets who do nothing but greyhound medicine. They do about 2500 greyhound consults per year. Because of the GHWP, the OSU surgeons do, on average, one greyhound leg amputation a week. The GHWP is responsible for some breakthrough research in greyhound medicine and is involved with most greyhound research studies taking place in the US. The GHWP provides no cost repair, rehabilitation and adoption placement for any greyhound injured at the Wheeling, WV racetrack. As you know, the GHWP provides free chemotherapy drugs to any retired racer. Just so you know, it is usually not limited to just doxorubicin. However, there is a major shortage of chemotherapy drugs right now (for humans too) -- this might limit what they can offer.

 

Jane

 

 

 

And please remember, no decision you make is a wrong one. You are making the decision with love in your heart for him. One thing that I think haunts many of us is 2nd guessing ourselves. Did we make the right decision? Did we wait too long? Do it too soon? Was the diagnosis right?

 

There are no wrong answers here.

 

I second, third, fourth ...... etc this statement. Whatever decisions you make out of love for your dogs are the right ones. You know them better than anyone else.

 

Jane

[MaryJane]

Someone mentioned a vet place in Mass - I just wanted to mention that I took my angel Onyx to Angel Memorial in Boston for his osteosarcoma amputation and treatment and I was satisfied with the result although I think (not sure) if I had to do it again I might drive out to OSU. Onyx had quite a bit of bruising after and I think with "today's treatment of this disease" at OSU they would have been controlled the bleeding better with the amicar ... although back when my Onyx went through this no one was using amicar yet.

[Guest Babs]

Hey, Jonathon...I just want to say to you ...isn't this site and the people on it just great. They can relate so easily to what it seems we ALL have gone through one way or the other! A few weeks ago we were burdened with Mac's prognosis... we cried so much we didn't have any tears left..and then Mac or Cleo would do something so funny we forgot for a little while what was going on with him! The stories are so sad, but everybody's holding on to their last hopes. The advice they give is so valuable and wise and I cannot thank them enough for helping me through this! $19,000 or $190,000 spent on Mac is not enough to save his life...I don't feel like a saint for rescuing this beautiful greyhound...he is a part of our family and we love him (and Cleo)...just like everyone else does on this site!

 

As for your vet...find a new one! I would be very leary of any doctor who would question a second opinion and then be so insensitive to a patient and owner!

 

I know sometimes I ramble on trying to explain our situation, and I apologize for that, but you all listened and helped me more than words can express...and for that I thank you from the bottom of my heart!

Hang on to those words, Jonathon and to your beauty for as long as you can!

 

Hugs from

Barbara, Bill,

Mac and Cleo.................