Growling

[Guest HannahWEdwards]

STANS HISTORY

When my 5yr old son and me went to a kennel for retired racing greyhounds. We specifically asked for a child friendly family fun dog. We were shown Stan a beautiful grey greyhound who is huge 33kg dog.

He had been housed for 2 weeks in a family of 5 kids and it broke down due to his separation anxiety. For the first month (out of two) he was just scared all the time so we didn’t see the warning signs that he was uncomfortable. He then started to growl a lot (mostly at my son when he wanted to hug me and the dog was near me). We are paying for professional help and doing a lot of positive association with treats and kids and men and all the things he seems uncomfortable with. The big problem is we have only had him 2 months and two weeks ago we found out that our adopted son may have a 2.5 year old sibling girl who may come to live with us soon and if we are wondering when we are being unfair to the dog and us letting this situation continue. He is a fantastic dog apart from using growls a lot!

 

SITUATIONS

I was laying down on the decking - invited the dog for a cuddle. Eventually he put his paw on me with the head down on top. Then Teegan came for a cuddle and dog immediately growled …I ignored at first and said NOOO in a Fear of God way and then my son got upset so I separated myself from dog (scooping son up).

 

Stan was let off in the park muzzled with another new greyhound friend. My son came up to them both and Stan growled at my son - the other dog then growled at Stan!

 

At the restaurant outside on concrete floor I put a mat down for Stan and moved the mat slightly and he growled (this has happened 2x before and once at my husband and me when we moved a lead from under him). I say OI STAN! you don’t need to do that!

 

Playing with sticks with son and dog (first time playing together - all good) - While dog was on floor my son offers a stick that he chews for a bit then son gives him another one takes the other one back and big old growl comes out. I go OI! really loadly walk him into his kennel close the door he sees me and teegan chat for a bit then we go outside. Stan crys and barks. After 5 mins we come in Teegan opens crate door then we go upstairs where he can’t follow.

 

In our house we invited guests over. We were all in the sitting room Stan insists on laying in front of the sofa and when this dog friendly man strokes him he gives a big old growl. I take him out and leave him telling him off a bit.

 

Outside school a man who owns a greyhound is stroking stan and after a few minutes a big old growl....

 

Normally our dog is very affectionate to me and even my husband. What can we do that we are not doing and has anyone ever resolved this level of growling... how worried should we be. Stan has amazing bite inhibition and gentleness usually (though clumsy).

[greysmom]

A lot of what happens next will depend on how committed you are to working through Stan's issues, and keeping everyone safe in the meantime. It only takes one bite for a situation to become very, very bad for everyone involved. If you truly feel Stan is not going to work out in your home, you're best course of action will be to return him before this happens.

 

On the other hand.......

 

Some generalities: It sounds like you're doing most things right. Stan has not been in your house very long and he could still be feeling his way into settling down and being a loving family member. He's guarding his resources (including you), and hasn't learned everything he needs to yet. Consistency and patience will be your best tools.

 

Five years old (and definitely 2 1/2 yo) might be too young to have that level of interaction with an iffy resource-guarding dog. Your son should not be giving and taking away high value treats from Stan (at least at this point). He shouldn't be rolling around on the floor playing with Stan or Stan's toys. A good rule to teach the child is to never touch the dog when he's laying down on his bed or eating anything - period. Better safe than sorry. I would also separate my interactions with son from interactions with dog. Gradually, as behavior indicates, you can start doing quiet things together - sit on the floor and read a book or watch a favorite show - and increase the time increments slowly.

 

Stan sounds wary of strangers, particularly men. Keep positive interactions short and upbeat, gradually lengthening them as he grows more acustomed to social situations. Watch him for when he's had anough and gently move him behind you or away for a time out.

 

For me, and others will disagree, there's a big difference between growling because the dog is truly anxious and/or scared, and growling to just be talking. One gets the dog removed from the stressful situation, the other gets corrected. Growling is a dog's only way of letting you know how he's feeling, so pay attention to when and how it happens. Again, in my opinion, bites from dogs are the fault of the people involved and not the dog (usually), and most of them could be avoided completely by timely intervention, proper training, and vigilant supervision.

 

Hopefully, someone with kids will chime in and give you other options and opinions.

[JJNg]

I thought greysmom's response was excellent. I don't have kids, so will leave any specific advice in that area to those who have personal experience. However, I did want to comment on growling in general.

