In Your Experience: Success Rates

[Guest Giselle]

This has been something that has been bugging me on and off for years. You know the typical story...Joe has a problem with Fido. Joe goes to an obedience class. They see mild success. Joe stops practicing with Fido. A few months later, Fido's problems resurge (and with a vengeance!), and Joe loses hope in training. Worst case scenario: Fido gets dumped at shelter.

 

In my field, I see these cases play out over and over again. From a wide variety of Grade-B trainers to some phenomenal veterinary behaviorists, the results I see are: low owner compliance, inadequate owner understanding of technique, low confidence in technique, and dismally low long-term success. The success rate, I'm almost afraid to admit, is probably very very very low. (Jeez, it's almost as bad as the US public educational system )

 

Even with my own case studies, owner compliance is less than stellar, even when I call and e-mail and even when I send them detailed notes and readings. It seems like, even when there IS progress and success, the owners don't see it as such and so lose confidence in the techniques. I've seen a lot of great stories on GT and a lot of stories with no ends. Now, I'm wondering: From your perspective, if you've ever hired a trainer/behaviorist or gone to an obedience class, were you successful in the end?? Did you have confidence in the techniques? Were you consistent with practice? When you encountered problems, what did you do? And what in the world can the advice-giver do to encourage success and confidence??

 

Note: I know some of the failure rates have to do with shoddy trainers, and I've been there done that. So, in the end, what did work??

[Guest Duke]

no response to your post but I take offense as a NY state public education teacher...

 

 

[Batmom]

1. KISS. Keep it simple and concrete.

 

2. Trainer needs to observe dog-handler pair and address concrete problems in their interaction -- timing is a huge one.

 

3. Trainer observation / addressing of problems means that 90% of a session is going to be practicing stuff, not presenting new material.

 

4. Trainer should always be focused on student dog/handler pairs, not his/her own.

 

Things that I find particularly annoying, most of which will send me packing:

 

1. Trainer bringing his/her own dog to class and spending a lot of time on demonstrations with his/her. Doesn't teach me anything about training a dog from scratch or working with my own. Walking through new material or demonstrating techniques with different students' dogs is fine and often enlightening.

 

2. Trainer spending a lot of time discussing theory. Little snippets directly related to an action-reaction sequence and why one behavior is effective and another not are fine. Long discourses -- useless.

 

3. Trainer not able to succinctly state the reason for an exercise.

 

4. Trainer spending time expounding his/her views on what to feed the dog. Not what I'm paying for.

[Guest Swifthounds]

The problem with owners and dogs is the same problem behind public education's woes - it doesn't matter how willing or capable the pupil (dog or child) or how good the teacher (dog trainer or teacher in the classroom) - the likelihood of success with children and dogs is entirely tied to the passion, love, and commitment of the ranking human in the relationship (dog owner or parent). It doesn't matter the money or the resources available or how easy you try to make the task or how encouraging you are from the outside. What matters - and what makes success and failure- is entirely internal to the relationship between pupil (dog or child) and authority (owner or parent).

 

The successes I have had with a variety of dogs with a variety of issues have come about because of the relationship I had with the dog - that's the motivation that drives you to keep trying new things, to not give up, and to occasionally look at lack of progress and admit that it isn't the trainer or the pupil, sometimes it's you who has to be willing to set down your judgments and change - because the relationship you're building is important and what you're teaching/learning isn't a skill or a task or a behavior - it's the art of the relationship.

[Batmom]

P.S. Forgot two of the most important things a trainer can do: Set the student up for success, and praise praise praise whenever possible.

 

Gee, what does that remind us of?

 

But, it works. Success and praise are great motivators. A student might feel stupid, underpracticed, frustrated at having ongoing problems ... but when the trainer finds something to praise ("He hasn't tried to play with his leash even once today! Good job!"), people light up and get motivated to continue.

[TheFullHouse]

We took Jilly Bean to obedience classes right away after getting her because she was totally out of control. Her previous owners had another JRT that they had gone to classes with so they figured they knew how to do it with Jilly Bean, problem, they didn't do it. They meant to but never got around to it, so we took her immediately. The trainer we had used very simple commands, sit, stay, leave it, wait, heel and down, basic one word commands which were easy for Jilly to learn and for us to practice. The hardest one for Jilly Bean was "leave it" because this command was taught using pieces of hot dog and Jilly loves food, of any kind.

