Clomipramine Prescription

[Laurenbiz]

I think many of you on Greytalk may know my SA issue with Bernie. I'm here to tell you that we've now sought help from a vet, and we got a prescription for Clomipramine today.

 

Bernie tinkles every time he's alone! I've kept record, too, of the good times he was alone - he only had 5 good times in December, 2 in January, and I think 2 or 3 times each in October and in November. (We got him in October.)

 

Here is the laundry list of everything we've tried: Crate training, alone training, obedience training to increase confidence, desensitizing anxiety triggers, NPR radio, TV, regular music radio, calming dog music, Yanni music, Justin and I having a conversation on a recording, curtains open and closed, two daily walks - always a morning walk, multiple potty breaks, ignoring him 30 min. before leaving and ignoring him for 10-15 min. after we come back, toys and treats while alone, DAP pheromone wet wipes and spray, Rescue Remedy, throwing our dirty clothes into his crate with him so he smells us, and I think that's it.

 

We tried him without the crate for a few weeks. We came home to puddles on our carpet or in the middle of the kitchen floor. We tried barricading him in the kitchen using a bunch of chairs, (safe room,) but he managed to get past our barricade by clawing up the back of the couch and squeezing into the living room! (And making a wet spot on the floor in the living room.)

 

We enrolled him in the Greyhound-Only Obedience Class back in December. We thought this would help with his confidence. Even though he has gotten better with the training commands, he still has his SA.

 

We've been working with desensitizing the triggers that make him think we're leaving. BUT, he's trembling and scared when we do this, so he won't accept treats. (He also does not eat his Kong or any treats we leave him when we're alone - he is too scared alone and will totally ignore food!)

 

After a bad experience this past weekend, Justin and I had a serious talk. We visited the vet this evening, and he gave us a prescription for Clomipramine - 25mg.

 

Sigh...and this is where we currently stand.

[Busderpuddle]

I started Ruby on this medication 10 days ago and it has already started to help her. She no longer tears her bed up while we are gone and the drool puddles are now non-existent. She also will go right in to her crate instead of us having to haul her in there. The only thing I have noticed is that she now pants a few times a day for no reason. The vet says they are not worried about that. She is on 60mg a day. I now wonder if her dose is too high? Always something to worry about.

I wish you luck and am looking forward to hearing about your experience with this.

[PrairieProf]

No advice as I have no experience with any of this -- just sending you very good thoughts and commendations for your hard work. I know I've been really lucky as half-sister Beth has never had SA. The medication certainly sounds reasonable to try.

 

My only question is, you're sure you've done the alone training/densensitization slowly enough and in tiny increments enough? I've ask only because I've read the Patricia McConnell I'll Be Home Soon and I know how she stresses the importance of getting the technique exactly right and really really taking your time with every little piece.

[PatricksMom]

Good luck. If this doesn't work/doesn't sit well with him, our dogsitter had the same problem with her male greyhound and one of the SSRI's (whichever one you give dogs) solved the problem.

[greysmom]

It will still take a couple weeks for a clinical amount to build up in his system. Do not expect a miracle. All the rx does is put them in a better state of mind to accept behavior modfication training. When you begin to see an improvement in his behavior, you will need to begin again with Alone Training as if you've never done it with him.

 

If the clomipramaine does not seem to be working after a good trial, you may need to switch to another one, or another type of anti-anxiety drug. Not every drug works the same for every dog, same as with people.

 

Good luck.

[seeh2o]

What Greysmom said! Clomipramaine is a great tool in the tool box, but like she said, there is a lot of work to be done while they are on the meds. It allows them to learn new ways to cope with their anxiety and to learn that it is ok when you leave. Don't make the mistake of taking him off of it as soon as you see improvement, it takes a while for the newly learned coping mechanisms to to become second nature, a habit. As a friend who was a wise therapist told me one day, "All new behavior is false", meaning that it needs to be repeated over and over - with success for it to become second nature...a habit...incorporated into the natural repertoire of behavior. I wish I'd left Carl on it for a couple of more months. There will always be some backsliding off the medication, but fortunately for Carl and I it has never gone back and stayed as bad as it was. Though he will always have a low level of SA...especially at home. He's nearly perfect when left at my s/o's house!

[Guest twhitehouse]

Yes, what Greysmom said exactly. Alone training, alone training, alone training! The medication alone won't help him, it should be viewed as a tool that helps the training sink in for him.

 

Please let us know how it goes and ask us for any help!

