Suggestions For Treating Incontinence?

[Guest LindsaySF]

Sophie my seizure foster (thread here) is having some incontinence issues. When she is sleeping and very relaxed she will just let go of her bladder and wet her bed. I mentioned this to the vet at our last appointment and she said it could be her anti-seizure meds (phenobarbital and KBr), but also some dogs will just relax too much and the sphincter lets go. We checked for a UTI and it was negative (she doesn't have any other UTI symptoms). Anyone else out there with a dog on anti-seizure meds, have you had any incontinence issues?

 

Her accidents aren't happening often enough yet to need medication (a few times a month so far), but the vet said if they get more frequent she would put her on Proin. I asked about the possible side effects and she said lots of dogs are on it and are fine. Well, after reading some of the horror stories on this forum and the internet about Proin causing strokes, seizures, and death, no way am I putting her on it. I'll just keep cleaning pee thanks. I know all dogs are different and plenty of dogs are on Proin and are just fine, but she already has seizures, I don't want to risk adding to that.

 

Anyway, what are some other alternatives? I had read about giving milk, somehow that is supposed to help? How much do you give, and what is the mechanism behind it? Any "natural" or holistic supplements I could run by the vet?

 

Also, a general question about incontinence. My main concern is about her peeing while asleep, but she also pees whenever I leave, even if she's had a recent potty break. I have attributed this to separation anxiety and I have lots of pee pads.... Could stress cause incontinence like that, and some sort of incontinence medication could help, or am I indeed looking at a behavioral issue there? (If it is behavioral, aside from alone training and other behavioral techniques, should I ask about an antidepressant or sedative? She usually doesn't cry or bark or chew, just pee).

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

[montgomery2524]

We had an incontinent female. She leaked when sleeping but did not have accidents in the house. We added chopped parsley to her food, about a tablespoon and it worked for her. Another remedy is to use a corn silk tincture.

[Guest greyt2love]

My vet put Momma Sophia on DES which is a shortened form of a loooong name hormone. She takes it once a week and it works for her. She was a brood momma and spayed late in life. No UTI's for her, either, so he thought spay incontinence. No seizure meds, though, so I don't know if there would be any reaction.

My 12 year old Rex has been on Proin for 3 years now with no problems, but it doesn't seem to be helping as much as it used to. Rather than up the dosage, I have added cranberry capsules , one in the AM, and one before bed. So far, it works. I would like to get him off the Proin for all the reasons you stated. Even though he has not had problems, at 12, I'm not wanting to take chances!

[greysmom]

Not a medicine but some "bad girl" panties would probably help *you* so you're not cleaning up as often.

 

Hope there's something that can help pretty Sophie!

[greyhndz]

I'll second the DES. It worked wonderfully for my Robyn and you can taper it down to once a week or even longer intervals. Rob was getting it once every two weeks, with great results.

 

Washable incontinence pads on the bed is really helpful, too. Quite a few of us have ordered these. They work well and the price is amazingly low. I think I use the 36 x 52.

[Guest earlkattangrey]

I'm copying this from another of my posts...

 

My dog has spay incontinence, as it's sometimes referred to, and it's pretty extreme. She would leak any time she slept.

 

Years ago a former vet put her on PPA (Phenylpropanolamine, brand name Proin) to control this. This drug has been pulled for use in humans because of the risk of stroke. It also causes excitability in canines (and did). I do NOT want to keep my dog on a pharmaceutical like this for life!

 

However, after I took her off PPA, the problem was 10x worse (leaking while awake, etc), making her dependent on it til I could find an alternative. So I tried some holistic, herbal, homeopathic remedies with limited success.

 

Then I stumbled across a random breeder's website, small little personal page, who recommended grain free diets for spay incontinence. I gave it a try and was thoroughly AMAZED to see the problem stop ALTOGETHER. If she even gets a regular (grain containing) dog treat at the bank or pet store, she will leak later that day. It is a stark contrast how her body reacts to grain and grain-free food in terms of this problem.

 

Any time I have the opportunity I spread the word about this, and particularly to vets - and they do not believe me! They give reasons why it must be something else or it's in my head or just really don't seem to hear me (I think I lose them when I mention I tried homeopathy:) ). Only my current vet, who practices both conventional and holistic med, is open to it, and although she is puzzled why it would work, I do know she has recommended it to other clients.

 

I would highly recommend you give grain free a try!!

[Burpdog]

Did they culture the urine?

 

With DES you must be deligent with blood work as it can have an adverse effect on the platelets.

 

If it were me, I'd make sure she empties her bladder before bedtime or long naps. With Eliza if I walked her for 5 minutes she would go enough that it stopped.

 

 

[Guest LindsaySF]

Thanks guys!

I don't think they cultured the urine, no. It didn't sound like a UTI but I insisted on a urinalysis just in case. Could she have a UTI without any other symptoms besides the sleeping incontinence?

 

Sophie is already on a grain-free diet (Taste of the Wild Wetlands). I believe you about the connection Erin, even if some vets don't.

 

I'll check out those washable pads. I am thinking of bad girl panties too, at least for GIG.