 

I have to say they were a success with Jilly Bean but we had to practice and practice with her. We got lazy for a while there and man did she let us know it so we started back up with the training again and we make sure that we use the commands we taught her on a regular basis because if we don't she will regress.

 

I think probably a lot of owners think that once the class is over that the dogs "know" the commands and what is expected of them and they quit practicing them or using them and then one day they give the dog a command and low and behold, the dog totally ignores them.

[greysmom]

I think a lot of the failures in training have two elements. One is a lack of understanding by the owner about what a "success" in training is, what it looks like, and what a reasonable expectation is for success. Second, most people want the problem fixed - whatever the problem is - instantly. They don't want to wait and go through all the steps, sometimes very small steps that are hard to quantify unless you are skilled in observing your pet (another common problem for owners).

 

In my obedience class there were only people/dog combos. One pair dropped out after two weeks, another two weeks later, because they couldn't commit to coming to weekly class for 8 weeks. The other three were moderately successful though their dogs never seemed to be able to consistently repeat a behavior unless the trainer performed it. None of them stopped their dogs from jumping and barking, the two things they stated they wanted to control in their dogs. Cash (my spook, there for some socialization and nothing much else), didn't do anything in class. And I didn't expect her to. I was able to successfully teach her all the behaviors in our training manual at home, but we had to practice every day. Once she learned it though she was good to go at least in private.

 

Our trainer was pretty good at breaking down a behavior into smaller ones to lead the people through the learning of it. Most just don't want to concentrate that hard on anything.

[Guest Swifthounds]

I think probably a lot of owners think that once the class is over that the dogs "know" the commands and what is expected of them and they quit practicing them or using them and then one day they give the dog a command and low and behold, the dog totally ignores them.

 

Along these lines, I've found it helps if the owner is encouraged to use words that work for them and are in their usual parlance, so that even when they think they're done training or the dog knows everything, their natural habits will reinforce the training in an ongoing fashion.

 

For my own example, everyone else was training "shake.". I trained it as "paw" as in "give me your paw.". I just wasnt likely to use shake in that context, but I do say "give me your paw" and similar phrases in my normal speech.

[jetcitywoman]

Now, I'm wondering: From your perspective, if you've ever hired a trainer/behaviorist or gone to an obedience class, were you successful in the end??

 

I think Greysmom nailed it with the variable definition of "success". For me, success was merely teaching my two greys that they can communicate with me. That was the biggie. I also succeeded in teaching them basic behaviors I need them to do on command for practical reasons: sit, wait, come, no, roll over, down. Our trainer included stay and a couple of other basics, but I never followed through because I felt they weren't critical for greyhounds never allowed off leash.

 

I do have a caveat to my answers, though: I didn't call in a trainer to fix any problems. It was more to educate my husband and I on the basics of dog training, and Capri for the basics of obedience.

 

Did you have confidence in the techniques?

 

Yes, the trainer we hired used positive reinforcement only and she also clearly knew and loved dogs. She got Capri to sit after only about three tries, so even though it took us longer that was evidence that she knew what she was doing and had good technique. We did continue to use her techniques, even though we had sloppy follow-through on homework and ongoing practice.

 

Were you consistent with practice?

 

Um, no. Time does get in the way, unfortunately. I think this is the problem for most people. Like someone else commented about how her class mates gradually dropped out because they couldn't commit a few hours every weekend. You tell people to just practice for 10 minutes a day which is easy, but procrastination sets in and before you know it, several months have gone by.

 

Speaking for myself, since we trained our two for practical behaviors, we do reinforce them that way. For example, they have to sit or down for treats and meals, lay on their sides and roll over for toothbrushing, wait at the door and for meals, etc.

 

The only "trick" we have is that Capri catches food tossed at her. But that one is so fun I do it all the time just because she's adorable at it. (Many times she'll catch it with a snap and then look around as if she missed it. Silly girl.)

