Coddling When Frightened

[XTRAWLD]

I know in general this is a bad practice. The dog will usually repeat the behaviour you DON'T want because you are giving him/her attention. I never do this. My training methods are positive reinforcement, treats and praise.

 

I have had to work with Ryder since we've had him in regards to noise and getting startled on our walks, resulting in extreme pulling. I've done the "immersion" procedure to get him used to sounds (standing near and beside some activity until he calms down, with food rewards and praise - yes for up to an hour because I had the time and the patience to do so). This has worked, rewarding with food and praise has worked. Today on our walk I tried something different.

 

We had a nice walk, everything was going fine, until a Lazy-Boy truck stopped outside of a condo building to unload furniture. We were well out of range of this truck, easily 50 metres and were walking away from it. They put down their loading ramp with a bang and uh oh here we go. Ryder immediately starts pulling desperately trying to walk away from the sound. If he were able to break free he would get loose and run and I likely would never find him again - this is how bad he is when he hears noises. Kasey has zero reaction, but his calm demeanour does nothing to settle Ryder.

 

I kept my speed of pace and we walked to a grassy area while still in view of the truck. I grabbed Ryder and gave him a hug and held him close and secure for 30 seconds to about a minute or two. He had his coat on with a nice liner (and in doing so it reminded me of the Thunder Coat, the one that dogs can wear to make them feel more secure in a storm and less fearful). I gave him a gentle command of "relax" which is my command for working on his startling, and I just held him there, close to me and secure. He turned to look at the truck, as they continued to make some more lower sounding bangs. I felt his body grow less tense while I held him. After I noticed he was more calm, I let go and off we went. He pulled into a perfect walk stride with me as if nothing happened.

 

What gives?

[Batmom]

There's a difference between rewarding fear and, hmm, how to put it, giving support to a frightened dog. Subtle difference at times. You got it right .

[Guest barkdogs]

Yup sounds like you have great instincts. I have an aussie like that--sort of the canine version of an autistic child. Hugging works on him, too.

[Guest greysmitten]

I've always described my girl as "sensitive" - maybe this is a Grey trait? Azi is the only dog I ever hugged who actually enjoyed it and leaned right in. Dogs aren't supposed to "like" hugs, right? Isn't that a human action we've imposed on our poor dogs? Funny how some of them seem to get the same comfort from them as us humans do!

 

I say, if it works in the long run, don't change a thing!

[krissy]

I think a big secure hug is different from coddling. When I tell people not to coddle my dog when he is gun or fireworks phobic I mean don't talk to him in a baby voice and pet him. For this reason I never say "It's okay" when he's worried about something because it is almost impossible to say that phrase in a confident, reassuring way. It will inevitably come out in a baby voice. I'll say something like "What was that!?" because that I can easily say in an upbeat, happy, confident way with no coddling tone to it.

 

If he responds to a hug maybe he would do well with a thundershirt? Summit has one and it does just about nothing for him, but I know some dogs do respond to it.

[Guest KennelMom]

There's a difference between rewarding fear and, hmm, how to put it, giving support to a frightened dog. Subtle difference at times. You got it right .

 

I agree. Not everything with dogs is as black and white as some make it out to be. Shades of grey can be difficult to handle, but it sounds like you got it right I think a lot has to do with the handler's energy that the dog picks up on.

[XTRAWLD]

Yay for me, yay for Ryder!!!

 

Thanks everyone! I'm happy to have "turned a leaf" with more training tools! I just will try not to overuse this method.

[muddgirl]

Dr. Temple Grandin has done a lot of research on what she calls "deep touch" (aka a squeeze) and the stress response in both humans and animals. I think your instinct that a squeeze is similar in concept to a Thundershirt is exactly right.

 

Edited to add: Dr. Grandin defines a deep touch as: "Deep touch pressure is the type of surface pressure that is exerted in most types of firm touching, holding, stroking, petting of animals, or swaddling." A Thundershirt is a type of swaddling cloth.

Edited December 14, 2011 by muddgirl

[christinepi]

I've seen a body wrap (an ace band wrapped around the body in a figure eight) used on llamas and alpacas. These are often pretty skittish creatures. The difference in behavior/level of tension before and after applying the wrap can often be truly astonishing. There's something about that even pressure that can work wonders on a lot of species, it seems.

