What Is The Connection

[MaryJane]

I can only speak for myself but, I did not mean to imply that you were not a caring owner or will not do what is necessary to help you pet.

 

What I did mean to say and will state again is that this has gone on quite long at this point with symptoms of choking and then moving to weakness which could signal some major medical issue (for example - could be too high protein which is causing kidney issues). The fact that you are feeding raw is another issue only because everyone gets so defensive about it -- for example, if the vet recommended stopping raw then everyone would be on that recommendation as "not understanding raw". Sometimes, it is just what it is ...

 

Yes, I understand it is tough going to the vet for issues and sometimes they don't have all the answers and it costs money but, it is better to go early and spend less than wait to long and have the costs multiply beyond a reasonable point. I used to work for a vet decades ago and many people would wait too long to go to the vet and then they either had to euthanize the pet or spend thousands. That taught me to get to the vet earlier rather than later so I would have more options.

 

For a certain symptom like diarrhea, you could wait maybe three days but, if the symptoms start cascading like it's bloody diarrhea and vomiting then you need to get in ASAP. In this case, the choking that you mentioned is hard to say how serious it is (IMHO I would have made appointment to vet but, that's me and I am a worrier) but, when it now starts to present with other symptoms like weakness then the situation becomes an ASAP to vet.

 

Again, I mean no insult on your abilities as a pet owner. You are getting hit with quite a bit .. you're pet is sick, the concern is mounting and there are differing opinions that it's hard to determine the best course of action. I'm sorry that I may be adding to any additional stress ...

 

Also, I more than welcome contrary opinions from others on the forum.

[greyhead]

{{{{Johanne}}}} We didn't mean to make you feel bad. You are clearly a fine and caring dog-mom! When most of us come to GT with situations, our implicit question, whether we say it this way or not, is "What would you do if you were me?" So often when we answer, that's what we're offering. YMMV, as they say. The fact that you may not have the best vets around you is a complicating factor. But you're not the Lone Ranger in that. (I myself recently had to sneak around behind my vet's back to see an internist because she and I vehemently disagreed on whether one of my dogs had a primary UTI or primary incontinence.)

 

Maybe some of the ON peeps can suggest a better vet. Maybe on the Health and Medical forum there are more people who would recognize what this constellation of symptoms means and can share with you the experience of their dogs. Often we take that kind of input to our vets, and it leads to better treatment, especially because greyhounds are so different from other dogs in so many ways. I think vets that don't see much of the breed have problems diagnosing them because they're so stoical in their presentation that they don't reveal as much in exams as most breeds do. If they're not gonna say Ouch...you know.

 

Please don't take this as a criticism of you! But I'm a little skeptical about the vet's telling you that Kasey just had an atypical reaction to pred, especially since you've expressed such disappointment in the vets you've seen. And I'd say that just because Kasey turned out okay last time he had this reaction on pred, it doesn't mean it's normal for him and that he'll come out okay this time. We have *all* at one time or another used that reasoning! Some of us have had cause to regret it. As one of *those* people, I'm just sharing that with you, with the best intentions, and with the hope that everything is going to be fine. It's just that a lot of us have had a bad experience with the symptoms you've mentioned, and we don't want you to have one too.

 

You've come to the right place (GT) with your concerns. Some of us have more of a taste for argument, discussion, or disagreement than others, and some are less tactful in their wording, especially sometimes those who pride themselves on their concise replies. Which would obviously not be me. And you know what can happen when words are typed rather than spoken. So I hope you'll find a way to get comfy with the culture of GT and stay with us and let us help because, I promise you, we do care very much about Kasey and about you.

[Guest LindsaySF]

I understand that your dog has a history of issues (what they are I don't know, just going by what you've said). But trouble walking, shortness of breath, feeling faint, those are not normal reactions to allergies, prednisone, or even food intolerance. They could be signs of anything from infection to a blockage, and it would have me concerned if it were my dog. Has he acted like this before? From your post it sounded like this is a new thing, which is why people on this forum expressed concern in their replies. If your vet has said those are just reactions to pred, I would be looking for a second opinion.

