Bald Bum...and Getting Balder?

[Batmom]

So you have tested your dogs' melatonin level and know whether it's normal or not?

 

I find it odd that people would give an unregulated (and therefore of unknown actual content/purity) hormone with unknown longterm side effects (and some known, potentially deleterious short-term side effects, especially in sighthounds) to change what may be a useful seasonal or activity-oriented adaptation for the dog. And all in the name of appearance rather than health.

 

How very bizarre.

[tbhounds]

Bizarre pretty much sums it up.

[Guest RichardUK]

The only bizarre thing I find is the apparent double standards shown.

 

I am giving Melatonin to see if it will redress a condition of fur loss - which is neither "a useful seasonal or activity-oriented adaptation for the dog" - I do know greyhounds - been looking after them for many years - if there was other symptoms I would not do so - but it is fur loss. If melatonin is given to counteract Hypothyroidism by vets then there is little difference to giving Rimadyl for pain. It would reduce any level of Hypothyroidism just as Rimadyl reduces inflammation. It is not unregulated but fit for human consumption.

 

I still find it laughable this emphasis on appearance when I see all those pet greyhounds dressed up!!! Of course that's not for appearance is it? Or those chopped tails or cropped ears - or those dyed pink dogs - They are not for appearance?? Frankly you are free to ignore your dog's bizarre bald appearance all you want - I want my dog to look like a fully furred greyhound!

 

I want a dog if possible that causes people to stop me in the street and say "what a beautiful dog how can I get one?" NOT "poor doggie why is he bald - has it got mange or was it burnt or something".

 

For your information I have already spoken to my vet about the use of Melatonin and he DID NOT OBJECT - but why should I bother to explain?

[tbhounds]

It seems rather usless to reply to someone whom feels hypothyroidism is treated with melatonin. I still don't see how you can equate placing a pretty collar or the likes to giving a medication to your hounds.

Your replies make absoultely no common sense. Wishing all the bestt with your hounds.

Edited June 12, 2011 by tbhounds

[greyhead]

I tried giving Timo melatonin to grow his chest hair back, but it gave him bad diarrhea, so I had to stop. His chest definitely has less hair than when we first adopted him. :-( he's lost some hair on his bum, too. But, he refuses to sleep on a bed, and he really only likes a pillow for his head and arms. He likes the rest of his body on the floor. Goos thing we have carpet. In his crate, he moves all his bedding to one side, so that his bum is on the plastic pan....

Spencer has IBD and takes an immunosuppressant to deal with that, the side effect of which was hair loss. The internist wouldn't let me try melatonin to get his hair back. Apparently it can have a negative effect on the tummy. We can't take chances since IBD is a big deal. But in the absence of that kind of problem, it might be that starting slow with a low dose and gradually increasing would work okay for Timo.

 

ETA: Spencer is hypothyroid too. Changing from generic medicine to Soloxine did result in hair growth in spite of the immunosuppressant. Lots of people swear by Soloxine as the best thyroid treatment when hair loss is a big part of the picture. Though it doesn't sound like this is Timo's situation, I thought I'd mention it for others.

Edited June 12, 2011 by greyhead

[greyhead]

The only bizarre thing I find is the apparent double standards shown.

 

I am giving Melatonin to see if it will redress a condition of fur loss - which is neither "a useful seasonal or activity-oriented adaptation for the dog" - I do know greyhounds - been looking after them for many years - if there was other symptoms I would not do so - but it is fur loss. If melatonin is given to counteract Hypothyroidism by vets then there is little difference to giving Rimadyl for pain. It would reduce any level of Hypothyroidism just as Rimadyl reduces inflammation. It is not unregulated but fit for human consumption.

 

I still find it laughable this emphasis on appearance when I see all those pet greyhounds dressed up!!! Of course that's not for appearance is it? Or those chopped tails or cropped ears - or those dyed pink dogs - They are not for appearance?? Frankly you are free to ignore your dog's bizarre bald appearance all you want - I want my dog to look like a fully furred greyhound!