[JAJ2010]

I think the "ignore when stressed" is a very old school theory. It works with mild nervousness and works fine for Rainy usually. I tried this method for about 3 months with Sunshine and she just escalated the fear more and more.

 

Almost like "Hello I said this is scary, HELLO I said this is scary, HOLY POOP BATMAN WE ARE GOING TO DIE WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO ME!!!!"

 

:lol She increases from nervous to a panic

 

So I did a bunch of research and stroking their chest area is calming and doesn't encourage the fear center of the brain. Sunshine does best when I acknowledge what she is scared of and tell her she is fine. I use the word "fine" since it is easier to say in a matter of a fact confident tone. "Okay" is too easy to drag out the syllables and inflect a sympathetic tone. After a year of her being able to cope with her fears she now looks and gives me eye contact when something scary happens.

 

We just moved into a new place with a yard and a bus rocketed by with a blaring horn, which scared Sunshine. She was out back and I was inside the house 2 rooms away. I heard the bus and looked into the backyard through the sliding glass door and Sunshine had stopped chewing her treat and was frozen. She looked me in the eye and I mouthed "your fine" to her, smiled and nodded. She instantly unfroze and went on her merry chewing way. Now that's impressive improvement for her. I'm so proud of my little scaredy girl!

 

She doesn't really like to be touched when she's scared but is slowly starting to relax enough to enjoy ear rubbies at home. I'm hoping that in another year or so ear rubbies will help her out in the scary world.

 

Basically it varies from dog to dog and you just need to do what works for you People tell me all the time I should stop coddling Sunshine and just ignore her fearful behavior. Like I wasn't smart enough to try that on my own. I just tell them "thanks for the tip but that technique doesn't work for us" Then I go into telling them that she would fear potty every time she saw a stranger when we first brought her home. Compared to that she is normal now!

[Guest sheila]

I've only had one hound that would get truly stressed out over random situations. I used to sing her lullabies. Her favorite was, 'Don't Cry Sister Cry' by JJ Cale. When she would become antsy I would start singing it and I could see her becoming visibly calmer. In fact she often fell asleep by the time I sang the song twice.

[greysmom]

I read an article recently (like in the last year) in a vet magazine about this. The author described it as if you were to hear/see a very frightened 2 or 3 year old child. If you see a toddler that has suffered a fright, your natural urge is to hold the child and comfort them. The child knows he isn't being rewarded for crying and/or being scared, he knows he feels more secure and less afraid. While a dog might not "know" this in the same way that a human child would, it does know the difference between reward vs comforting.

 

In my own experience, my spook won't accept treats of any kind when she is afraid/anxious about whatever. But I can speak to her soothigly (not baby-talk) and rub her ears and chest. It can take her 20 minutes or more, but she will relax eventually.

[kudzu]

One thing to ponder is that you perhaps are even conditioning him that those scary Lazy-Boys may actually be good things. You helped him calm down & relax in their presence. So even if he were to view this as a reward, which I seriously doubt from your description, it could be a reward for relaxing in the presence of a stressor.

[Feisty49]

I read an article recently (like in the last year) in a vet magazine about this. The author described it as if you were to hear/see a very frightened 2 or 3 year old child. If you see a toddler that has suffered a fright, your natural urge is to hold the child and comfort them. The child knows he isn't being rewarded for crying and/or being scared, he knows he feels more secure and less afraid. While a dog might not "know" this in the same way that a human child would, it does know the difference between reward vs comforting.

 

 

That's exactly how I feel and what I do. While I'm still learning Annie Bella's personality (it will be 5 months tomorrow that I adopted her), I know when she needs assurance that the world isn't ending just as I know my 5-1/2 year old granddaughter needs assurance that there are no monsters in the hallway.

 

Not all advice for training and behavior applies to all dogs in all situations. For instance, I was told not to make a fuss over Annie Bella when I returned from an outing. The result was she didn't leave her bed when I walked in the back door and ignored me. Well, I missed her and wanted her to know so I started making a gentle fuss with the result that when I come home, she comes into the kitchen doorway, smiles and wags her tail. I know the reason for not making a fuss is so the dog doesn't get too excited and start jumping, etc., but Annie Bella is not a dog who gets excited or jumps. She's calm and placid so making a fuss taught her it's OK to welcome me back to the pack, albeit with just a tail wag.

