He Bit Me... Again. I Think He Needs A Different Owner.

[Guest greytmiles]

Oh, Miles.

 

He bit me... again. Worse this time.

I think he needs a more experienced and capable owner to help him work through his resource guarding issues.

I've definitely had success in the house - implementing NILF and a no-furniture rule, but I feel like I'm out of my depth on this particular issue.

Even though incidents are only happening once every 3-4 months, they're happening... and I think they're getting slightly worse each time, absolutely when food is involved.

 

Last night we were in the park right near the car, and he grabbed a bone before I saw it.

While trying to get a good grip on it, he dropped it, and from four feet away (leash in hand) i said 'ok, let's go!' wanting to walk him in the other direction. He then wheeled around on me, lunged, and bit my stomach. Then he got into the 'stance', head down, growling. I moved around the side and he made a small movement like he would lunge again so i stood still. A couple seconds passed, I said his name and led him to the car. He hopped right in... shook... and then presto. Miles is Miles again.

I was terrified.. and it hurt! 90lbs is a lot of dog to come hurtling at you, teeth first. I have two 4" long cuts side by side from his canines and a nasty bruise... no puncture wounds.

 

I don't blame him. I love him. We've been through a lot in the last year and a half. Like finding out (the hard way) he's not cat safe, and when he went at my roommate over a sandwich in the street.

 

I guess I'll have the vet run a thyroid panel just in case? I'm not trying to sound flip. He's such a wonderful dog the other 95% of the time, really. Friendly, happy, lovey.

 

Please understand that sometimes it's hard to see a bigger issue when you get a FOUR MONTH break between 'incidents' to get comfortable and trusting again.

 

Sigh, I don't know what else to say.

Thanks for listening.

Edited April 29, 2011 by greytmiles

[Guest kydie]

it is understandable you are upset,, and afraid,, if you are afraid then it is hard to maintain a comfortable working relationship if you feel he is a little "too much" for you, an experienced dog trainer(and I say that with a shrug) may help,, in my neck of the woods there is no such thing,,, or maybe your rescue group could put you in touch with a "grey savy" person. Only had one "rough" pup in all my years,, and it took years for her (and I) to work though it,, she is still with me and she is 12 1/2 years old now (non grey) and she can still be a fright to others,,, I watch her (still) like a hawk

[TheFullHouse]

From your post I'm getting that he's better in the home with NILIF in place and now the only time you're having issues is with food or high value treats?

[Guest greytmiles]

From your post I'm getting that he's better in the home with NILIF in place and now the only time you're having issues is with food or high value treats?

 

Yes, I'd say he's better in the house, especially after the 'no furniture rule', positive treats reinforcement and feeding from the roommate, and constant NILIF - waiting for dinner, tricks for treats, dropping his toy at the door before walks.

 

It's 'found food' outside the home that's a problem - stray chicken bones, dead squirrels, a bowl of kibble at a greyhound event. I try my best to always be watching and 'steering clear', but if he's managed to pick something up in his mouth that's definitely the issue.

 

Erin

[TheFullHouse]

So you've had some success in training him, that's great. I've never had one go after me upon discovering something outside but I would imagine teaching him the "leave it" command would work really well here. I would tell you how we trained Jilly Bean the "leave it" command but if he's reactive to the point he is, I don't think it would work. Hopefully one of the other GT'rs who are dog trainers will pop in and give you some advice.

[Batmom]

Has he had any training/practice in the rewards of NOT resource guarding?

[Guest sweetpea]

So I take it once he gets the found food you're trying to take it from him?

 

I don't know how many dogs would not have a problem with that scenario.

 

Have you tried training "drop it"?

In a controlled environment you teach him to "drop" something he has by enticing him with something he likes better.

 

over and over and over and over....

 

Buzzy

 

edited to sound a little less judgemental.....bad day

Edited April 29, 2011 by sweetpea

[Guest sja5032]

What about muzzleing him outside of the house? At least until you come up with a better solution, then you can work on things and they worst that will happen is a muzzle punch (which hurt sometimes but not as bad as being bit) and the fear won't be there.

[Guest greytmiles]

Has he had any training/practice in the rewards of NOT resource guarding?

 

I think I understand what you're asking...

 

The closest I think we've come is working on 'wait' before he takes a treat that I've set down on the ground, and we've done a bit of 'trading up'.. again IN the house (which for him, seems to make a big difference).

 

Could you please give an example of exactly what you mean?

 

Thank you for the replies!

 

Erin

[Tallgreydogmom]

Taking food from them is a NO NO. Even stray chicken bones. I had neighbors that would toss their bones over the fence. I would let them eat the bones, better the bones than me.

Edited April 29, 2011 by Tallgreydogmom

[Guest greytmiles]

So I take it once he gets the found food you're trying to take it from him?