 

What's the thought behind chopped parsley? And what is corn silk tincture?

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

 

[Guest LindsaySF]

Sophie's incontinence is getting worse. Maybe she is just having a bad few days, as she was great in GIG (peed on the way there but that's it). She peed her bed in her crate last night and she peed her bed in the living room this afternoon. We were at a meet & greet for several hours today, so maybe she was just extra-tired? I really don't want to put her on Proin...

 

I'm thinking of giving her milk every day, others have reported success with milk. I figure it can't hurt right?

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

 

[Guest vahoundlover]

Try acupuncture, the holistic vet we used for Boss told me she has had excellent results. I wish I had known her before we lost Dolly

[Batmom]

If she's lactose intolerant, you'll be sorry but you'll know that pretty quick. Worth a try. If that doesn't help, it might be worth trying her on homecooked low salt for awhile to see if that would have an effect. Hugs and best luck!

[Guest lat41065]

they do have an all natural alternative. check all natural pet. ill check it in the am and post the name

[galgrey]

What's the thought behind chopped parsley? And what is corn silk tincture?

 

 

Parsley and corn silk are a couple of herbals that are sometimes effective for incontinence. Here's a link to an article with some information on herbals and other natural treatments (corn silk, etc.) if you're open to that route: Incontinence. Also Only Natural Pet has some herbal combination remedies that work well for some dogs: Products Page.

 

Here's another link to an article from Whole Dog Journal on the subject: Whole Dog Journal Link.

 

This is probably unrelated to your girl's problem, but my bridge boy, Keno, used to drip/leak urine when his back was out of alignment typically after running like a crazy dog at play group. He responded immediately to a chiropractic adjustment that freed up the nerve that controlled the bladder sphincter.

 

Good luck. Let us know how she does.

Edited May 2, 2010 by galgrey

[ShantisMom]

If she's lactose intolerant, you'll be sorry but you'll know that pretty quick. Worth a try. If that doesn't help, it might be worth trying her on homecooked low salt for awhile to see if that would have an effect. Hugs and best luck!

Yes you will!!! Asti is apparently lactose intolerant. She has spay incontinence. Much worse after a lot of activity. She is on the Proin. She gets 25 mg a day. Nala now has age related incontinence. She is on nothing now. The dogs are gated on tile these days with 8 beds. Ha! Only 3 dogs.

[greyhead]

Shane is having incontinence issues too, did badly on Proin, and here are some dots we've connected:

 

His bloodwork looks good, except he's slightly below range for phosphorous, 2.6 (range 3-7), which constitutes mild hypophosphatemia. Hypophosphatemia involves muscle issues and may impact the strength of those controlling the bladder, I'm thinking.

 

The VIN article she referenced calls for milk as a corrective! I can give you the formula if you like; for Shane at 83 lbs it comes out to two cups of milk per day. He's not intolerant and he loves it! Can't tell how well it's working because we just started yesterday, the same day we also had to start low-dose pred for possible vasculitis!

 

We're getting Shane outside every 2-3 hours during the day and putting on an incontinence pad in a belly band overnight. We have tucked the protective pads inside the dog beds too, but they haven't had to do any work since we started this regimen.

 

I can email you the article if you like.

[Guest LindsaySF]

Thanks guys! So unless I see blow out D as a result of the milk, I can assume she is not lactose intolerant?

 

Batmom, how much salt would I have to eliminate to determine if salt is a factor? Her KBr medication is also a salt, would that affect things?

 

 

Galgrey, thanks for the links, will read them soon. Greyhead, feel free to email me anything you have about this topic. Thank you! Lindsay@weadoptgreyhounds.org

 

Sophie kept her bed dry all day Sunday. She had a seizure early this morning. Gave her an extra phenobarb. After a post-ictal state lasting a little over an hour, we went back to bed for a little bit. She peed her bed again. I'm thinking it's from the extra phenobarb? (She gets extra after a seizure to prevent clustering).

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

 

[Batmom]

Yeah, unless you see blowout D or unbearable gas, she's fine with milk.

 

I would probably try to eliminate all *added salt in food* for @ a week or 10 days' trial ... but you might want to ask your vet first if that would affect any of her seizure meds.

[Guest LindsaySF]

I need to tell the vet if I change any salt in her diet. If she is given less salt, her KBr will affect her more strongly. Good from a seizure standpoint, bad from an ataxia standpoint. Should I start cooking for her? She's currently on Taste of the Wild Wetlands.

 

I did some reading on those websites. While reading about grain-free it occurred to me that Sophie got some Milkbone treats in the past week (I had 2 visiting Greys and we shared the cookies). Maybe one of those ingredients irritated her, who knows. I'll be sure not to give any more. This wouldn't explain her incontinence issues from the past few months though.

 

One link said excessive drinking can lead to incontinence. Well her meds do make her drink a lot of water, not much I can do about that unfortunately.

 

One blurb said a lower protein food sometimes helps. Sophie's food is high protein (32%) but pretty much all of the grain-free diets have high protein. It's a catch 22. It also said green beans can increase incontinence, and Sophie has been getting a lot of green beans when she's hungry (the pheno makes her hungry and if she got kibble every time she had a craving she would be 100 lbs by now). Another site said green beans were a good diet supplement.