 

What's your purpose in feeding raw? If it's causing problems, I wouldn't do it.

Ditto. Sounds like it is causing issues.

He's 8 years old, with a weakened immune system

I wanted to highlight this point. IMO, stop the raw, now. Raw food is incredibly risky for any animal that has a weakened immune system. While healthy dogs can (usually) handle any "bugs" that might pop up in raw food, immunocompromised individuals can not. And he's on prednisone too? Pred depresses the immune system even further. No way would I give raw to a dog on pred, that's just asking for a bacterial infection. Most vets would tell you the same, it doesn't mean they are "pushing kibble by the manufacturers and are not educated in raw feeding". FYI, I'm working on my Master's in microbiology.

The only connection I've had between raw and upset stomachs is that raw has cured dogs I've had that couldn't eat anything else

I've had the opposite experience. Both with online friends, and with animals visiting the vet clinic I worked at. Raw does not work for every dog. If you are feeding raw and your dog has: 1) Episodes of vomiting/hacking, 2) Episodes of diarrhea, 3) Episodes of loss of appetite, etc, Something is WRONG. Either the food is bad (has too high a bacterial load), the dog is not chewing bones/bone fragments properly, or the dog can not handle that food/protein. Listen to your dog, watch the signs. If your dog does splendidly on raw, great! If your dog has physical symptoms like vomiting and diarrhea, the food does not agree with them, and you should change. (General "you").

 

 

By me posting his symptoms I was hoping someone may have been through this before so I can fix the poor guy.

The only vomiting issues I've had in my dogs (aside from eating something they shouldn't!) was when Rogan was on a kibble that didn't agree with him. He had some lip licking (sign of nausea), vomiting, and tummy gurgling (gas?). One night he paced too and wouldn't lay down, I was a bit freaked that he had bloat. Pepcid helped a little, as did a snack before bedtime, but switching kibbles fixed the problem. I think he might have IBS, he's always had a sensitive tummy.

 

From a vet tech and microbiologist point of view, vomiting, nausea, and inappetance in a dog fed raw brings up concerns of: 1) Bacterial infection, 2) Blockage, 3) Perforation from bone fragments. Does that mean your dog has any of those issues? Not necessarily. But I would be ruling out those conditions to make sure, as all three can be serious, even fatal, if not caught early. I hope it's just a food allergy or something more minor, I really do! But because he's on pred too, that has me a bit worried.

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

[seeh2o]

I started feeding Carl, my medically delicate flower, raw in Feb in a desperate attempt to curb problems his body was having processing cholesterol. His cholesterol is not high, his body just doesn't seem to know what to do with it (this is clearly all in layman's terms...my vet is much more eloquent). He has been doing well with it, but has had episodes of hacking/horking/barfing and a gurgling stomach. He'd horked up a scary sharp bone in yellow bile. This was when I'd started feeding him chicken feet. Claire hacked once or twice, but that was it. I emailed my vet and she felt that he might be getting too much bone. I also talked to my raw mentor and she suggested a few things for me to read. I backed off the chicken feet, actually I backed him off of all raw meaty bones for a week (he gets ground bone in his base grind). Then I added a little bit and now he gets apple cider vinegar w/his meals made of the grind, or mixed in w/muscle meat if I give him a RMB, like a turkey or duck neck. He has had no stomach gurgling, very few episodes of hacking and no barfing up bile and bones. You might want to check w/your vet to make sure the apple cider vinegar is ok w/his meds.

 

In general, take the pack mentality here on GT with a grain of salt, it's a reflection of the author(s), not you.

 

ETA, they only get 1 teaspoon of apple cider vinegar a day. I get the organic unfiltered bottles from Trader Joe's.