[Guest Giselle]

When we give medications to dogs to reduce aggression or fear, (honestly) we don't really know what we're doing. Dogs' mental states, unfortunately, aren't a very high priority for pharmaceutical research. From the information that I've gleaned from multiple vet behaviorists and behavioral conferences is that the most we can say about medication is: "It seems to work based on uncontrolled experiments and patient anecdotes." Based on the medication's properties, we can sort of guesstimate what should happen to a dog. And if we do see differences in behaviors, we can extrapolate how that may have come about via the medication. But that's a very backwards way of looking at medical science, and it's not how we should be doing it. But.. considering the current state of affairs, that's the best we can do.

 

So my point is: I've used medication for my dog before. I know a lot of other people who have, too. Does it "work"? Well, there's no publishes literature that says it should definitely produce a positive, calming effect on a dog. But there are a lot of people and patients who think that it does. Most vet behaviorists, however, take extreme caution before prescribing medication, mostly because we don't know what's going on! So, use caution, and ALWAYS choose behavioral/environmental modification first. With a tricyclic antidepressant like Clomipramine, you need to keep your dog on it for an extended amount of time (I was told 1 year is the standard). Using it as a temporary aid and stopping cold turkey can make the behaviors worsen.

 

Above all, it's about training. Tough, I know! Training is hard! But it's training that counts. So, even if you're on medication, you should be Alone Training like there's no tomorrow and desensitizing him to triggers, like picking up your keys, putting on a shoe, etc. Have you tried contacting a trainer well-versed with SA? Here's a good resource:

http://www.sfspca.org/sites/default/files/Academy-Referral-List-US-outside-CA.pdf.pdf

 

ETA: Oops, there's no one listed from Wisconsin in that link...Neighboring states, if you're not far from the border?

Edited January 25, 2011 by Giselle

[Guest june]

I totally agree with the advice that this is just a tool and that you have to do the training. The other thing I would caution you about is that these drugs are addictive in the sense that you should never just stop the medication and when the time comes for you take your dog off the medication be sure to follow your vets instructions.

june

[Laurenbiz]

Hi everyone!

 

I wrote a big response to this thread yesterday, and then my internet went kaput!

 

Well, I must admit that this was never our ideal option, of course. We have struggled with alone training since we got him. Even on Day 1, he urinated when we left the house to go grab Subway for dinner. (So, we didn't leave him alone for a long time.) Alone training even since then has not been successful.

 

We read Patricia McConnell's book called "I'll Be Home Soon." I liked it - and it still sits on the kitchen counter as an available resource! We've followed her instructions with crate training, desensitizing, and counter-conditioning. He's not a huge fan of his crate, but when he's in there, he tolerates it. I catch him frequently walking in and out to 'check' for treats even when I haven't put any in. He knows that his crate has been his 'treat dispenser.' His issue is definitely the SA because he urinates no matter what environment he is in.

 

We're having to crate him to control our urine clean-up; he'll urinate wherever he happens to be alone - and even with a belly band, he figures out how to bite it back or maybe he rubs it back if he stands at a wall. We're not sure how, but if he is out of the crate with the belly band, he'll still puddle on the floor because he's moved it away from his groin.

 

Our hope is that training can be successful (alone training especially, and also desensitizing/counter-conditioning,) if/when he is not in an anxious state! Like I said, we've struggled with the training because he's already stressed to the point that he's trembling, and he won't accept treats with counter-conditioning. If he can be more calm, then the training should be effective.

 

I'm sure it will be a long road ahead, but we're going to help this boy

 

Thanks again, everyone!

[Willowsmum]

First off, I feel your pain and send you hugs! It is hard and stressful.

Our Willow has terrible SA and we tried everything short of voodoo before we went for the drugs. She doesn't puddle, knock on wood, but she has shredded drapes, blankets and toys and once chewed bars on her crate so bad she bled all over ( I think the saliva from drooling spread it around, so it looked like a horror movie set, but she wasn't mortlly wounded). The shaking and panting broke my heart. She also was to upset to be distracted by treats when we left. Her favorite peanut butter would be in the kong where

I left it, untouched. we had no luck with DAP collar or spray, but the DAP diffuser actually seemed to work. Maybe it was the delivery method.

She is 60 pounds and on the 80 mg, the recommended dose for her size.

