Need Food Suggestions...

[4My2Greys]

Perhaps you've not fed a variety of commercial and whole food sourced diets to carnivores and studied the differences. Everything from wild cats and other large carnivores to wolves, dogs, and domestic cats have different body composition tendencies on different diets. If source of calories had no impact on body composition, your body would look exactly the same on 2500 pasta calories versus 2500 beef calories - and it does not. The before and after photos of some of the GTers from the Primal thread are a good human study.

 

Humans do use cooked grains "quite well" - they just do so to the detriment of their overall health. Dogs have neither the salivary acids, grinding teeth, or comparatively long GI tracts necessary to do much with grains other than pass them on through. To the extent a dog needs carbs, what it needs is glucose that the body can store in liver and muscle tissue as glycogen. Carnivores need glucose/glycogen for energy, but they don't need (or even ideally) get it from vegetation, complex carbs, or grains.

 

Popular myths, I'm afraid.

 

I like science instead .

 

Edit because on further thought I don't want to be a part of continuing this debate. Maybe we could get back to helping the OP with her problem instead of turning this thread into a grains are good, grains are bad debate.

Edited March 20, 2011 by 4My2Greys

[Batmom]

That is science. Science you ignore or don't like is still science.

 

Nope. Can't find any of it (that hasn't been thoroughly debunked) in reputable scientific sources.

[Batmom]

Best advice for OP is here:

The way for you to figure this out is to compare the ingredient list of the foods that caused the itching to the ingredient list of Acana & Orijen. For starters the other foods you mentioned have grain, Acana & Orijen do not. But also check protein sources and other ingredients. Anything could be the cause.

 

Each kibble will have the kcals listed on the bag. Calorie intake, not the protein content will dictate of they loose or gain weight. If what you were previously feeding has more kcals than Acana or Orijen, then your dogs will loose weigh if fed the same amount. Be sure to use the same kcal measurement when comparing, e.g. kcals per cup or kcals per kg

 

What I do when I suspect a food allergy or intolerance (different things but equally annoying for the person and the pet) is make a spreadsheet or chart of ingredients of the foods I've fed and what the results have been. I put each food in a column and try to line up the same ingredients going across the chart so it's easier to see what the common elements and differences are. I usually don't list vitamins and minerals but do list other additives like Yucca, Rosemary extract, etc.

 

*Usually* the culprit won't be something that's common to all the foods fed, but occasionally a given dog might do fine with a little chicken, for example, but not a lot of chicken.

 

Like mcsheltie, I start with the calories per cup (or per kilogram; sometimes that's easier) listed on the bag. If Current Food has twice as many calories per cup as New Food, I'll start out feeding twice as much of New Food. That is really just a starting point, though. I've found that some foods with very high calories per cup don't go through my dogs that way, particularly when getting into the > 450 kcal/cup foods. So I watch their weight over a couple of weeks and adjust as needed.

[4My2Greys]

Lamb was also an ingredient in the foods that were causing problems, but not in the Orijen, unless the Red variety was being fed, or the Acana, unless Grasslands was being fed.

[Guest Swifthounds]

Edit because on further thought I don't want to be a part of continuing this debate. Maybe we could get back to helping the OP with her problem instead of turning this thread into a grains are good, grains are bad debate.

 

That's a very good idea. Honestly, I think most of the best advice was early in the thread, before the name calling by some and the inability to disagree without ignorantly declaring science to be not science.

 

The best thing you can do with reactions to food is look at the ingredients and look at the patterns of reactions. As I wrote above, grain free kibbles can have issues of their own in this area simply because many of them have a larger number of different ingredients (some, though not all), which can be infuriatingly frustrating to sort through even when you think you know the source of the problem. Also, it's good to get a source for ingredient terminology. Some things don't sound like they are versions of a suspect ingredient, but really are. That has been the source of much frustration for folks with dogs sensitive to things like corn, soy, and chicken, which can all be found in ingredient lists in ways that don't make obvious what they are. You can also try mixing a food that's a good fit in all ways but kcals with another food with higher kcals, if you can find a higher kcal food that doesn't cause an issue.

[maggiespet]

Taste of the Wild (Prairie) is grain-free and has 3750k/cal (whatever that means). That's a much higher k/cal(and I still don't really know what that means) than most of the other kibble bags I read. And my dogs LOVE it. Good luck !