Edited April 24, 2011 by seeh2o

[XTRAWLD]

OK, again, thank you for your concerns and comments. I will touch on some responses step by step:

 

"trouble walking" for Kasey was that he was walking, but incredibly slow and took his time. He does this now and again on walks as well. I think it was just more prevelant to me because I'm on a heightened alert of how he was feeling that day. I don't blame him for acting off that night after finally getting his pred, since for 12 hours prior he was clearly not doing well. There is no way he would have been able to just flip a switch and be normal. NOW, if he were to continue acting that way the next morning - absolutely something is off. The slow walking, trouble peeing, acting faint - the best way I can describe that - happened on our final pee break/walk that night. He had been sleeping from 6pm to 9pm and the pred was just kicking in for him. IMO, if you were sick, and just took meds, you might be a little groggy and off until they started to work. What I worry about is now that he has had his pred, is that masking something now like an organ issue (which I wouldn't have figured by feeding raw, but clearly this can happen).

 

He has always had trouble peeing on pred, and when he would pee he would pee forever and a day. Friday just took a little longer than normal and he attempted several times before finally going. He's a finicky pee-er even on days he's not on pred. The wind has to blow the right way, the stars have to be aligned, he's just "special" to say the least. The vets and we agreed pred would be the best meds for him to handle his allergies, because other medication just wasn't working, or even had worse side effects.

 

The purpose to us switching to raw is because of his allergies. We have tried virtually every kibble out there, and raw was the first thing we haven't tried. He's allergic to everything and anything. I'm surprised he's not allergic to air. (Well dust is on his list so I guess that's close enough). We have tried bags upon bags of different kibbles that would be good for him over the course of 4 years, but there is something in each of them that just doesn't work with him - for example he's allergic to kelp - KELP! - of all things.....that in some foods is used to provide nutrition in some way/shape/form. What also didn't work with the kibble was what came out the other end was a pile of mush, or all we would smell were farts all day, and I won't even get into his attitude changes..... so we decided to go raw - almost as a last resort by now.

 

On Friday Kasey did not have this -

1) Episodes of vomiting/hacking, 2) Episodes of diarrhea, 3) Episodes of loss of appetite

He was salivating and licking his lips and swallowing. He would do this for a few minutes, and then be fine for a few minutes. At times he would try to unstuck something that was stuck in his throat....I can't call it hacking or coughing it was just almost like a clearing of the throat that something was in there. But for arguments sake - hacking is fine. He did not have bone since 3 days prior.

 

On Friday Kasey also did not have this -

From a vet tech and microbiologist point of view, vomiting, nausea, and inappetance in a dog fed raw brings up concerns of: 1) Bacterial infection, 2) Blockage, 3) Perforation from bone fragments.

He ate all his meals, was playing, walking fine, peeing/pooping normally throughout the day, but for the times he would salivate/lick/swallow/hack.

 

What I did mean to say and will state again is that this has gone on quite long at this point with symptoms of choking and then moving to weakness which could signal some major medical issue

From 5:30 am to 6pm he was still exhibiting the swallowing/licking symptoms, from 6pm to 9pm NO SYMPTOMS. Only during our 15 minutes walk he was crappy. IMO aside from the salivating all day, the worst part did occur later at night. If he was going to continue acting like that for a few more hours I agree it would be a signal for a major medical issue and we would have packed up and gone to the e-vet. If you saw him today - you wouldn't know anything happened on Friday. So I guess where I'm going with this is, he is showing no symptoms anymore - why would I take him to the vet right now? (I'm waiting for everyone to do a collective gasp) I get that they could do testing, but it's like taking your car to the mechanic when it's sputtering, but it won't sputter and do it's thing there when it has to get fixed...... Again - my concern now is that the pred may be masking other symptoms. I always thought the pred took care of everything wrong on his body, now it's almost like I have to wait for the meds to wear off before I know if he's ok again......

 

(for example - could be too high protein which is causing kidney issues).

However, thank you for pointing out the high protein causing kidney issues - I didn't know this. This is the kind of comments and suggestions I'm looking for because this is something I could have control over. Lower the protein, prevent kidney issues (of course this would not be determined until going to a vet).

 

This turned into a WAY bigger deal than I thought or wanted it to be, but now that it's out there, discuss as you wish.