 

I don't know how many dogs would not have a problem with that scenario.

 

Have you tried training "drop it"?

In a controlled environment you teach him to "drop" something he has by enticing him with something he likes better.

 

over and over and over and over....

 

Buzzy

 

edited to sound a little less judgemental.....bad day

 

Bad day... I hear that. No hard feelings t'all, I'm thankful for any and all input.

 

I'm not taking the food out of his mouth, or frankly, getting anywhere near his head. I waited for him to drop it by accident (thanks gravity), and tried to walk him away from it. All the same to him, I imagine, but just to be clear I'm not (wo)man-handling him in any way.

 

He'll 'drop it' or 'trade up' for tastier treats IN the house, but it seems to be a whole other world once we're out of doors. Guess I could try 'staging' similar events outside? I dunno...

 

Erin

[GreyAcresMom]

Taking food from them is a NO NO. Even stray chicken bones. I had neighbors that would toss their bones over the fence. I would let them eat the bones, better the bones than me.

 

 

I'm not much of a trainer but I have never had a animal that would not drop their "find" in or out. I can always take food from them. I just this am had to take a bird away from Kala Blu. I just told her what a good girl thanks for the mothers day present and took the bird. With ALL the bunnies they have brought in, I have to have control. Just takes once. Sorry. I could never let that go with all the dogs in and out of our house.

[jetcitywoman]

Holy cow, I'm so sorry. I too, thought after you mentioned resource guarding that you'd tried to take something out of his mouth. But you were a few feet away, simply tried to redirect him away from the bone, and he leaped and bit you? That's so horrifying - total Cujo! Definitely call in some experts or talk to your adoption group. If he needs to be re-homed, it should probably be with a super-experienced dog person.

[TheFullHouse]

The way we were taught to teach Jilly Bean to "leave it" was simple, a piece of hot dog was placed on the floor by the trainer. We were to walk by it and when she lunged for it, a quick snap (in a pulling back motion) with the command "leave it" and then keep walking. Once past the object, we rewarded her and told her good girl. Unfortunately I'm not sure that the quick pull on the leash would work with your guy since he's already reactive.

 

I would work on the "drop it" outside since it works inside.

[Guest Lgyure85]

We had to return a non-grey a little over a year ago. It was a little bit different, as I was the resource he was guarding, at least at first. We worked long and hard with a behaviorist (who was wonderful), but he ended up snarling at me one night when I tried to push him off the bed. I talked with our behaviorist, and she agreed with me that he was likely more than we could handle. The jist of the story, is that if you have to re-home him, try to not feel bad about it. You have truly done everything you can.

 

Maddie bit me once when I was trying to put a blanket underneath her while she was chewing a bone. I don't think I handled it as well as you, though, as I smacked her with the broom until she left the bone. She no longer gets bones, and if I'm in doubt when I have to take something from her, I take it with the broom.

 

 

Honestly though, the muzzle idea sounds pretty good for Miles...

[GeorgeofNE]

Taking food from them is a NO NO. Even stray chicken bones. I had neighbors that would toss their bones over the fence. I would let them eat the bones, better the bones than me.

 

 

I'm not much of a trainer but I have never had a animal that would not drop their "find" in or out. I can always take food from them. I just this am had to take a bird away from Kala Blu. I just told her what a good girl thanks for the mothers day present and took the bird. With ALL the bunnies they have brought in, I have to have control. Just takes once. Sorry. I could never let that go with all the dogs in and out of our house.

 

Yes, I totally disagree with letting a dog just eat something. If you have a proper relationship, and have worked on "drop it" or trading, there is no reason that with MOST pet dogs, you cannot deal with this sort of thing without getting bitten.

 

I've NEVER had a dog who would attack me over food on the sidewalk, nor have I ever allowed a dog to eat something he shouldn't.

 

Clearly there is a very serious problem with Miles and his owner. I'm not sure what to suggest, but I wouldn't waste my money on a thyroid test. Thyroid problems don't come and go like that, and absent any other symptoms (fur/skin issues, weight loss/gain, etc.)--seriously, don't bother.

[Guest Ohiogreymom]

How is Miles doing with the kitties? Or did you have to rehome them? I also suggest you contact your group for help. There are too many wonderful greys needing homes, and it really sounds like Miles needs a very experienced home. The next bite you, (or heaven forbid, someone else) gets may be much worse, and that would not be a good thing for Miles. Darlene

[Guest FastDogsOwnMe]

It's not okay to let dogs eat cooked bones that could kill them. It's not okay for dogs to attack their owners over food. I would NOT have a dog that I could not take food from, and in all the dozens and dozens of countless dogs I have had, fostered, boarded, lived with, watched, etc- I have never had one that I couldn't take food from, and only a TINY amount of dogs that were like the OPs dog and even required any training to let me take food from them. My experience tells me that most dogs are fine having food taken from them by an adult they in any way know. I routinely put my hands in the dishes of even the racers at the track and I've never had one even look at me funny. Raise the bar, folks, really, most dogs don't bite their owners, and owners shouldn't think it's okay!