 

I want a dog if possible that causes people to stop me in the street and say "what a beautiful dog how can I get one?" NOT "poor doggie why is he bald - has it got mange or was it burnt or something".

 

For your information I have already spoken to my vet about the use of Melatonin and he DID NOT OBJECT - but why should I bother to explain?

I'm so sorry some people are being so rude to you! I don't see anything untoward in what you've said. Your posts are being nit-picked. You never said that melatonin should be used to counteract or treat hypothyroidism. You said "if vets use it" for that purpose, etc. I've been caught up in my own dog dramas for days or I would have shown up here sooner. Sorry.

[Guest RichardUK]

The only bizarre thing I find is the apparent double standards shown.

 

I am giving Melatonin to see if it will redress a condition of fur loss - which is neither "a useful seasonal or activity-oriented adaptation for the dog" - I do know greyhounds - been looking after them for many years - if there was other symptoms I would not do so - but it is fur loss. If melatonin is given to counteract Hypothyroidism by vets then there is little difference to giving Rimadyl for pain. It would reduce any level of Hypothyroidism just as Rimadyl reduces inflammation. It is not unregulated but fit for human consumption.

 

I still find it laughable this emphasis on appearance when I see all those pet greyhounds dressed up!!! Of course that's not for appearance is it? Or those chopped tails or cropped ears - or those dyed pink dogs - They are not for appearance?? Frankly you are free to ignore your dog's bizarre bald appearance all you want - I want my dog to look like a fully furred greyhound!

 

I want a dog if possible that causes people to stop me in the street and say "what a beautiful dog how can I get one?" NOT "poor doggie why is he bald - has it got mange or was it burnt or something".

 

For your information I have already spoken to my vet about the use of Melatonin and he DID NOT OBJECT - but why should I bother to explain?

I'm so sorry some people are being so rude to you! I don't see anything untoward in what you've said. Your posts are being nit-picked. You never said that melatonin should be used to counteract or treat hypothyroidism. You said "if vets use it" for that purpose, etc. I've been caught up in my own dog dramas for days or I would have shown up here sooner. Sorry.

 

Thanks Greyhead -

 

But I used to be a teacher and am quite used to making allowance for the inept. People like you allow me to regain my composure

Edited June 12, 2011 by RichardUK

[Batmom]

The cause of bald thighs in greyhounds hasn't been established. We can't say whether it's abnormal, normal, or a useful adaptation.

 

Simply because some people prefer furry thighs, it doesn't follow that nonfurry thighs must be abnormal. Perhaps it's the other way around.

 

 

 

[tbhounds]

This inept person would like to know the name of the vet that treats hypothyroidism with melatonin.

Look we are all fighting the same battle-- it's my point that ANY supplement (esp) one that needs a script to purchase should be prescribed or discussed by your vet not just accepted as safe by some folks whom you don't know from an Internet board. Is melatonin safe???-- most likely -- would I give it to my hound just to grow hair- no, unless it was medically needed. Perhaps education is needed with the public that scorns your bald butted hounds-- I dunno

know.

[greyhoundgang]

Melatonin is usually used for stress reduction in dogs, and in humans to help them sleep.

 

Couple of articles doing a search:

Melatonin Side Effects

Vet Info

 

For loss of hair, I use Grizzly Wild Salmon Oil. Just 3 - 4 pumps a day on food. Dogs love it, really easy to give and helps with immune and skin issues. My dogs get it every day.

 

I've also successfully used Azmira's Mega Pet Daily vitaminsto help hair grow in balder areas.

 

I also believe a high quality food (raw feeding here) helps too.

[seeh2o]

In addition - Melatonin is a very cheap solution in comparison to Hypothyroid tests (around $1500 here) If it works - no tests required.

 

Please, please, please don't stop doing the thyroid tests, they are essential. Some dogs only outward symptom of hypothyroidism is baldness and the use of melatonin may mask that. I know, Carl's only outward sign was being very very bald. His blood tests showed he was on the low end of normal, but it wasn't until he developed eye problems that he was diagnosed as hypothyroid. While he was on the low end of normal for a greyhound, it wasn't normal for him and he developed the eye problem.