[Batmom]

How do his allergies manifest? Have you had testing done?

[seeh2o]

I know this allergy article probably doesn't address all his allergy issues (i.e. dust), but it is interesting to read and, if you are in email contact w/your vet, you might send it to him/her to get an opinion on whether this might be helpful for him. This guy is a holistic vet here in LA and writes pieces fairly regularly about animals on the Huffington Post.

 

 

Dr. Richard Palmquist, Chief of Integrative Health Services at Centinela Animal Hospital, Inglewood California

Honey in Integrative Veterinary Medicine

 

Our bodies and those of our pets evolved to provide safe space, to take in good things, to expel bad things, and to find ways that we can grow and reproduce in such a way that our futures and those of our children are secured. Life works towards those major goals as it strives to survive. Once we have air and water, then food is at the base of that process. Food helps keep us safe, it provides the energy and the substances we need to grow and survive. It is our first and best medicine in the game of Life.

 

We really shouldn't neglect food as a medicine, but we do and when we do then we get all sorts of illnesses and problems just because we failed to give our bodies the precision nutrition needed.

 

Honey is a simple product, but a complex food. Plants take the energy from the sun and convert it to pollen as they work to reproduce. Pollens have protein and a wide number of compounds such as essential oils that can affect bodily systems. As bees busily go about their daily routines they mix the pollen with saliva and it becomes a concentrated food source for the bees and their offspring. Here is where the bears and bee keepers enter the picture. Honey is rich in many nutrients such as sugars (glucose and fructose), enzymes, minerals ( magnesium, potassium, sodium chloride, iron, phosphate and sulfur), vitamins (B-1, B-2, B-3, B-5, B-6, and C), several hormones and proteins of various types including the pollen grains themselves, which can contain essential oils and other phytonutrients.

 

So what does this have to do with integrative veterinary health?

 

Allergies are a significant problem in animals and people and so are wound infections -- honey provides us an interesting option for managing some of these cases. Like so many natural remedies, honey is inexpensive and readily available, so it makes sense that people share its usefulness and consider it in managing the health of both pets and people. It turns out that honey is so beneficial that drug companies are working on patenting certain types of honey for medicinal use.

 

Honey is also anti-inflammatory. This benefits healing in both exterior wounds as well as reducing inflammation in the intestinal tract. Orally administered honey has been used for many years by indigenous healers for stomach ulcers and research shows it has benefit for this problem as well as being helpful for colon inflammations such as Crohn's disease in humans.

 

This golden bee nectar is spectacular at stimulating wound healing. Application of honey to open wounds stimulates the release of powerful chemicals called "cytokines" that speed the migration of cells across the defect to bring quicker repair. Since honey is antibacterial it also makes the environment for healing more favorable and keeps bacteria from colonizing the area. This reduces scarring and infection rates and what is very exciting is that bacteria don't seem to develop resistance to honey so its effectiveness should last well into the future. This is very important as medical professionals in human and veterinary medicine work to find solutions that don't involve the use of antibiotics.

 

Like all things, honey can have some draw backs. In diabetics it can raise blood sugar and is a high glycemic food, which makes it something diabetics should avoid. It is messy to use on wounds and requires that bandages and dressings be changed daily or even twice daily. In animals it gets stuck in the fur but it is easily removed with warm water or saline.

 

Honey can contain spores from anaerobic bacteria and people worry about this transmitting botulism to infants and young children. Because of this concern people recommend limiting oral honey use to older, adult people and pets. If a person or pet is allergic to bee stings then allergic reactions can occur and caution is recommended. In rare cases it can cause skin lesions or oral ulcers resulting from food allergy. If you give honey to your pet always disclose this to your veterinarian. Consulting with your pet's veterinarian is a wise thing to do before using honey medicinally.

 

In our practice we use honey for wound healing but most often I use it for dogs suffering from pollen allergies and some gastrointestinal issues. If we give dogs a kale shake (one-half to one-third leaf of organic kale blended with water or broth and fed daily for medium to large dogs) and one tsp of honey for larger dogs daily we see some dogs become less itchy in two to four weeks. In humans with hay fever this has long been known. It doesn't work for all cases but it can be amazing.