 

Many people seem to see growling as a threat that dogs shouldn't be allowed to display. However, growling is simply a form of communication, a way of expressing fear and discomfort with a particular situation or interaction. To 'correct' growling without addressing the underlying fear that triggered it can potentially lead to a dog who escalates to biting without giving any warning. I think it's wonderful that Stan growls to express his discomfort and hasn't snapped or bitten. This shows tremendous restraint and very appropriate communication from a canine perspective.

 

Prior to even growling, most dogs communicate stress and discomfort with subtle body language, using signs that Norwegian dog trainer Turid Rugaas calls calming signals. Learning to recognize calming signals can help you avoid situations that cause your dog to be stressed and keep it from getting to the point of triggering a growl. Here's a good article on calming signals, and if you decide to commit to working with Stan, I would also recommend Turid Rugaas's book and DVD on calming signals.

 

We specifically asked for a child friendly family fun dog. We were shown Stan a beautiful grey greyhound who is huge 33kg dog.

He had been housed for 2 weeks in a family of 5 kids and it broke down due to his separation anxiety. For the first month (out of two) he was just scared all the time so we didn’t see the warning signs that he was uncomfortable.

I have to wonder why the adoption group felt that a dog with separation anxiety and issues with fear and insecurity (ie. "scared all the time") would be a good choice for a family with young children... That said, many greyhounds make a complete turn-around once they've had a chance to settle in and adjust to life in a home.

 

Dogs who are new to a situation, especially if they have experienced a lot of recent changes and stress, are more likely to growl over things that make them uncomfortable. Most dogs become more tolerant of the same triggers and less reactive after they've had time to bond, learn to trust, and become secure in their new environment. So this may just be part of the adjustment period, but you'll have to use careful management and vigilance to prevent any negative interactions. This is essential to keeping your children and strangers safe, as well as give Stan a chance to learn that he will be kept safe too.

 

At this point, being petted by a stranger when he is lying down may be more than he can handle. A dog who is lying down is in a vulnerable position, and may not be comfortable with being approached or touched, especially by someone they don't know. Also, most people who pet a dog who is lying down lean over the dog and don't realize that this posture can be intimidating for the dog.

 

My girl Willow was very shy (what they call a 'spook' at the track), but she's a completely different dog now who will approach strangers for attention. However, the one situation where I don't trust her with strangers, especially men, is if they try to approach her when she's lying down. On a couple of occasions, she's jumped up and snapped at men who walked up and bent over her when she was lying down. However, if I see the man approaching and get Willow to stand up first, she will greet him nicely and approach to be petted.

[Dawnnziggy]

I have a DS who absolutely loves our dogs. When we got Dawn, our first grey, he was only 6 years old. She also growled a lot. I had dogs growing up so I tried to tell my family that was her way of letting us know she was uncomfortable with something. She did not like to be petted while on her bed. After finding this board, all of you reinforced that idea. She also was very wary of men, including our DS. I suspect her trainer was a man. She will not allow strange men to approach her at all. I just tell them that she is uncomfortable with men and most of them are all right with it. It took us about a year for everyone to be okay with her. My DH was talking about returning her but we are all so glad that we just waited it out because she is a "sweatpea" now. She sleeps on her bed in our DS's bedroom every night. When there are storms, she looks for him and if he is in bed she will lay right beside his bed. She looks out for him and his presence comforts her. What really helped her though was getting the second grey. He taught her that attention wasn't a bad thing. I know that probably isn't an option but that really helped her. Our second is very laid back and sweet. That is probably what you needed with your family. I also wonder why they gave you this hound.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do!

 

Sorry this was so long!

[MaryJane]

The previous posts already provided very good answers - the only thing I am going to mention is that you probably need to be realistic in whether you are going to be able to work with Stan to resolve the issues while you are also getting a little girl who will also likely need an adjustment period (Congratulations on the sibling). Both of these will be quite a bit on your plate, not impossible .. just quite a bit.

 

The growling can be a warning that a bite is coming if the issue causing the growling is not resolved quickly enough. But, to your credit -- it seems that you have been right on top of that and are able to spot potential issues very quickly and as a result have handled all the situations well.

 

As to your question about how worried you should be -- you are very aware of his space/men/possession issues so you are more likely to be careful when doing "certain things". Contrast that with a very friendly dog (not necessarily a greyhound) that never growls and suddenly bites a child. When you have dogs, you have bites and having a dog that growls does not necessarily mean that he will bite and having a dog that never growls does not necessarily mean that he will never bite.

[Guest HannahWEdwards]

I just want to say a very very big thank you to all these replies. Its all food for thought and all very sane and considered responses.

 

The only thing I wasn't sure is from Dawnziggy what a DS or a DH is. I will keep you posted on progress.