[silverfish]

There's a difference between rewarding fear and, hmm, how to put it, giving support to a frightened dog. Subtle difference at times. You got it right .

 

Yep!

 

Dogs aren't supposed to "like" hugs, right? Isn't that a human action we've imposed on our poor dogs? Funny how some of them seem to get the same comfort from them as us humans do!

 

 

Dogs don't hug, among themselves. Dogs learn to accept hugs from humans they trust. We have to teach them that hugs are good, and I do this by touching a new adoptee a lot - a quick, light stroke in passing, putting a hand on their shoulder briefly when I talk to them, massaging their backs and sides and shoulders and thighs (greyhounds are used to being massaged anyway), and I progress to longer, firmer touches, and give them short belly rubs while they're standing. I never hold the contact longer than they're comfortable with, and at first the touches are fleeting so they don't have time to wonder if they like it before it's over.

 

In time, I can lean across a dog's shoulders, with one arm through their front legs and the other along the belly (on the opposite side of the dog to me), and give them a firm, close hug. Once you can do that, a dog is a LOT less likely to take offence at you moving or touching them on the sofa, or object to you leaning over them by accident. It takes time to build the trust, but it's well worth doing before you try to push the dog into anything, like training them to do things they don't much like (drop, leave, even toothbrushing).

 

Ranger had a tendency to growl at me when we first got him, and rush about like a headless chicken when he didn't know what else to do (like when I wanted to clean the ulcer in his mouth or give him a pill). It was this hug, I believe, that got him to the point where he could relax. I can now brush his teeth with no problems whatsoever, and give him pills when necessary, without bribery or fuss.

 

It's also - as you've discovered - VERY useful in stressful situations. I always use the touch on the shoulder to indicate to my dogs that a noise (like your loud truck, or rubbish blowing in the road) is OK.

 

All this is very different from the 'oh, poor dog' whiny coddling some people do. I believe that THAT is what can make them worse.

[Guest FullMetalFrank]

I don't coddle my dogs for ordinary situations that they might not like; but no one is going to tell me not to offer them comfort and support when they are genuinely scared or hurt. Something startled Chelsa the other day and she ran into a baby gate that leans up against a bookcase when not in use; it fell on her and she was screaming in terror. I got to her in a nano-second and she retreated to her spot on the couch and was literally shaking like a leaf. I sat and talked quietly to her and held her for a few minutes until she settled down. She's not a timid dog or a drama queen; she was just really scared and my letting her know that I was there for her was what she needed.

[Brandiandwe]

I'd just like to thank everyone for this thread. I've been trying to manage two dogs who respond differently to other dogs. Both scared, but one tends to go forwards aggressively, the other back (or in front of me, growling and trying t 'protect' me. From the elderly fluff ball who hasn't even noticed we're there). We are making slow progress, but today I managed to stop the high pitched whine and quivering at the sight of another dog by giving a hug and repeating 'you're fine'. We got no barking, growling, lunging, pulling or anything. A minute later, the other dog was no longer and issue for either of mine and we could continue with our walk.

 

Thank you all so much.

[Guest borzoix4]

There's a difference between rewarding fear and, hmm, how to put it, giving support to a frightened dog. Subtle difference at times. You got it right .

I am working on this fine balence with Maura now. She does 'function' well, but if anything is different, or falls out of " routine', she does the frightened " freeze". I wait until she relaxes even if subtile, but still not quite sure if this helps or not.

Sometimes I see a response if in a similar situation, say if a poker drops when I am putting wood in the woodstove, she previously bolted out of the room first time it happened. ( ie flight reflex) Now if something bumps like say putting wood down on the rack for the next burn, she will go to the edge of the room and stands there. She waits for me to say " opps- that was a noise huh?" or something similar, then returns to her couch.

All I can say is that it seems to be just a understanding of words of ' something made noise but its gone now.."

[Guest iconsmum]

I know in general this is a bad practice. The dog will usually repeat the behaviour you DON'T want because you are giving him/her attention. I never do this. My training methods are positive reinforcement, treats and praise.