 

I think the use of melatonin should be the owner's decision, not made by the adoption group.

[Batmom]

There wouldn't be a reason to test dogs for hypothyroidism on the basis of bald thighs only. It's been well established that the two aren't correlated. That means that a dog with a furry butt is as likely to be hypothyroid as a dog with a bald butt. Giving extra thyroid hormone, whether needed or not, is likely to make a dog grow more hair -- hair growth following oral thyroid supplementation isn't an indication that the thyroid supplement was needed.

[Guest RichardUK]

In addition - Melatonin is a very cheap solution in comparison to Hypothyroid tests (around $1500 here) If it works - no tests required.

 

Please, please, please don't stop doing the thyroid tests, they are essential. Some dogs only outward symptom of hypothyroidism is baldness and the use of melatonin may mask that. I know, Carl's only outward sign was being very very bald. His blood tests showed he was on the low end of normal, but it wasn't until he developed eye problems that he was diagnosed as hypothyroid. While he was on the low end of normal for a greyhound, it wasn't normal for him and he developed the eye problem.

 

I think the use of melatonin should be the owner's decision, not made by the adoption group.

 

In all honesty it never entered my mind to stop doing thyroid tests - except here the simple blood diagnosis of hypothyroidism is often over-diagnosed for greyhounds - The full test costs around $1500 here over several days

 

The dogs that come into our kennels are usually healthy and active and have a full vet check - some (a very few) have bald butts usually due to the stress of racing which disappears or reduces rapidly during our one month assessment time - but this is normally an absolute maximum of around a hand spread on each cheek - usually less. They do not have any other symptom. This is not a massive amount of hair loss - If it was the dog would be examined by a fully experience - fully qualified - greyhound specialists. We have loads of them - we have six tracks close to where our kennels are - there are far more tracks (five times as many) comparatively in the UK than the US. So a low dose of Melatonin is very unlikely to do any harm - Any dog undergoing any treatment will be examined by at least three very experienced greyhound people with a combined experience of over 100 years of greyhound care,

 

We are the owners of the dog - the adopter is the adopter and does not own the dog. They are the custodian only.

 

BUT IF my test on MY DOG is POSITIVE in a month - then I will share my experience with adopters if they ask - just like this topic started.

 

= = = = = = = =

Finally as far as I'm concerned (and this is NOT aimed at you) - A greyhound is abnormal if it has a bald butt - because all normal healthy pups have a full butt of fur - we breed them at the kennels - 100s of them - the vast vast majority of them grow up to maturity with full butt of fur I've seen 1000s of them - they then die at around 11 to 16 with a full butt of fur - I receive 100s of photos of ancient greyhounds for the newsletter. - That is normal - a full butt of fur. That for the disbelievers are the facts.

 

Now if in the US the vast majority of greyhounds have bald butts then that would be the normal for the US NOT for the UK. But I seriously doubt it because I would have heard about years ago - and I haven't.

 

And As I said If I want my dog to have a full butt of fur - I will try to achieve it - starting with Melatonin - as recommended by some on this forum.

Edited June 12, 2011 by RichardUK

[seeh2o]

There wouldn't be a reason to test dogs for hypothyroidism on the basis of bald thighs only. It's been well established that the two aren't correlated. That means that a dog with a furry butt is as likely to be hypothyroid as a dog with a bald butt. Giving extra thyroid hormone, whether needed or not, is likely to make a dog grow more hair -- hair growth following oral thyroid supplementation isn't an indication that the thyroid supplement was needed.

I'm not going to argue on this point. We both have our opinions on it and know where we stand.

[Batmom]

There wouldn't be a reason to test dogs for hypothyroidism on the basis of bald thighs only. It's been well established that the two aren't correlated. That means that a dog with a furry butt is as likely to be hypothyroid as a dog with a bald butt. Giving extra thyroid hormone, whether needed or not, is likely to make a dog grow more hair -- hair growth following oral thyroid supplementation isn't an indication that the thyroid supplement was needed.