 

When you encountered problems, what did you do?

 

The only problem we had was that we found Ajax to be completely disinterested when we started training for him. We started him about two months after we got him, just like Capri. We gave up thinking he was just dumb (but made up for it by how stinking cute he was). But about a month ago I noticed that he was engaging me more with prolonged eye contact, so I started "dog school" again. In a week, I've taught him to lay on his side with a hand signal, so he's not dumb. In hindsight I think he was just not fully settled in yet and the trust wasn't there.

 

And what in the world can the advice-giver do to encourage success and confidence??

 

I can't advise much because my dogs were too easy. I guess like someone else said, reward and praise. If you can show progress in a session or two, that helps too. People are all about instant gratification, so even if you have "baby step" progress, point it out and make a party out of it.

[GeorgeofNE]

I train my own dogs, but I also devote a LOT of time to it. Well, not George! He's "special." But my prior dog, and various family dogs.

 

What I've observed, over and over, is people who pay good money for a few classes and don't understand what "it didn't work" when they fail to do ANY practice at all! It's pretty pitiful!

 

I got so sick of people saying, "Oh, you're SO LUCKY your dog listens to you!" when I had spent countless hours working with him.

[Guest Lakota]

I believe a lot of it stems from the lack of consistency from the owners. As a society we tend to be very undisciplined and this shift in our behaviours is showing in our dogs behaviours. Too many people don't realize that a dog is commitment and work, as well as fun and cuddly.

 

My first dog (as an adult - always had them growing up) was a 6 yr old, unneutered male rotti, owner surrendered them to the human society when he went to jail. Extremely dominant and had to be seperated from the female rotti he came in with. He bit me a couple of times and I was afraid to come into my own apartment. Enter - my VET! To say that I love this vet is an understatement. He knew the situation of how Oscar had come to me, offered behavioural modification techniques, and called me every night to see how the day had gone, and to offer advice and encouragement. I think this was the key to my success with Oscar. Failing wasn't an option, I had someone to talk openly to about it, and he actually cared. While I had to deal with dominant behaviours from Oscar for the rest of his life, I do describe it as a success. I knew would never have a cuddly retriever personality, but accepted and loved him for who he was.

 

Since then, I've never used a trainer/behaviourist but have had 2 very well adjusted, well socialize dogs.

[JJNg]

I agree with Swifthounds' response about it mostly being dependent on the commitment of the owner and the relationship between the human and dog. I also think the answer to your questions depends on your definition on "success" and what kind of goals and expectations are being set for the dog.

 

Regarding cases of true behavior problems (not 'normal' dogs who just lack manners and basic training), among the 'successes' I find that there is a larger percentage of dog/human relationships that are maintained by management, avoiding problems, and lifestyle adjustments on the human side. A smaller percentage of cases where the dog's behavior is drastically changed by training. After all, management is easier than training and behavior modification, and depending on the individual dog's inherent temperament, some goals to change the dog's threshold and nature may be unrealistic.

 

In terms of personal experience, the only time I've worked with trainers and behaviorists was with my fear aggressive/reactive IG Casey, many years ago. I won't count the trainer we tried when I was still in high school (traditional, force-based methods that made things worse). Casey picked up all the standard obedience commands very quickly, but obviously those didn't directly address the behavior problems. Desensitizing to strangers out in public really wasn't very successful, but I don't think my goal at the time of wanting him to nicely greet strangers approaching him was very realistic.

 

While I was in vet school, I worked with a positive trainer who was also a classmate. A couple areas where we had some success was teaching him not to bark at people we passed while riding in the car, and teaching him to hide behind me when strangers approached us. By then he was 9-10 years old and starting to have some health problems, and I gave up on the idea of socializing him to people. Less stressful for all involved to just avoid contact with strangers and focus on learning how to live peacefully with him at home and not get bitten (yes, he would bite me when he was stressed).

 

Probably not helpful for your question, but my commitment to Casey was a product of our relationship and bond. I was committed to him for life, and outside factors had no affect on that. Nothing a trainer said would have made a difference, and I probably had more people tell me that I should give up on him and that I was crazy to keep a dog who bit me.