 

It has been almost two months, and she is making progress. Not able to be alone three hours yet, but we could have her unmuzzled in the house for shorter trips okay. She seems less fearful in general and seems to be learning some new behavior. We have had some smiles and romps in the snow on meds. She is now exhibiting what I thought would be brand new dog behaviors. I think when we got her she was too terrified to bark, growl, guard, jump or test limits, and we are just seeing that now. It is like she was re-booted and we are starting training all over from scratch.

 

I have also noticed that either the clomicalm or the winter weather have her more thirsty and drinking more, and having to pee more often. Good luck with your boy, and hopefully more people who have gotten to the light at the end of the proverbial tunnel will comment too, but at least you know you're not the only one! Good luck!

[Laurenbiz]

I'm stupid excited. Can I share my joy?

 

Bernie has now been on Clomipramine for a little over two weeks. For two days, he's been on his new 50mg dose, and it was 25mg before that.

 

 

I must make an announcement!

Bernie spent his first 8-day hour day, alone, out of the crate, no belly band, full run of the house...with NO destruction and no potty incidents today!!!

 

This is the very first time!!!

 

:yay

[Guest Swifthounds]

When we give medications to dogs to reduce aggression or fear, (honestly) we don't really know what we're doing. Dogs' mental states, unfortunately, aren't a very high priority for pharmaceutical research. From the information that I've gleaned from multiple vet behaviorists and behavioral conferences is that the most we can say about medication is: "It seems to work based on uncontrolled experiments and patient anecdotes." Based on the medication's properties, we can sort of guesstimate what should happen to a dog. And if we do see differences in behaviors, we can extrapolate how that may have come about via the medication. But that's a very backwards way of looking at medical science, and it's not how we should be doing it. But.. considering the current state of affairs, that's the best we can do.

 

So my point is: I've used medication for my dog before. I know a lot of other people who have, too. Does it "work"? Well, there's no publishes literature that says it should definitely produce a positive, calming effect on a dog. But there are a lot of people and patients who think that it does. Most vet behaviorists, however, take extreme caution before prescribing medication, mostly because we don't know what's going on! So, use caution, and ALWAYS choose behavioral/environmental modification first. With a tricyclic antidepressant like Clomipramine, you need to keep your dog on it for an extended amount of time (I was told 1 year is the standard). Using it as a temporary aid and stopping cold turkey can make the behaviors worsen.

 

Above all, it's about training. Tough, I know! Training is hard! But it's training that counts. So, even if you're on medication, you should be Alone Training like there's no tomorrow and desensitizing him to triggers, like picking up your keys, putting on a shoe, etc. Have you tried contacting a trainer well-versed with SA? Here's a good resource:

http://www.sfspca.org/sites/default/files/Academy-Referral-List-US-outside-CA.pdf.pdf

 

ETA: Oops, there's no one listed from Wisconsin in that link...Neighboring states, if you're not far from the border?

 

[TwiggysMom]

Lauren,

 

Posting here , too, to say congratulations on this milestone!

 

I have been following your threads and know how much time and effort on all non-medicated fronts you made to work with Bernie's SA, and opted for medication as there was no other course for you to pursue.

 

You have been so dedicated to resolving his issues, and I am very happy to hear that he is now in a state where he may now be receptive to behavior-based training. Some dogs (BERNIE!!) just are so stressed with SA that they can't "get" the training without help from medication.

 

I hope that Bernie can now learn that not only is he great when you're there, but that he is OK! when you're not.

[seeh2o]

Hey, congratulations, that is wonderful news. It's so exciting when you can see the progress, real tangible progress!!! Knowing that your dog is feeling better about their situation and what life can and will be like without the medication. It is very very gratifying. Please keep us posted with Bernie's continued progress!

Edited February 10, 2011 by seeh2o

[greysmom]

I very happy that things have egun to turn around for you and Bernie! Just awesome! Keep it up and Good luck!

[Guest d0ggiem0mma]

25mg is a really TINY dosage, even 50mg sounds small for a greyhound. My 35lb whippet takes 40mg twice a day! It does wonders for him though so good luck!

[Guest hattiepumpkin]

Just to add my 2 cents in: Hattie is also on 50 mg of Chlomipramine a day, as she went through SEVERE stress/panic attacks last year out of the blue after living here for almost 4 years. It actually took a while for her to adjust to the meds, but she is back to her normal self now. I tried to wean her off the meds this summer, but after a few weeks, she was exhibiting the same behavior that eventually led us to put her on it to begin with, so I started her back up again. It's great that you are already making progress with Bernie!