 

I read some more about corn silk and it is said to be a diuretic, that wouldn't work. It also has high levels of potassium, I think that would mess with her KBr levels by binding to the bromide. One site said a possible side effect is low blood sugar, and I've read that low blood sugar can cause seizures. Oy.

The herbal remedies listed weren't much help. Schisandra says to avoid use in those with epilepsy. The herb fennel was recommended but it is also supposed to increase appetite, that's the last thing we need. Skullcap can cause seizures and stupor. Nux moschata is nutmeg, which can cause seizures in dogs. While searching for parsley info I came across Devil's Claw, but a study on animals caused low blood sugar and nervous system depression. Parsley, horsetail, and dandelion were all described as diuretics, I think Sophie would get far too dehydrated. This is getting frustrating! There have to be epileptic dogs out there that have incontinence issues, Sophie can't be the only one?!

Some of the commercial herbal products look promising. I will ask the vet about them.

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

Edited May 4, 2010 by LindsaySF

[Batmom]

Your other option would be to simply cook for her, starting with as close as you can get to an elimination diet and adding an appropriate amount of salt. With Zema, it seemed I could add a little salt and she was fine ... it was either the higher level in commercial food (including prescription with low salt) or something else about commercial. I gave up trying to figure it out. She got her beef, sometimes a little rice, her calcium and vitamin supplements, a reasonable quantity of commercial treats, and she was fine.

[greyhead]

Hope you got the article I emailed you last night. My computer was just not working well yesterday, particularly when it came to GT.

 

We're giving Shane a commercial herbal that the vet sold us: Bladder Support by Vet Classics. www.vetclassics.com Don't know if it's working, along with the milk we're giving, because now he's on pred for vasculitis! The herbs are supposed to take 30-60 days to work anyway. But there it is. I will say that he's doing better leakage-wise during the day, even with the pred and excess drinking.

[Guest LindsaySF]

I did get the article, thank you! I haven't had a chance to read it yet.

 

Sophie had another seizure this morning. After an hour of pacing and such, she fell back asleep and again wet the bed. I assume from the valium and pheno I gave her to prevent further clusters.

 

 

I checked out that Bladder Support product and googled its ingredients. Pumpkin seeds appear pretty safe, the possible side effects I found for rehmannia were fairly minor, except for lowering blood sugar. Marshmallow Root can lower blood sugar and affect the absorption of other medications (it doesn't say what meds it may affect). Am I being paranoid by reading these potential side effects? I am afraid of making Sophie worse..... And almost all of the herbs are diuretics, should I be concerned about that? Sophie already drinks a lot of water and pees almost clear. It seems the answer to this is not as simple as I first thought.

 

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

 

[greyhead]

The clear pee might not be a good sign kidneywise. Shane has been peeing buckets but it's normal color, so his kidneys are able to concentrate it.

 

Don't know whether any of the herbal side effects would be especially bad for your foster. All our herbals have been vet-recommended, but that's not much help to your individual case.

 

For whatever it's worth, I'm so sorry you're having this trouble.

[galgrey]

This has been a real ordeal for both of you. Thank goodness she has you taking care of her!

[Guest LindsaySF]

Thanks guys. The vet knows that her pee is often clear, her seizure medication makes her thirsty (and hungry) so it is to be expected. I take up the water at night when we go to bed (with the vet's permission), and her pee is more concentrated in the morning, so we know she has the ability to concentrate her urine.

 

She has had a few incidents with dehydration though during the day, usually when she's been sleeping for a while. She will wake up panting even though it's not warm, I pinch her neck skin and it stays. I give her the water bowl and she drains it, then she's better. I honestly think at those times when she takes marathon naps she just "forgets" to drink, because she has access to the water.

 

I am going to run these herbs by the vet next time I speak with her. She keeps pushing Proin though. She says it is very safe and she prescribes it all the time, but I have read too many horror stories about it. I realize that many people have dogs on it, some Greyhound owners in my group use it also with no side effects, but I just wouldn't be able to live with myself if something happened to Sophie, after all she's been through. The incontinence is not affecting her health, it is just an inconvenience for me.

 

The good news is that Sophie kept her bed dry all night. I wonder if the milk is helping? She did have a series of focal seizures this morning though.

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

[greyhead]

Yay for Sophie! Good news about the concentrated urine too. (Shane is staying more dry on the milk and Bladder Support too, even with the prednisone!)

 

When we gave Shane the Proin, he was doing a lot of staring and statue-ing. He was sleeping at the foot of the stairs at night, which is as close to us as the dogs ever get at night, and indicated to me that he felt insecure. I can't remember what else he was doing that concerned me, but I got the very definite overall impression that he was not reacting well at all. So after the second day, we discontinued it. DH and I both work at home and can observe; if that weren't the case, based on the stories of others, I doubt we would have even given the Proin a trial.

 

I'm not trying to influence you, actually. I don't know what your work situation is. A person in our situation could more easily justify trying the Proin than someone who is away a lot, I think. So I'm just reporting what happened to us, for whatever you can make of it.