 

One of my favorite stories involved a Sharpei dog that had severe chronic ear infections. The owner had long suffered from expensive, repetitive infections of the dog's skin and ears. His ears were so bad that the veterinarians on the case were considering surgery. Luckily, he responded in about 30 days to a teaspoon of local honey given orally each day. When the owner ran out of local honey the symptoms returned in about three weeks, so he had to take it for the rest of his life, but when he was on his honey his skin and ears were perfect.

 

Your pet's immune system is organized very well for defense. About 70 percent of the total immune system is surrounding the intestinal tract at any given time. This is necessary to protect your pet from invasion of bacteria, viruses and fungi from the gut. A population of specialized cells called "dendritic cells" monitor the proteins that enter the body through the gut. They develop tolerance to those things we eat. This protects the body against over acting immune responses to foreign proteins such as allergies. It appears that when certain people and pets eat honey, it decreases inflammation in the intestinal tract and leads these dendritic cells to produce information bulletins that advise the body that the pollen is being eaten and not to over react. When pollen enters the nose or lungs or skin, then the signals from those dendritic cells seem to calm the allergy symptoms down. This is called "oral tolerance."

 

We can all use a bit more tolerance, but if you are suffering from allergies, then oral tolerance is especially nice to develop!

 

It is important that the honey be local, organic and not be heat treated. Heating changes the honey's natural components which destroy delicate enzymes and other chemicals we haven't even identified yet in science. Local honey is best because it contains the specific pollens from your area that may sensitize and lead a pet to have allergies. Here is Southern California we are lucky to have many farmers markets and we have many bee keepers. One of my favorite honeys to recommend is Honey Pacifica. They have several types including eucalyptus (trees bloom several times yearly depending on the type), Brazilian pepper tree, and Orange tree. If you watch what trees or flowers are blooming when your pet's allergies flare then you can look for honey that contains those pollens.

 

Honey is sweet. It's a gift from Nature. Think about how powerfully simple it is to eat better and more naturally and to become stronger and healthier for doing that simple thing. And as you do those things for your pet, consider taking some steps for yourself and your family. Find good integrative health care practitioners and take responsibility for your health. If we work on those basic rules of Life -- create and maintain safe space, put good things in that space and eliminate bad things, then we can improve many aspects of life on planet Earth. You might find yourself feeling better and smiling more as you jog along with that fuzzy, smiling mutt.

 

That is health reform that we can all live with!

[MaryJane]

You've provided quite a bit more background about the food allergies issues that you face and I can see why you have decided to try raw but, did you consider just doing a cooked home-made diet where you can control all the ingredients? One of mine also has food sensitivities (chicken and noodles) and as a result, I home cook for both of mine.

 

As mentioned by others, feeding an immune compromised dog a raw diet could be a risk because of the bacteria that while it might be OK for a healthy dog might cause severe issues in an immune-compromised dog.

 

Also, when I reread your recent reply, there were additional symptoms being mentioned of swallowing/licking" in addition to the choking. This starts to get indicative of bloat (gas building up). I hate to even bring this up but in that case, sometimes dogs will also extend out their neck and they may make hacking sounds. They also can't get comfortable - they lie down and get up immediately.

 

As someone has mentioned, post this instead in H&M and get more responses from a medical rather than the food/diet perspective.

[Guest mcsheltie]

Just catching up and wanted to add a couple things.

 

High protein does not cause kidney problems. High protein is only a problem in advanced kidney failure. Raw feeding is not a high protein diet. In fact it is much lower than most good quality processed food. Both kibble and canned. A dog's natural diet is meat. Raw feeding is more biologically appropriate that any other manner of feeding dogs. Meat provides the amount of protein nature intended a dog to eat.