I'm not going to argue on this point. We both have our opinions on it and know where we stand.

 

It isn't a matter of opinion. It has been well established that there is no correlation between bald butts in greyhounds and hypothyroidism.

 

Nor is it a matter of opinion that providing supplemental thyroid medication tends to promote hair growth.

 

Whether or not to test a greyhound for thyroid function is obviously a personal decision. I don't recommend that people do so on the basis of common greyhound pattern baldness, since it isn't correlated with thyroid malfunction.

[seeh2o]

Google "association between alopecia and thyroid in dogs" in regular Google and in Google scholar.

 

I'm sticking a fork in it because I'm done.

[Batmom]

1. We're not talking about "dogs," we're talking about greyhounds.

 

2. I prefer substantiated scientific resources to generic Google, where you turn up all kinds of myths and anecdotes masquerading as data.

[JJNg]

I helped The Royal Veterinary College run a survey some years ago on Bald Thigh Syndrome ...

There were three main types as I remember - one - regular wax and wane accentuated by moult - two - gradually increasing loss - Three - Intermittent loss caused by external causes (stress of racing or kennel rub for example)

Interesting...this is consistent with what a friend and I have noticed with our own dogs. If our greys are more active, such as during lure coursing season, they tend to have less hair on their thighs. They sometimes regrow all their hair during the off-season, or if we aren't doing much lure coursing for extended periods due to various reasons. I've also noticed seasonal patterns, as well as intermittent variations in amount of hair on the thighs that I can't always explain. This mostly just applies to my brindle girl. My parti-colored boy always has a thick, full coat.

 

Stress does cause some greyhounds to lose fur - so removal from racing increased fur growth. The stress temporarily reduces production of hormones from the thyroid - causing hypothyroidism.

Stress (both good and bad) affects a number of different hormones and physiologic processes. I don't think it's been established that the reason stress causes hair loss is due to temporary hypothyroidism. Do you have a reference for this?

 

Well...... I want my dog to have a furry butt - because then I'm not stopped by passers-by asking what is wrong with my "poor dog" Too many mistake Bald Thigh Syndrome for Mange.

Personally, I don't care what others say if I know my dogs are healthy. I get asked about bald thighs, as well as why my dogs are 'so skinny' (they are in good condition for greys). I just explain about breed characteristics, and most people accept this. I'm not going to change my dog's appearance due to the concerns of people who don't know the breed.

 

I realize there seems to be some controversy about whether bald thighs are 'normal' for greys or not. Even if it is not normal, I don't believe it's a significant health problem.

 

In addition bald butts are far more noticeable and may even be more common on black dogs. Around 90 to 95% of our dogs at the kennels are black. So whereas a dog with slight baldness will be accepted for adoption - a very bad case will not

Interesting...black dogs are harder to adopt out here in the U.S. because people seem to have a prejudice against the color black itself. With our adoption group, I haven't noticed bald thighs to affect adoption. But maybe that's because bald butts are so common here it's almost seen as normal. At some of the big greyhound gatherings, there's often a "baldest butt" contest.

 

I am giving Melatonin to see if it will redress a condition of fur loss - which is neither "a useful seasonal or activity-oriented adaptation for the dog"

I believe Batmom's comment about "seasonal or activity-oriented adaptation" was referring to reasons "one" and "three" that you mentioned yourself from The Royal Veterinary College survey.

 

If melatonin is given to counteract Hypothyroidism by vets then there is little difference to giving Rimadyl for pain. It would reduce any level of Hypothyroidism just as Rimadyl reduces inflammation.

I don't know of any vets using melatonin to treat hypothyroidism. There are studies that show melatonin levels may be affected by hypothyroidism, but the solution to this would be to treat the hypothyroidism with thyroid supplement. Giving melatonin wouldn't address the underlying problem.