 

To the OP, you have an unusual situation, IMO, but not an impossible one. I don't think it's your fault at all. I would start with the muzzle idea, a very good one, as a first and immediate step while working with a trainer or savvy friend (maybe someone from your adoption group?) to correct the behavior. His reaction is pretty extreme, but he does it because it has worked for him (and not just with you... maybe he was the bully in his litter, who knows, you know?) in the past. Dogs do what works in their world to get what they want, and they keep doing it until proven otherwise.

[Walliered]

Muzzle and use a poop guard to stop him from picking up things outside.My first grey would constantly try to eat pine bark. He would get a "wild" look in his eyes and lunge for the bark. I could take it out of his mouth, but it really made me nervous..so, on with the muzzle and stool guard..He seemed to know that he could not get the bark anymore and does not even look at it. I tried to move his bed once with him on it..he lunged at me like he was going to bite. I learned a lesson and do not move the bed anymore. I never try to take anything out of his mouth either, but I just prevent anything from going in there in the first place..LOL

[kudzu]

What he did sounds out of character with any dog I have had. It is frightening, aggressive, dangerous, & on & on. It would leave me shaken & with little trust for my dog. Yes, I would be likely to go to the vet next. Would want a thorough physical first. Assuming the vet finds no problem, I would be inclined to test for for Lyme disease first. If negative I would do a full thyroid panel next. (Cick here for the minimum needed & info on Greyhound thyroid hormone level differences.) You need to be realistic about the overall picture though. It sounds like you are. If you think the problem might be getting worse then it probably is. If you think he may be more than you can handle then it is possible he is. There is no shame in admitting a situation is more than you can handle. Am not trying to sway you one way or another. My suggestion at this point, if there is no physical problem, is to get the help of a professional but please be very picky about who you use. The method must be one that is safe for you to do at home. In the meantime, please play it safe. The suggestion for a muzzle on walks or outside is a good one.

 

You did a good job of explaining what happened. I do want to ask if you could expand on something, please. So he nabbed the bone before you saw it, he fumbled & dropped it. At what point in that likely quite tiny time period did you see what was happening? What did you do, physically or verbally, when you realized the situation? So after he dropped it you said, "Let's go." What tone did you say it in? Were you doing anything else besides giving him a verbal instruction? Specifically what might you have been doing with your body?

 

Has anyone recommended the book "Mine! A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs" by Jean Donaldson? I think it would help you a lot. It seems you have had progress & some success in your home. That is a very good thing. As already suggested, now you need to practice outdoors in many different places & circumstances. Start very close to home, maybe just outside the door on your porch or patio & then move farther out from there. Recognize that dogs do not generalize things well so they need lots of repetitions in many different circumstances to truly understand a command or required behavior.

 

Definitely train him to "Leave It", sometimes nicknamed Doggy Zen or just Zen. Here is an article on training it. "Leave It" by Debi Davis However, your situation may call for modifications. Though most of us start with food in our hands you do not have to do it that way. Initial sessions can be done with him on harness & tethered to a secure spot while you stand at a safe distance or he could even be crated or behind an xpen. Will expand on that if you want me to. In the meantime read the article & understand the starting point is not teaching the command. Do not use the command to begin with. You want him to realize that he can get something great by NOT going for something great. Good things come to those who wait. By turning away from something good, he can get you to give him something better. That's the starting point.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Sounds like you have a hound that doesn't respect your authority. Question, how does he act when you feed him at home? If you are in the same room, does he growl or bare his teeth? What I would do is to hand-feed him all his meals. If he does act like he wants to guard his food when you are trying to feed him, muzzle him. He can eat through a muzzle and with the muzzle on, you shouldn't feel as afraid to be bit, which will in turn increase your confidence and help the situation. If he senses that you are afraid, he will feed on that fear and become more assertive knowing he is getting his way. With hand feeding, it shows him you are the leader on an instinctual level. There is no confrontation or otherwise negative actions yet he will understand that you are the one that gives him food, and as such, he must respect you. While I am no expert by any means, I have fostered many hounds and have had many people I know use the technique for other issues as well, it is a VERY effective way to bond and establish leadership in your household. I don't think your situation is hopeless, but without really seeing all that is going on, it seems that your guy doesn't respect your leadership and needs to understand his place. To do this, you don't need to dominate him, you can use the hand-feeding technique to easily get him to understand things. Once he starts to learn his place, the NILIF as well as maybe a basic obedience class, he will blossom into a trustworthy boy.