 

Hannah

[Batmom]

DS = dear son, DH = dear husband

[GeorgeofNE]

I also wondered what made your adoption group think this particular dog was right for a home with small children after already failing to do well in another.

 

Greysmom's response was terrific, and I don't have much to add beyond saying my dog was extremely sleep aggressive when I first got him. He would NOT have been a good dog to have around a child--but four years later, it's all but disappeared, so your guy MAY change as time goes by.

[JohnF]

I can see you've been trying really hard with that dog and the bonding is almost in place. However not every dog gets to make it easily into a forever home and some bounce a couple of times. The growling could be a 'gimme space please' request, or it might be 'leave me be or else' demand. This is where I think you need a qualified trainer/behaviourist to work it out for you. If they recon it is the latter then the dog needs to be returned for everyone's safety.

For now take a quick read of Turid Rugass' 'Calming Singnals' article in the link so you can get a better idea of what your dog is 'saying' and even reply in kind.

http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1

[Guest HannahWEdwards]

Thanks again people.

My gut instinct (and hope) is that its a 'Gimme Space Please' command. Its not snarly and rarely accompanies a head turn to the hand that is touching him. It's just odd because yesterday a lady he didn't know came to our home and made a fuss out of him. He was all excited and happy and lapping up the strokes and attention. Then he got on the sofa that he lays on while I work (at home) and looked cute while she sat on the arm of the sofa and really stroked him all over - then he growled a big gutteral growl as it probably got too intense for him. I got him off the sofa and put him in my bedroom for a bit - he whined immediately to come out and after about 10 minutes I did let him come bounding back to the woman for strokes (banning sofa this time).

 

It is basically hard to read Stan's calming signals (thanks for that link) and if I acted on every slight feeling I had that he may be uncomfortable I would be very stressed about people touching him without treats. I think he actually misses a few in between stages and gets straight to the growl.

 

Anyway, doing some T touch training techniques tomorrow with a prof trainer to learn how to build 'new neural pathways' we hope - to give him more options than growling, got a Thundershirt. Hope we can manage this as the dog is beautiful and gentle and sweet.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

In my opinion growling is totally acceptable. Dogs communicate in three ways, first-body language (subtle eye shifts, looking away, yawning, licking lips, etc.), if we as ignorant humans don't accept and honor this attempt at communication then the hound moves to growling. Should you ignore this, the next step is an "air snap" (no contact, but is sure is scary), and finally actual contact should you not honor the air snap.

 

Ok, so knowing this, why would you remove one step of the safety net for your family and hound? Obviously the body language is not obvious enough, so remove the growling, what does your hound have left? Air snap, let me tell you, air snaps are the dog equivalent of the Voice of God.

 

What I think you need to concentrate on is the "cause" of the growling, not to try to circumvent his natural communication. If he is growling, why? Is he uncomfortable, is he trying to guard a resource? From your short explanations, it seems like he is having his personal space invaded and it is making him uncomfortable. But I am not a behaviorist, and I don't really know the entire interaction to be able to really say what is going on. Why don't you try enrolling your boy in an obedience class, this will build your bond and at the same time give him some confidence in your leadership. I would not allow your child to "cuddle" with the hound. I would also not allow the hound any furniture privileges for many months. My first boy was a bit growly for the first 6 months we had him, but it was all a matter of building a trustful relationship between all family members.

[Guest LindsaySF]

Then he got on the sofa that he lays on while I work (at home) and looked cute while she sat on the arm of the sofa and really stroked him all over - then he growled a big gutteral growl as it probably got too intense for him. I got him off the sofa and put him in my bedroom for a bit - he whined immediately to come out and after about 10 minutes I did let him come bounding back to the woman for strokes (banning sofa this time).

I have a dog that defends the couch also. (And will also growl at me if I pet him or sit down next to him on his dog bed). He's not allowed on the sofa, and I use treats to get him up off the floor (no grabbing the collar).

 

Some dogs get better with this in time, some are always this way (must always be vigilant, no couch privileges, etc). Always supervise the kids around the dog, because kids don't always realize they shouldn't pet a dog that is laying down or sleeping. In my experience dogs with space aggression are not good matches for homes with young children. Good luck.

Edited July 13, 2011 by LindsaySF

[Guest Liz_in_PA]

I have a grumbler dog. For the first 6 months, he growled at many things. I think it was fear and getting bounced from two homes. He still growls at things but many times, it's just a token grumble. He's my curmudgeon dog.

 

But always think of Teegan's safety first. I wonder if Stan is afraid of Teegan? Teach Teegan those calming signals and ask him to help you identify them.