 

In dealing with clients, I find this to be true for others as well. The bottom line is that how dedicated an owner is to their dog, whether following through with medical or training advice, is not something that can be easily changed by others. It's a matter of their relationship/bond with the dog, as well as their personal attitude and cultural beliefs about what the dog means in their life. Sorry, I suppose this is all more philosophical and probably doesn't give you any useful answers.

 

These days, I really don't do much training outside of everyday interactions. The only 'command' my current dogs know is 'sit' but they are all well behaved, respond well to their names, and have good basic manners. They all have minor issues (what dog is perfect?), all things that are easily managed. Probably the biggest issue I have to be careful of is that Willow can be fear aggressive toward men who approach her too quickly when she is lying down. But even this is rare these days and only happens when she is stressed or not feeling good, and I've never specifically worked with her on this issue.

[Hawthorn]

... the likelihood of success with children and dogs is entirely tied to the passion, love, and commitment of the ranking human in the relationship (dog owner or parent).

 

I think this sums it up in a nutshell. Motivation comes mainly from within and if it's not there I'm not sure there's much that can be done about it. I've never consulted a behaviourist, but I've been to quite a few obedience classes over the years and always found them disappointing in one way or another. The last class I tried a few years ago the instructor had no idea how to train a greyhound to sit or recall, so I stopped going after a few weeks. I've had much better success training my dogs on my own and actually enjoy thinking up new training techniques. I won't be going to any more obedience classes.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Hawthorn

[Guest KennelMom]

I think a lot of the failures in training have two elements. One is a lack of understanding by the owner about what a "success" in training is, what it looks like, and what a reasonable expectation is for success. Second, most people want the problem fixed - whatever the problem is - instantly. They don't want to wait and go through all the steps, sometimes very small steps that are hard to quantify unless you are skilled in observing your pet (another common problem for owners).

 

sounds about right to me....

 

I think people also forget that you are ALWAYS training your dog. It's not just when you pick up the clicker or "decide" it's a training moment. EVERY moment with EVERY person your dog encounters is "training." Inconsistency in the message the dog receives in what is right, wrong, expected, good, bad, whatever will lead to less predictable behaviors/training.

[jetcitywoman]

Another angle is impatience. I've seen lots of people repeat commands and even yell at their dogs. I've seen people repeat a command at the same time the dog is responding to the first command. I also saw someone jerk the leash just as her dog sat down on command, poor thing actually winced in sort of a "alright, already!" expression. I think combined with impatience, people generally aren't sensitive enough to see that the dog is either thinking about the command or about to obey. They want instant obedience. I'm sensitive to animals and I love to watch them think. Our trainer commented on it in one of the early sessions with Capri. She complimented me that I was allowing Capri to think about it, because at the time she was in the stage where she had to sort of guess what I was asking her and maybe try a couple things to figure out what was right. Even still, it doesn't bother me if she takes 30 seconds to think about the command. And it doesn't bother me if I have to ask her twice, as long as she finally agrees with me that she should do the behavior, I reward her. (Mommy always gets her way, one way or the other! )

 

I wonder if the people who feel that the training failed were those who were insensitive to the dog's reactions and too impatient to let the dog think. "He doesn't respond instantly, so he's untrainable".

[Guest pologal]

f you've ever hired a trainer/behaviorist or gone to an obedience class, were you successful in the end?? Did you have confidence in the techniques? Were you consistent with practice? When you encountered problems, what did you do? And what in the world can the advice-giver do to encourage success and confidence??

 

Note: I know some of the failure rates have to do with shoddy trainers, and I've been there done that. So, in the end, what did work??

 

Here is my story. My SO and I have 2 greyhounds, Roger (3yrs,IBD under control dog) and Carie (6yrs; healthy). Roger and Carie were allowed to sleep in the living room, free roam living room/kit only. They started fighting. Carie is an alpha female and Roger is a submissive male. He was weakend for a long time with his illness undiagnosed. Carie took advantage and bossed everyone around - including us. When she started leaving marks on him (bites) and he kept having urinary accidents for apparently no reason, we decided enough was enough - we need help.