 

A blanket statement that raw feeding is dangerous for a dog with immune problems is wrong on many levels. If their immune problem is a food allergy, especially if it has progressed to IBD, raw feeding may be the only diet they can tolerate. Countless dogs with IBD that does not stem from food allergies have been not only been helped, but thrive on a raw diet. If the problem is environmental allergies, raw feeding has no bearing whatsoever. Raw feeding only needs to be taken into consideration when dog's immune system is unable to mount a normal defense to a bacteria overload. Allergies are opposite. Allergic reactions are the result of a hypersensitive immune system. The "allergic immune system" misidentifies a harmless substance as harmful, and then attacks the substance with a response far greater than is required. Vets often say do not feed a cancer patient a raw diet, their immune system may not be able to handle it. I have fed every cat & dog I have had a raw diet (and unfortunately there have been quite a few) and each one has thrived on it until the disease took its toll.

[Guest LindsaySF]

A blanket statement that raw feeding is dangerous for a dog with immune problems is wrong on many levels.

I didn't say that. I said a dog with a compromised or weakened immune system. Dogs on prednisone, by definition, have a compromised immune system. Dog in question has a "weakened immune system", owner's words.

 

If food allergies are a concern in a dog with a weakened immune system, and finding an appropriate kibble is difficult, then home-cooking should be the next step. Raw food introduces the risk of pathogens, why take that risk? For a healthy dog maybe, but not a dog with a weakened immune system. Cook the meat, kill any potential bugs, introduce one protein source at a time.

 

 

 

 

To the OP, I am glad that Casey seems better now. The symptoms you saw on Friday would have me very concerned. If they occur again, I would bring him to the vet. Hopefully whatever his issue was has passed. But it does not sound like a reaction to pred, it sounds like something else. The pred could be masking his symptoms. I hope you find the cause. If you don't feel comfortable with your vet, or you think they are just trying to get money out of you, I would find a new vet. It's important to be able to trust your vet.

 

About the bone, you don't always see symptoms immediately after. Even if the last bone was 3 days prior, it can still cause problems. A friend of mine has a pit bull that ate a pair of rubber gloves out of her kitchen sink. She found pieces in his poop, but never did find enough for 2 whole gloves. Would you believe that 3 MONTHS later, he puked up the other glove? I wouldn't have believed it either. Her vet said it is indeed possible. If it's not blocking the passage of food, it can sit in there and not cause a blockage or any symptoms, until the day that it does. Sometimes there is a delayed reaction to that type of stuff. That's an extreme example obviously, but delayed reactions do happen.

 

In regards to his allergies, have you had allergy testing done? Do you know what specific food items he is allergic to? Have you tried an elimination diet? I had to try a bunch of kibbles before I found one that worked for Rogan. I also dewormed him a bunch of times, that helped his pudding poo.

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

 

[Guest mcsheltie]

Lindsay- I didn't read your post. But since you brought it up the OP has been trying to tell everyone her dog has allergies - Owners's words in two different posts:

Actually, Kasey has been seen by multiple vets over the course of the years to first determine what was wrong with him and then to control his allergies

 

~~~~~~~~~

 

He did this once before, years ago, and I thought his throat was closing up because of allergies. Gave him his meds....away it went. He has been doing so well on raw, I have nearly forgotten that he occasionally still needs prednisone.

 

This chin is "puffy" and he's scratching - clearly that is a sign to us to give him his prednisone.

 

~~~~~~~~~

 

A dog with allergies does not have a weakened immune system. A dog with allergies has a hypersensitive immune system. A dog with allergies is able to mount a response to bacteria or viral assault.

 

The dose of Pred that is given in these circumstances does not keep a dog from being able to mount a response to bacteria. The amount of Pred needed to make feeding a raw diet risky would shut the immune system down to the point where any exposure to bacteria or virus would be dangerous.

[Guest Lovey_Hounds]

Im sorry you are having to go through all this with your hound, its not fun when they are not doing well.

you said you are doing raw to help with allergies right? and he is a retired racer? have you considered feeding ground beef as your raw source, that is what they eat at the track and the farms.