 

I still find it laughable this emphasis on appearance when I see all those pet greyhounds dressed up!!! Of course that's not for appearance is it? Or those chopped tails or cropped ears - or those dyed pink dogs - They are not for appearance??

I don't see how this argument is relevant or appropriate to the discussion here. I am also one who prefers not to 'treat' characteristics that are purely cosmetic issues and not health problems. I also never dress up my dogs, or crop ears or dock tails on my dogs, or dye my dogs pink. I suspect the others who have expressed opinions against medicating for benign hair loss don't do those things either.

 

For your information I have already spoken to my vet about the use of Melatonin and he DID NOT OBJECT - but why should I bother to explain?

Richard, my reason for posting is not to attack your decision or require you to explain yourself. You're free to do what you feel is best for the dogs under your care. However, in a discussion like this on a large, public forum, there are many others reading and taking heed of the advice given, and I feel it is important to present all sides of the matter.

 

Melatonin is not a completely safe supplement. It's a hormone that is naturally produced by the brain and interacts with other hormones in the body. In healthy individuals, I believe that the brain/body systems are fully capable of regulating their own hormone production, and better able to do so and keep things balanced without outside influence. When we start supplementing with hormones that may not really be needed, we could potentially throw things out of balance and cause problems that weren't there before. Here's an article about use of melatonin in humans. I couldn't find any veterinary articles that were as comprehensive, so there may be some differences in details, but as a natural hormone, most of the info likely applies the same to either species.

 

I personally wouldn't supplement with a hormone that might have other effects on the body for a purely cosmetic reason. I'd consider melatonin for anxiety problems, which affect the dog's quality of life. However, I know that many have had good results with it for BTS, so I wouldn't strongly discourage anyone who wanted to try it either.

 

Google "association between alopecia and thyroid in dogs" in regular Google and in Google scholar.

There's no dispute that hypothyroidism often causes hair loss. However, not all hair loss is caused by hypothyroidism. We're talking about a specific pattern of alopecia in greyhounds. I did a Google search as you suggested, but added the terms "thigh" and "greyhound". Interestingly, I found 2 articles on the first page of results, both referencing a study that show no correlation between thyroid function and bald thigh syndrome in greys. Here's a PDF of the abstract of this study.

 

This first article is actually from the Greyhound Board of Great Britain website. And here's the other one from an adoption group site.

Edited June 13, 2011 by jjng

[Batmom]

Thanks for the reasoned commentary, jjing.

If our greys are more active, such as during lure coursing season, they tend to have less hair on their thighs. They sometimes regrow all their hair during the off-season, or if we aren't doing much lure coursing for extended periods due to various reasons. I've also noticed seasonal patterns

 

This is what I have noticed as well. In my experience, dogs who come from the track/farm with bald thighs tend to stay bald while they're in a kennel environment or when in a reasonable approximation of racing trim, and then to regrow the hair as they become less active seasonally, with age, or simply with several months to a year in a settled home environment. All of which suggests to me that -1- dogs who grow more hair while on melatonin might well regrow that same hair without it (that is, the hair growth being coincidental and not due to the melatonin supplement; I believe melatonin for hair growth has been studied more in boxers with seasonal flank alopecia); -2- the folks who've hypothesized that bald butts may be related to cortisol production might be on to something; and -3- for a dog engaging in explosive activity, less hair over the large thigh muscles and the belly would certainly make for more efficient heat loss, which is useful to an active dog in summer.

 

 

Funny creatures, dogs.

[MaryJane]

I've had great luck with hair growth by giving both fish oil and oatmeal in the diets. My Larry, brown and white, came to me with no fur on his sides and within a month or two of starting him on a new diet that included fish oil and oatmeal he became pretty lush. My former grey had no hair on the neck and a bald butt when he came to me and within a month of going on a home-made diet that included the oatmeal and fish oil he started "sprouting hair" on his but and his neck and he was over 10 at the time. Granted, most of the problems were due to food "sensitivity" and maybe the new food was the reason that the fur grew back but, I think the "lushness" was helped by the fish oil and oatmeal.