 

I trust and respect my vet. She recommended a trainer to me. I'll call her, "Miss ADD" because she would NOT shut up about herself and her other clients and was very hard to work with. She went off in all different directions. We didnt learn about this part of her until AFTER we set up 3 training sessions (pre-paid).

 

First she came over for a free consultation. She asked a lot of questions. She seemed focused and was taking a lot of notes. She demonstrated some techniques to ward off bossy Carie. So, we thought we were good to go and paid her up front for the "3 package deal."

 

The first day, she worked with Carie's issues, but not necessarily with Carie and us. She talked A LOT and relayed many stories about similar situations and what she did. Then gave us ideas and handouts about what we can do to "knock her down a notch" on the family totum pole. She demonstrated some things - primarily showing us how to practice "stays" with Carie. I thought it was really odd that she did not want me or ask me to give it a try after she demonstrated. It was all about her showing off what she can do with a dog in a short time.

 

So, we just listened and then with our questions - had to direct her to the issues with my dogs. Miss ADD would constantly go off on a tangent about other situation and give suggestions only. She didnt otherwise say or do much of anything else. So, the first session, we got a lot of questions answered. She said again and again, its up to us to comply with these ideas etc. But, it was difficult to reenact the tricks later because we didnt practice. We only learned that some of Carie's behavior was demanding and not cute as we previously thought. So we did implement some things she talked about. That concerns mostly ignoring demanding behavior and making her wait before she goes outside or eats. We also started kenneling her when no one was home or at night.

 

The second session: she told us ahead of time that we were to work on confidence building with Roger. So, what was her one and only suggestion? Teach him touch targets. He picked up on that fast. Then she went off on a tangent about how we should expose him to fears (counter conditioning, etc), get him a dap collar and toys to keep him busy and out of trouble during the day. After about 2 hours of her blabbing...I asked again "well what else can we do to get Roger's confidence up??" And again, she relayed the same info - touch targets. She had no other suggestions besides that and counter conditioning. But, the thing is, we did know what was actually scaring him - Carie's aggressive behavior? Noises outside? We didnt know.

 

The third session: she demonstrated a trick to getting them off the furniture when we wanted them to. She also brought some videos and pictures to demo behavioral issues. She brought some samples of puzzle toys that would be challenging for them. That was IT. That was another 2 hours of her blabbing.

 

I was so mad that I wasted my money on this. $155 FLUSHED down the toilet for some lady who I would never hire again or recommend to anyone else.

 

Things have gotten better between my dogs because I took the initiative to break them up at times when no one was around. I took the initiative to make them wait for food and outside. I make sure that I put a leash on Carie and let her calm down before we go. calm = go for walk, etc. I got a dap collar and that didnt work. i listend to someone from my greyground group and they suggested the DAP diffuser and Thundershirt. WORKS! and that resolved the peeing in the house. We think Roger has slight separation anxiety. We figured this out ourselves.

 

I would have complied more if I would have had a better practice session with her telling me what I am doing right and wrong as far as tricks and interactions directly with the dogs.

 

I was so stupid to just go along with the vet and not look into this person's background or track record. I will let my vet know of my opinion of this trainer. I don care if this is the vet's BFF or not. It was in my mind a total waste of time and money that Ill never get back.

 

I understand that in my city there will be a greyhound only obedience class only coming up. I will take Roger to help him out. Ill see how that goes! But, i am interested in reaserching the training first!!!!!

 

So to vent so long, but I am really kicking myself now!

[Guest Giselle]

Love the responses. Interesting stuff. So, does it really all come down to the owner? Motivating the owner and giving him/her realistic expectations? If it all comes down to the individual, it seems a little futile to even give advice and encourage them to go to training classes that they won't even see as useful. Seems a little pessimistic, but is it really all for naught?