 

I have had to work with Ryder since we've had him in regards to noise and getting startled on our walks, resulting in extreme pulling. I've done the "immersion" procedure to get him used to sounds (standing near and beside some activity until he calms down, with food rewards and praise - yes for up to an hour because I had the time and the patience to do so). This has worked, rewarding with food and praise has worked. Today on our walk I tried something different.

 

We had a nice walk, everything was going fine, until a Lazy-Boy truck stopped outside of a condo building to unload furniture. We were well out of range of this truck, easily 50 metres and were walking away from it. They put down their loading ramp with a bang and uh oh here we go. Ryder immediately starts pulling desperately trying to walk away from the sound. If he were able to break free he would get loose and run and I likely would never find him again - this is how bad he is when he hears noises. Kasey has zero reaction, but his calm demeanour does nothing to settle Ryder.

 

I kept my speed of pace and we walked to a grassy area while still in view of the truck. I grabbed Ryder and gave him a hug and held him close and secure for 30 seconds to about a minute or two. He had his coat on with a nice liner (and in doing so it reminded me of the Thunder Coat, the one that dogs can wear to make them feel more secure in a storm and less fearful). I gave him a gentle command of "relax" which is my command for working on his startling, and I just held him there, close to me and secure. He turned to look at the truck, as they continued to make some more lower sounding bangs. I felt his body grow less tense while I held him. After I noticed he was more calm, I let go and off we went. He pulled into a perfect walk stride with me as if nothing happened.

 

What gives?

 

 

 

Well then the "immersion technique" didn't work. Usually referred to as "flooding", it forces the dog to stay in range of what is scaring it until it appears to calm down. What really happens is that the dog is so bombarded by its adrenalin dump at the same time as it's being restrained from flight that it gets quietly traumatized and averts; which almost looks like acceptance if you didn't know the difference. This is something you can see on tv sometimes as "the" trainer is trying to palm it off to the owners as a fix or a cure for fright. If it had truly reconditioned the dog, there would be no reaction to unexpected or unidentified noise at all - that "calm acceptance" thing is a crock - take the leash off and watch where the dog goes...it'll be away.

The way to recondition the fear is to stay outside of the range that produces any reaction at all, but within sight....and feed, feed, feed. Then in increments that are really tiny, you come closer but still before there is a reaction...feed feed feed. This can go on for days or weeks, depending on the level of dread the dog's experiencing. That way you're setting up a firm connection in the dog between the visual or audio and the food - since food is a primary reinforcer, it guarantees you a permanent connection - which is why you have to be careful not to blow it by pushing too fast. and moving into a range the dog can't tolerate ..it works for leash reactive dogs, growly dogs, scared dogs, you name it - it just takes patience and really fabulous treats. If you think your dog isn't food motivated, then you skip his meal so he's hungry....they're all food motivated to a degree (or they'd be dead ) But honestly, forcing him to be within tight range of what he has a basic fear of is like holding a height-sensitive you out over the edge of a balcony and waiting till you stop fidgeting to conclude that you're fixed.

[kudzu]

Her description did not come across to me as flooding. If anything Ryder was already flooded by the time she knew what was happening & then she took him further away before stopping to reassure him. No, it was not totally out of range but in this instance any hope of doing things as you describe was already lost.

 

She could attempt to do this sort of thing in the future but she would have to know when the truck or some similar set up would be there. Then it would need to be repeated so she'd need to know again. Not that easy. Best chance I can think of is knowing when the sanitation truck comes to empty a dumpster. That would be something to try. Of course the general approach can be used for more common, predictable &, best case, easily reproducible scary situations. So its still good info if she didn't already know it.

 

On the whole though, I think it sounds like her approach worked out well for Ryder in this particular circumstance.