 

Chad

[Guest SusanP]

I'm usually pretty calm about occasional growling/snapping incidents, especially with a newish hound when we try to grab something high value away (which we normally don't do without 'trading up", by the way) or when, as one poster described, moving the dog bodily when he doesn't know/trust us that well yet (in the first year or so). One of my sweetest hounds once growled and snapped at me as I tried to move a blanket under him, and we had a number of incidents when we tried to physically move our feisty Spinner off our bed abruptly early on. Easy solution is to not do those things. Get the dog off the bed with a treat or a leash, don't do things that will frighten him, trade up when he has something bad for him, and use a basket muzzle on outings to prevent his picking up stuff he shouldn't have. It's not caving in; it's just common sense to handle an animal safely.

 

But

 

Your description of his going for your stomach and doing *that* much damage to you (ie: not just a bruise or a scrape) when you didn't even try to take the bone from him but merely turn him around sounds extreme and worrisome to me. I do believe things like this can be worked around in many cases. I also know that it may be difficult to find him another home if this behavior has not been addressed. A dog like this would probably be put down at our local animal shelter, for example. If he were mine, I'd exhaust every option: serious vet check, work with a behaviorist...and then see what happens. In the meantime, use a basket muzzle when you are out and about.

 

How long have you had him? In our experience with 5 hounds, it can take a year or more for them to really, really know and trust us. I can do things with Spinner now that would have caused a growl and a snap during his first year with us. On the other hand, I am always mindful of that old tendency during his interactions with people he doesn't know well. Oddly enough, his trust of us seems to have translated to a trust for others as well. I was horrified one day to find an elderly Chinese friend I'd left alone with him for 2 seconds teasing him by trying to pull his rawhide away from him. But to my amazement, he only gave her a pained look, not a growl, not a snap. 2 years ago, he'd have snapped at even me if I'd tried that. (I gave my friend a stern talking to anyway---No dog teasing allowed in our house! I explained that he may bite her, and she seemed to understand. I'll never leave her alone with them for a second after this, though).

[Batmom]

I would consult your group about either returning him or enlisting the aid of a good behaviorist (which I'm hoping your group can recommend). Meantime I would slip his basket muzzle on for walks so you don't have to worry about what's going to happen if he spies a moldy porkchop or something. Take along some slivers of hot dog or fake bacon strips that you can use to reward if you have a chance to practice "drop it/leave it." Something skinny @ 2" long is easy to offer through the basket muzzle holes.

 

As someone already mentioned, there's no sign this behavior has any basis in a medical problem of any sort. Never hurts to do blood tests and whatnot, but in this case you'd likely be spending your money for reasons other than the problem at hand.

 

IMHO this is a behavior that can be modified with lots of "drop it!" and on-leash obedience training. You have to decide if you're the right family to do that with him. No shame either way.

[Guest BrianRke]

Taking food from them is a NO NO. Even stray chicken bones. I had neighbors that would toss their bones over the fence. I would let them eat the bones, better the bones than me.

I disagree. You should be able to take ANYTHING from your dog. What if he was eating rat poison?

[Guest Giselle]

I rarely advise doing nothing, but I think this is out of anyone's control.

 

If I read this correctly, you were standing FOUR FEET away and gave him a light tug on the leash. You didn't touch him. You didn't reach for anything. You gave light pressure on the leash while you were 4 feet away from him, right? The only interaction between you and Miles in that situation was 4 feet of space and light pressure from the leash. And Miles responded by lunging and attacking you.

 

In my opinion, this is extremely disturbing behavior. I can understand if Miles bit you while you physically reached for him. To lunge after you due to light lead pressure, however, is to actively seek out damage, and that is a very severe form of aggression. When aggression turns from defensive to offensive, it is much more difficult to control. It shows that he has extremely low frustration tolerance, low impulse control, quick reactivity, and is beginning to attack rather than produce mere warning nips/bites. You can Trade Up all you want and do Doggy Zen-style leave it, but these are just really basic fundamental behaviors. It's going to take a lot of holistic work to mold Miles into a SAFE pet. The damage of the attack has escalated, and, in my opinion, dogs who've hit that level of aggression don't ever really "unlearn" it. You can manage situations and teach alternative behaviors, but, if they ever get pushed again to that level of frustration, I do believe that they will react with the same level of severity as the last time.

 

I adore working with aggressive dogs, but I think you should take that into consideration. You can't control every situation in life. I've put years of effort into Ivy to get her to a level where, even when we're in very bad situations, she can still bounce back and not exhibit offensive aggression. However, I know the risk is always there. At least for her, she does not redirect towards humans, but, if she did, I probably would not keep her.

 

ETA: Oh yeah. I just read the "Miles attacked roommate" thread. The severity of his attackes are definitely escalating, and his frustration tolerance is definitely decreasing. I'm very worried for you, honestly...

Edited April 30, 2011 by Giselle