 

Before I go on, I just wanted to clarify - Public education comment: I hold a minor in Education, with a special interest in traditional/reformist pedagogy and its cumulative effect on student achievement. Research after research, study after study, percentage after percentage, we as a nation have acknowledged that our educational system is not doing well. In the opinion of most education-related professionals, the system is failing and has been doing so for years (decades?!). I spend about half of my academic career working within public schools in a Title 1 district. I have no qualms with saying that the public education system has extremely low success rates and is bordering on failing as an entire system. If I offended any teachers, I'm sorry, but I stand by that statement. I didn't say TEACHERS have low success rates, but the educational *system* certainly does. I love the field of Education and I love the field of animal behavior, and, as others have noted, is there any surprise in there at all? They're so beautifully interrelated, but it does frighten me how people have noted that the majority of positive change must come from the parent/owner. To bring it back to the current topic, we do in fact acknowledge that a GREAT teacher can stir up inspiration and achievement. Likewise (also brought up in this thread), a GREAT vet can reach a client on a personal level and facilitate great quality of care. But how might a GREAT trainer do that?

 

Edit: Also, I noticed that people don't often like to watch demos but rather work through it themselves. But then I see some comments on how we have to reform people's frames of mind to accept more patience and to accept small moments of success. How can we model that patience and amplify small moments of success without doing demos or videos? Of course, there needs to be a balance, but where do you think that balance lies?

Edited April 30, 2011 by Giselle

[MaryJane]

I would suggest that you do "evaluations" at the end of your classes and also do a "expectation survey" at the beginning of the class.

 

The expectation survey allows you to address what your clients expect to get from class which you can realistically counter with what they will actually walk out with. You may also want to put together an "objectives" page which provides clients with what they will have "done" (accomplished) once they complete the class. This puts a burden on you to make sure for example that each dog coming out from class will be able to sit on command or heel (whatever you decide is an objective) and if the client can't make it happen, then you would have to step up and "make it happen".

 

As to the evaluations, this will allow you to upgrade your class to include information/practices that the clients deem to be important even though it may not rank high on your list - an example would be "jumping" as a trait that is causing misery in a house and thus, need to be addressed. A rule of thumb, most "how-to" classes seem to have too much "talk" rather than showing and practicing. Sometimes "stories" are nice but, not when the clients are not getting what they paid for.

 

I would also suggest using client's dogs for your demos rather than your own dog (if you feel that you are capable). It will be tougher but, that is why it will earn you respect and "repeat customers".

 

Note, there is a tendency to "blame" the customers because they are not doing the exercise right, not listening and so on ... if these are consistent problems then change the class/techniques to take this into account.

[Guest Duke]

Love the responses. Interesting stuff. So, does it really all come down to the owner? Motivating the owner and giving him/her realistic expectations? If it all comes down to the individual, it seems a little futile to even give advice and encourage them to go to training classes that they won't even see as useful. Seems a little pessimistic, but is it really all for naught?

 

Before I go on, I just wanted to clarify - Public education comment: I hold a minor in Education, with a special interest in traditional/reformist pedagogy and its cumulative effect on student achievement. Research after research, study after study, percentage after percentage, we as a nation have acknowledged that our educational system is not doing well. In the opinion of most education-related professionals, the system is failing and has been doing so for years (decades?!). I spend about half of my academic career working within public schools in a Title 1 district. I have no qualms with saying that the public education system has extremely low success rates and is bordering on failing as an entire system. If I offended any teachers, I'm sorry, but I stand by that statement. I didn't say TEACHERS have low success rates, but the educational *system* certainly does. I love the field of Education and I love the field of animal behavior, and, as others have noted, is there any surprise in there at all? They're so beautifully interrelated, but it does frighten me how people have noted that the majority of positive change must come from the parent/owner. To bring it back to the current topic, we do in fact acknowledge that a GREAT teacher can stir up inspiration and achievement. Likewise (also brought up in this thread), a GREAT vet can reach a client on a personal level and facilitate great quality of care. But how might a GREAT trainer do that?

 

Edit: Also, I noticed that people don't often like to watch demos but rather work through it themselves. But then I see some comments on how we have to reform people's frames of mind to accept more patience and to accept small moments of success. How can we model that patience and amplify small moments of success without doing demos or videos? Of course, there needs to be a balance, but where do you think that balance lies?

 

I just don’t think a greyhound forum is the place for disparaging comments about the education system.

 

Let’s stick to dogs.