[Greytlady94]

Taste of the Wild (Prairie) is grain-free and has 3750k/cal (whatever that means). That's a much higher k/cal(and I still don't really know what that means) than most of the other kibble bags I read. And my dogs LOVE it. Good luck !

 

 

370 kcal per cup.

 

 

[GreytNut]

My hounds have done fabulously well on Taste of the Wild. We alternate between High Prairie (buffalo and venison) and Pacific Stream (fish). I wasn't as impressed with the Wetlands (waterfowl) formula. They enjoy TOTW, their body/coat condition is great and my girl with wheat allergies doesn't projectile vomit. It is relatively inexpensive compared to Orijen. For treats I give Natural Balance Limited Ingredient biscuits (they're really enjoying the sweet potato and fish) or Zuke's Hip Action Beef soft chews.

[Guest PawPrintsLife]

For anyone in the 48 US states, I highly, highly recommend the best holistic food I know of. I've seen it work over and over to end apparent allergy symptoms, help dogs maintain normal weight, solve skin and coat issues, and much more. It's formulated by a very highly regarded holistic vet who has specialized in dog and cat nutrition for about 30 years.

 

Best of all, the food is shipped directly to you, so it is never subjected to the dreadful conditions in so many warehouses. Nor is it months and months old, like food you buy in stores. When you receive it, it is always less than eight weeks from production, and it has been handled only by the company until it goes to UPS or the USPS for delivery.

 

This food contains the highest quality ingredients I've found anywhere, including prebiotics, guaranteed live probiotics, chelated minerals, excellent protein sources, and more.

 

My husband and I have seen such good results from this family of products that we decided we had to represent them. Our greyhounds and cat have been thriving on them for nearly two years. 

 

Rebecca

 

(Greyhounds Logan, Zelda, and Jordie; Mackerel Tabby Lucy)

Edited April 20, 2011 by GreyTzu
Link removed.

[XTRAWLD]

We still struggle for a couple years now trying to get Kasey's allergies under control. My recommendation if you think it is an allergy, is get it confirmed - we were only able to do a blood testing version, because Kasey wasn't able to stay off meds long enough to do the skin testing. Once the blood is examined (while it is not as sure fire reliable as a skin test) you at least know what major triggers your dog has and you should "try" to avoid those. Clearly being allergic to grass - yup, Kasey is - it's hard to get away from. The only thing you can control is the food, environmental is incredibly tricky...dust...ya he's allergic to that too.

 

We got him onto a Limited Ingredient Diet, like others have suggested Natural Balance - they have a fantastic variety, the quality is decent, and honestly is less expensive than some others sold at the vet. He would tolerate the Sweet Potato and Fish the best. It really is trial and error even on that stuff. Venison went right through him and Lamb gives him incredible gas, you just have to try and see.

 

After being on it for a while, I noticed his weight loss, and I got really concerned. We did take him to the vet and he told us to monitor his weight - well no kidding - but he did take a look at the ingredient listing and admitted - "you could add a leather shoe to this and get the percentages for crude max/mins, etc". Nice huh? He added however, that Natural Balance was a fantastic brand. Not only is Kasey on prednisone to control the allergies, he's on LID I then finally found a food, off of his preferred listing, and he's on that now. I was worried that the LID was SO limited that he wasn't getting enough nutrients which is why he lost weight. That's just my belief anyway.

 

We really have run the gammut with different bags - it's all trial and error. If your dog isn't doing well on the food after about a week (for me, not doing well is just constantly bad bowel movements - take the manufacter/retailer up on the return policy. Most will let you return the unused portion if your dog isn't doing well on it, and get your money back. But be careful about switching foods frequently, i.e. give it at least a good 1 or 2 weeks for their system to get accustomed to the change, before giving up on that brand and starting a new bag.

 

He seems to have stabilized now on the Holistic Blend he's currently on - but I'm considering raw because of everything we've been through with this poor guy. What's another change now that we are so far along anyway

[Guest zookieninasmom]

OK, I've read through the comments and I want to thank everyone for their input.

 

we've fed orijen red meat and acana prairie whatever its called, lol.