[Guest iconsmum]

To recondition, you need a controlled stimulus, sorry if I wasn't clear enough; so a construction site that's not going anywhere or a cement truck pouring for a couple of hours, is what you need to use. That way you control proximity while you work. Surprise noises are a problem while you recondition because they reinforce the original problem, in this case fear, so it has you working against yourself for that time period. Allowing a rehearsal of the original behaviour constitutes a setback, that's for sure. The problem with "reassuring" him is that you're rewarding the flight away - it's the same as sympathizing with a dog that's upset about the approach of another dog. You're confirming in the dog's mind that he's correct in his fear reaction because mummy's praising him him. ...touch, voice, etc... It's part of the challenge of de- and re- conditioning. that you need to find a reliable souurce of the cause of the anxiety/maybe trauma When you're done with the fixed site, you are right up close and unconcerned. That's when you carefuly introduce "surprises" - but even they're controlled surprises and those become relatively more random, but still "safe" random. The result of all this...longish, ,,...process is a bombproof dog that we can use in nursing homes, hospitals, or on a calm walk downtown...if the dog experiences a random scary noise, his ability to settle comes from within because you've instilled it

[silverfish]

I think you have to be careful what you label 'coddling' and 'reassuring'.

 

If you remain completely calm while touching your dog gently but firmly on the shoulder to let him know you're there and you're not frightened and if you keep your voice low and slow and not high-pitched and staccato, or overly sugary-sympathetic, then you're simply doing what animal mothers do naturally with their young.

 

Dogs do use nose-touches to communicate with their pups, and the noises they make when calm are lower than the high-pitched noises they make when excited or upset for any reason. If it's OK to use DAP solutions to reassure dogs by mimicking the appeasing hormones, why isn't it OK to use calm, fleeting touch, and low-pitched voice? I think it is, and I think it works really well.

 

If your dog responds to a firm hug in a stressful situation by becoming calm and less fearful, I'd do it. Might be worth also rewarding with food or a clicker when he or she is remaining calm without the hug, but that comes under the heading of ongoing training. Also (in my opinion) you need to release the dog at exactly the right moment, and without ANY further fuss or reassurance simply continue with what you were doing when the crisis arose.

 

I look at it this way: it's certainly true that you don't want to reward fearful behaviour, and you don't want to allow your dog to get to 'overwhelmed panic' level of their fear reaction. So, what are you going to do if a frightening thing occurs suddenly (I'm remembering my Renie when she first came home and freaked out when a bus went by in the street). If you know your dog is about to leap into the air and buck out of their martingale in sheer panic?

 

Well, to my mind, the best thing to do is avoid that if at all possible, because that surely will become embedded in their heads and associated with the source of the fear, especially if the bucking etc results in them becoming a lot further away and with their human companion screeching and panicking themselves. So, IMHO a firm hug accompanied by a very quiet, relaxed voice at this point is 100% better than hanging onto the end of a leash with a panic-stricken dog spinning on the other (or worse, an escaped dog) and both your hearts pounding out of your chests.

[kudzu]

The problem with "reassuring" him is that you're rewarding the flight away - it's the same as sympathizing with a dog that's upset about the approach of another dog. You're confirming in the dog's mind that he's correct in his fear reaction because mummy's praising him him. ...touch, voice, etc...

While that can certainly happen, in fact I'm sure we've all seen examples of it over & over, I simply do not agree that what the OP describes is a definite example of it for a variety of reasons. The situation you describe is not that clear cut. I realize you are probably making a generalization & am not arguing that it can happen but it is not so black & white. Since none of the rest of us saw the event I do not believe we can say what she was doing was rewarding the dog for acting afraid. Besides, even if we thought so what we think isn't what matters. It is how Ryder perceived the event that makes the difference.

 

There is coddling & then there is offering your dog a positive situation that helps them feel better about the scary thing. And there are times like now that we will just have to agree to disagree & leave it at that. The OP seems bright enough, perceptive enough to make an intelligent decision with the varying info that has been provided so I'll leave it at that.

[philospher77]

And just to throw my 2 cents in: You can not reinforce fear. No one wants to feel scared. You can, inadvertently, reinforce behavior that is shown when the dog is fearful. But if you can change the underlying fear state, then you can work on altering any behavior you may have reinforced without meaning to.

 

And for a reference, because I just think that this is an amazing example of counter-conditioning and why it flies in the face of what most people think: Dr. Yin counter-conditioning an aggressive dog. http://youtu.be/sI13v9JgJu0

 

This is an example of an aggressive case, but the same idea holds for fear cases.

[silverfish]

That's great! Thanks for the link!