I do raw and kibble with my hounds and i have stopped adding bones in to my older hounds food because of a few issues i give them small chunks or ground up meat sometimes with bone ground in and sometimes not. if you are worried about having the nutrients from the bone there are suppliments you can add in that do the same thing. If i do give bones i give them larger ones to chew in the yard which agrees with them much more than in with their dinner.

With the smaller pieces of meat it digests faster/easier and i have noticed Vegas doesnt throw up or gag/cough a lot after dinner when he is fed the smaller chunks and well D.C never chews at all we dont have to deal with her choking durring dinner anymore. when we are feeding raw we only do Beef, chicken and on special occasions bison, i tried doing turkey and had some similar issues with Vegas. I now feed my hounds a similar diet to what they were fed at their farms and that seems to work the only major difference is where i get my meat.

 

everyone chooses to feed differently, just try to find what works for your hound and hpoefully the issues stop.

[Batmom]

I'm with Lindsay on this one. If the dog is having the type of problems you describe, I'd cook the elimination diet (no bone of course). There's no particular benefit to raw in this situation and significant potential downside.

[sweetdogs]

Any chance Kasey could have laryngeal paralysis?

 

Seeh2o mentioned a raw feeding mentor: do you have anyone you're working with?

[Guest mcsheltie]

I'm with Lindsay on this one. If the dog is having the type of problems you describe, I'd cook the elimination diet (no bone of course). There's no particular benefit to raw in this situation and significant potential downside.

What are the potential hazards?

[Batmom]

Dog has shown some digestive difficulties on the current diet. You'd want to minimize bacterial contamination and irritation from bone until the dog's current problems are sorted out. Can't see a reason not to minimize those things.

 

Apart from that, while the swelling suggests allergy (histamine reaction), the atypical reaction to pred strongly suggests an infective process as well.

[Guest Swifthounds]

Just catching up and wanted to add a couple things.

 

High protein does not cause kidney problems. High protein is only a problem in advanced kidney failure. Raw feeding is not a high protein diet. In fact it is much lower than most good quality processed food. Both kibble and canned. A dog's natural diet is meat. Raw feeding is more biologically appropriate that any other manner of feeding dogs. Meat provides the amount of protein nature intended a dog to eat.

 

A blanket statement that raw feeding is dangerous for a dog with immune problems is wrong on many levels. If their immune problem is a food allergy, especially if it has progressed to IBD, raw feeding may be the only diet they can tolerate. Countless dogs with IBD that does not stem from food allergies have been not only been helped, but thrive on a raw diet. If the problem is environmental allergies, raw feeding has no bearing whatsoever. Raw feeding only needs to be taken into consideration when dog's immune system is unable to mount a normal defense to a bacteria overload. Allergies are opposite. Allergic reactions are the result of a hypersensitive immune system. The "allergic immune system" misidentifies a harmless substance as harmful, and then attacks the substance with a response far greater than is required. Vets often say do not feed a cancer patient a raw diet, their immune system may not be able to handle it. I have fed every cat & dog I have had a raw diet (and unfortunately there have been quite a few) and each one has thrived on it until the disease took its toll.

 

 

Dog has shown some digestive difficulties on the current diet. You'd want to minimize bacterial contamination and irritation from bone until the dog's current problems are sorted out. Can't see a reason not to minimize those things.

 

Apart from that, while the swelling suggests allergy (histamine reaction), the atypical reaction to pred strongly suggests an infective process as well.

 

The OP can correct me if I'm wrong, but digestive problems was the reasoning behind thR switch to raw, not a result of it. A dog having digestive issues on kibble won't be magically sorted out in a few weeks on any new diet.

 

It could be an atypical faction to pred, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's an atypical reaction for this dog. Either way, the raw diet isn't the source of the atypical symptoms.

[Batmom]

The dogs are evidencing stomach irritation. No one with a grain of sense would subject them to a high bacterial load and bone in that context. There's no benefit to doing that.

 

If there's a need for an elimination diet due to suspected food allergy or food intolerance, best would be to select one protein source, cook it, and feed it exclusively.