 

Its not lamb, its not even necessarily a grain. They were both fine for years on techni-cal, then suddenly they couldn't handle it. I have a feeling its some change to the food thats recent. Acana is fine, Orijen is fine, except their weight is now seeming to be an issue. It could be normal muscle loss - they are getting older. Or it could be the food. I also don't think we can continue to spend $95 + for the Orijen red meat once we move because its going to be so expensive for us to begin with, and we are going down to one income.

I have made a list of the suggested foods and will look at similarities and differences in price, kcal, ingredients (possible allergens?) and what they may like. They can't have chicken, we know that already (although they seem to be able to handle a small amount sometimes, I noticed the techni-cal has some in it and it was fine for so long).

Thank you everyone for your help.

 

I don't mind the idea of raw, but it doesn't work in our household. We have a one year old and I just can't have raw meat out without seriously sanitizing everything afterwards. We're also working towards being vegetarians again. I know our dogs are not, but we don't like cooking or handling meat. I think it might be good for our dogs, but we won't do it.

 

ETA - proteins cause allergies. and a blood test is not definitive. Just because you have antibodies (what the blood test detects) to something does not mean you're allergic to it, just that you've been exposed.

Edited March 22, 2011 by zookieninasmom

[4My2Greys]

Just a suggestions, but TOTW is a very reasonable priced food that many members on here are feeding with good success. They make 4 different formulas so you should be able to find one that will work. As far as weight loss goes remember each dog is different and may require more or less than what the packaging guidelines tell you to feed. For example, Nadir weighs 69 lbs and I have to feed him 4 cups everyday. This amount is in the midrange according to the packaging of what you would feed an 80-100lb dog, which happens to also be the same amount I feed my 100lb bulldog Bruiser. I feed the Pacific Stream version and a bag which runs about $46 with tax will last 1 month for him. I too used to feed Orijen 6 Fish and the Red, but like you it just got too expensive, especially when feeding 4. I also understand your reasons for not wanting to do raw.

[XTRAWLD]

Kasey was fed Iams (Chicken) for YEARS and he suddenly developed allergies. It happened, just like that.

 

Kibble that I was pleased to buy him cause it looked GREAT on paper, just didn't work with his body. I'm sure you have a great list going already, so start there. With my experience, even trying to avoid grains, by-product, "meal", it just never worked because of how bad Kasey's allergies really are. Prednisone will likely be in his life, for life, we just try to make him as comfortable as possible.

 

Best of luck and keep us updated.

[Guest Swifthounds]

OK, I've read through the comments and I want to thank everyone for their input.

 

we've fed orijen red meat and acana prairie whatever its called, lol.

 

Its not lamb, its not even necessarily a grain. They were both fine for years on techni-cal, then suddenly they couldn't handle it. I have a feeling its some change to the food thats recent. Acana is fine, Orijen is fine, except their weight is now seeming to be an issue. It could be normal muscle loss - they are getting older. Or it could be the food. I also don't think we can continue to spend $95 + for the Orijen red meat once we move because its going to be so expensive for us to begin with, and we are going down to one income.

I have made a list of the suggested foods and will look at similarities and differences in price, kcal, ingredients (possible allergens?) and what they may like. They can't have chicken, we know that already (although they seem to be able to handle a small amount sometimes, I noticed the techni-cal has some in it and it was fine for so long).

Thank you everyone for your help.

 

I wish you lots of success with finding a workable diet. It doesn't sound like it's a meat sensitivity causing your issues. The irritant could be a particular filler ingredient, or simply the amount of them. With the long list of ingredients, it has to be daunting. An affordable food with a small number of ingredients might be a good place to start. I'm sure folks here can suggest some. I can't imagine paying $95 for kibble. Ouch.

 

I don't mind the idea of raw, but it doesn't work in our household. We have a one year old and I just can't have raw meat out without seriously sanitizing everything afterwards. We're also working towards being vegetarians again. I know our dogs are not, but we don't like cooking or handling meat. I think it might be good for our dogs, but we won't do it.

 

Yeah, the "yuck" factor makes that decision for a lot of people (about things other than raw feeding as well). For you or anyone else out there that might be concerned, there's nothing about raw feeding that requires more/better sanitation procedures than any other domestic handling of meat or fresh vegetables, whether or not you have someone present who's old and frail, a small child, and/or immune compromised. Lots of us are also vegetarians (more than you would think, really).