[Batmom]

Edit: Also, I noticed that people don't often like to watch demos but rather work through it themselves. But then I see some comments on how we have to reform people's frames of mind to accept more patience and to accept small moments of success. How can we model that patience and amplify small moments of success without doing demos or videos? Of course, there needs to be a balance, but where do you think that balance lies?

 

I think you're much better off walking the owner/handler through that moment of success with his/her own dog. If necessary, trainer demos with the owner's dog first, and then returns dog to owner and walks through same.

 

I wouldn't take a class that showed videos (for the most part), and I'm a pretty motivated owner who *does* practice outside of classes.

[Guest Swifthounds]

I think people also forget that you are ALWAYS training your dog. It's not just when you pick up the clicker or "decide" it's a training moment. EVERY moment with EVERY person your dog encounters is "training." Inconsistency in the message the dog receives in what is right, wrong, expected, good, bad, whatever will lead to less predictable behaviors/training.

 

 

So true.

 

They're so beautifully interrelated, but it does frighten me how people have noted that the majority of positive change must come from the parent/owner.

 

Why?

[Guest Giselle]

If the change has to come from the individual, how on earth do we reach a large collective group effectively and generate genuine motivation? It's frightening to me because it's such a large question with implications not only in animal training but everything else in life, as well. And, despite its prevalence in virtually every other field, I haven't met any one system that has generated really great results, much less one that we can take into the field of applied animal behavior. I do think setting beginning and ending criteria and constantly evaluating success is a good foundation. Having Internet-savvy owners would help with that, too... Google Doc anyone?

[Batmom]

how on earth do we reach a large collective group effectively and generate genuine motivation?

 

 

If you're talking about a training class/course, you might start by asking or having your class signup sheet give a spot for each owner to express the thing s/he most wants to learn from the class or the problem s/he most wants to solve. They won't all be the same but if the class is designed/advertised clearly, they should all be in the same ballpark.

 

 

[MaryJane]

If the change has to come from the individual, how on earth do we reach a large collective group effectively and generate genuine motivation? It's frightening to me because it's such a large question with implications not only in animal training but everything else in life, as well. And, despite its prevalence in virtually every other field, I haven't met any one system that has generated really great results, much less one that we can take into the field of applied animal behavior. I do think setting beginning and ending criteria and constantly evaluating success is a good foundation. Having Internet-savvy owners would help with that, too... Google Doc anyone?

 

 

The change does not come from the individual -- it comes from the trainer ...

 

Do you blame the dog when he won't sit? Then why are you blaming the client when they can't get the dog to sit?

[Guest Giselle]

If the change has to come from the individual, how on earth do we reach a large collective group effectively and generate genuine motivation? It's frightening to me because it's such a large question with implications not only in animal training but everything else in life, as well. And, despite its prevalence in virtually every other field, I haven't met any one system that has generated really great results, much less one that we can take into the field of applied animal behavior. I do think setting beginning and ending criteria and constantly evaluating success is a good foundation. Having Internet-savvy owners would help with that, too... Google Doc anyone?

 

 

The change does not come from the individual -- it comes from the trainer ...

 

Do you blame the dog when he won't sit? Then why are you blaming the client when they can't get the dog to sit?

Wait... am I not interpreting these responses correctly or something? I thought everyone who replied thus far just told me that the bulk of success stems from the owner's personal/"philosophical" standing, or the person's own relationship to the dog? Didn't a whole bunch of people just tell me that success and positive change are primarily individual decisions? (or did I interpret those things totally incorrectly?!) Given those statements, I was just trying to probe a little deeper and explore how an outsider might be able to influence the owner's personal standing/help foster a stronger handler-dog relationship. In that sense, the trainer does influence the handler, but (from what I'm interpreting from all the responses) the results are ultimately the owner's prerogative. ...Somebody tell me if I'm reading correctly...

 

I do think, however, that creating beginning and end goals with clear objectives and criteria WITH owners is an effective tool, fostering better handler-dog communication and stronger relationships. I haven't ever seen this in actuality in basic obed. classes, and it'd be really interesting to see a trainer conduct a class in this manner.

 

(BTW, just to make sure people don't get the wrong idea, I'm not a dog trainer! Just very curious and interested in the subject!)