 

Non-IBD/IBS digestive disturbances are going to respond to appropriate food more quickly than, say, itchy skin. Usually within 48-72 hours. But if there's been trauma to esophagus, stomach, intestines, then that has to heal, and you could have a secondary infection going on. In those cases, assuming the dog isn't so debilitated as to require vet care and assuming you're feeding something that doesn't cause further irritation, you'd expect to see improvement within a week.

[Guest Swifthounds]

There's no particular advantage to cooking one's single meat source.

[Batmom]

Sure there is: Reduction of bacterial load and in some cases -- tho not often for most raw feeders in this country -- elimination of parasites.

[Guest Swifthounds]

That would make sense if she was feeding humans.

[Batmom]

It also makes sense if she's feeding dogs, particularly dogs who have shown signs of not being entirely well.

[Guest greyhound9797]

Any chance Kasey could have laryngeal paralysis?

 

Seeh2o mentioned a raw feeding mentor: do you have anyone you're working with?

LP came to my mind as well but Piper didn't have the exact same symptoms that Kasey is exhibiting so I kind of brushed it off. It wouldn't hurt for you to check out the LP Yahoo group. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/LP/?yguid=319401874

 

I didn't read Seeh20's full response but after reading all of XTRAWILDs posts and frustration I was thinking how nice it would be for her, and anyone new to raw, to have a mentor. I just might have to create a mentor list...

 

 

Sandra in FL

[Guest Swifthounds]

I didn't read Seeh20's full response but after reading all of XTRAWILDs posts and frustration I was thinking how nice it would be for her, and anyone new to raw, to have a mentor. I just might have to create a mentor list...

 

 

Sandra in FL

 

That's a very good idea. I trade emails and advice with lots of newbies , but never had a formal mentor or formally mentored myself.

[XTRAWLD]

Thanks for all your comments, I have read them all, but can't comment on everything...so to touch on a few that I can recall: Thank you for all of your suggestions.

 

We used to give Kasey honey but never really stuck with it. However after that post on the weekend, we again started giving him a teaspoon of honey a day, plus I have some, hubby has some....Ryder gets to lick the spoon...it's a win win. It is local and we have a friend that makes and distributes it so it is easily accessible. I do think it's a hidden gem in the world of potential medical super foods!

 

His allergies are food and environmental, which makes life with him to become allergy free nearly impossible. We only had blood testing done because we could not keep him off pred long enough (6-8 weeks) to be able to do the skin testing. While we understand it is not as accurate as skin testing, we had to think about how he would be for 6 weeks without pred....it's not pretty and we feel horrible when we see him scratching his brains out (almost literally) and even see blood splatters on the wall when we come home. A list of major allergens include chicken, oatmeal, dust, tobacco smoke, soy, grass (lovely I know)..... He would literally be scratching himself to bleed everywhere, focused on the head, especially on his ears. The vet originally thought he had scabies because of how bad his ears looked (this is before getting him on pred). I switched to raw because the kibble and exclusive feeding was exhaustive. Yes, we've been there done that, tried almost all avenues. Sure I could live with giving him pred the rest of his life, but why not try something that we haven't yet = here comes in the raw.

 

Aside from his issue on Friday and even Ryder's bile, the dogs really are doing phenomenal for being 3 weeks in. Small poops, no farting, Kasey has gained weight, incredibly hard when on pred which he has been for 4 years. I swear Kasey looks at me and smiles, his attitude is way better, he's not just a lump on the floor anymore, he seems genuinely happy. Beautiful glossy eyes, the teeth get better by the day, and now that spring is here they are blowing out their coats and all the dander with it and they are getting softer. Ryder - I haven't noticed as much of a change, maybe cause he's still new to us, but the farting has decreased as has the poop size in general, nice eyes (the whites of them are beautiful) as are his teeth, they are coming along well, very little doggy breath.

 

I have a mentor, but am also trying to pull my resources from other areas, this forum, other people feeding raw that I'm in contact with.