[Guest zookieninasmom]

We're going to try to get taste of the wild and try it ASAP. Thanks for your tips. We'll start there and see how it goes. Its cheaper than the acana and the orijen, and it sounds like it works great for others, so, thats where we'll start!

 

about the raw - its the sanitation at all thats a concern for us. We hate handling any raw meat to begin with, and the whole kitchen gets sanitized afterwards, to have to worry about dog bowls, wherever the meat may have dripped on the floor, the dogs keeping the food IN the bowls and DS not getting into anything before I get it cleaned, is just too much. DH is an immunologist/microbiologist, I don't know if that explains it enough or not, but he's very nit-picky about cleaning up after meat handling, and he's spread that pickiness to me!

[Guest Swifthounds]

Just FYI most people who feed raw do not use bowls. I actually feed outdoors most of the year.

 

I'm kinda glad I'm not a microbiologist. A good friend is one and, well, if you think raw meat is icky, never start thinking about what you track in on your shoes. My friend did some testing in his own home and it was freaky. After that I asked him just not to share.

 

Me, I've had salmonella twice - both from vegetables served in good restaurants.

 

Lots of folks here feed TOTW formulas and can help you tweak amounts and varieties.

[Guest zookieninasmom]

Oh shoes are a huge issue here, especially since both of us work in labs. They don't come past the entryway and DS isn't allowed anywhere near the front door, lol. Its nasty! DHs mom wore shoes in the house and it made me crazy! We can't feed outside here in Canada because of the snow and cold, but where we're moving, we might be able to.

[BootsyCollins]

We feed TOTW bison and Bootsy does quite well on it. Good luck with your move and finding a good food!

[Guest FreddyGirl]

Wishing you best of luck in your search for the perfect food. Been there done that with my 2 girls who needed to lose weight, and with a very picky girl. My dogs LOVED TOTW wild fowl, might not work for your pups. Heard a lot of good reviews on their salmon, might work for the pups and your vegetarian home.

 

HANG in there, you will find something soon that won't "hurt" your wallet too.

[Guest zookieninasmom]

Thank you!

Not vegetarian yet, but thinking about heading that way, for health reasons.

[Guest FreddyGirl]

I am also headed that way, but will never be a full fledge vegetarian. I rarely eat meat anymore, focusing more on beans, whole grains and vegetables. This is for health reasons and also because I've lost the desire for most meat. Have not given up lean hamburgers, 94% lean, pricey, but worth it!! I am additcted to Chipotle Black Bean Burgers from Morningstar Home, I believe that is the name. they are scrumptious!!!n With low fat cheese and salsa on a whole wheat low carb tortilla!!! DId you say ,"Please sir, I want some more?"

[Guest zookieninasmom]

Black bean burgers? That sounds amazing and just up my DH's alley!!! I'll have to look for them when we move, are they just sold in grocery stores? I have to watch for dairy content because of allergies, but something like that, I doubt, has dairy!

[Guest FreddyGirl]

Yes, in frozen food section. But, I get them in bulk at BJs Warehouse,oike COSTCO, much more reasonable too. I am also lactose intolerant, no problems with them here!!

[Guest zookieninasmom]

ooooh sounds wonderful! Lactose intolerance is different than a dairy allergy, but by the sounds of it, they'd be fine! I'll definitely look for them.

[Guest zookieninasmom]

Ok, so here's an update. When we got here to Maryland we were trying to find Taste of the Wild and couldn't (and no internet connection at the time) so we went with Natural Balance. I think its the fish and sweet potato. They were pooping a TON. DH said he used like 10 bags one walk alone, for 2 dogs. Zooks would have to go first thing in the morning and would often poop in our room before we could even get him outside. So, I found TOTW at Pet Valu, not too far away from us. They're doing great on it. They seem to like it, I haven't heard any complaints from DH, and no more morning accidents since the switch. We tried to gradually change, but it wasn't working so we went straight to it and they're doing great, and seem to really like it.

 

Thank you so much for the suggestions. We'll see how their weight changes with the new food. Hopefully they gain a little and start looking a bit better. They look so skinny now! Granted, they were a tad overweight before, especially Nina.