For Ibd/sibo Issues New Food Grain & Potato Free

[RobinM]

I did a search for grain and potato free dog food and came up with this.

 

There are several options. Chicken, beef, bison, lamp or venison.

 

let me know what you think, other than the price!

 

 

http://www.thewholedog.org/FoodDry.html#DryFood

Edited January 11, 2009 by RobinM

[Guest mandm]

Looks like they both contain things other than meat. Evo 95% meat looks better to me, but what do I know? http://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?id=1493

They have different formulations with different types of meat. I think they are complete, ie-contain calcium, whereas I think the BG is not. In a crisis, complete nutrition is not that big a deal. However, calcium, at least calcium in the form of bone, does firm stool. And that's something that you want now.

 

I've never used fed this, so have no experience. Anyone else ever fed it? It looks expensive.

Edited January 11, 2009 by mandm

[Batmom]

If you don't know what bothers him, you'd be better off feeding one thing -- such as beef or chicken, with calcium supplement. If you don't want to cook, you can buy it here: http://www.evangersdogfood.com/dog/allmeat.html . Looks like price has gone up a tad since I last bought but still not much over $1 a can.

[RobinM]

I'm not looking for canned, only kibble. I have the canned BG which has no grain. I want to match a kibble. The BG kibble has potatos. I did a search for NO grain OR potato.

 

It is expensive, that's seconadary if we can get him well.

 

Is there any other kibble out there without grain or potato?

[Guest AllThingsBiotha]

I tried it--eh, there are other less expensive products and I'd go broke with the amount I'd have to feed if I used it regularly. I bought it here: Pawsitively Purrfect Nutrition

 

There are other foods on this website that may work for you, as well, and some interesting articles. I feed NOW Grain free (but it does have potato flour) and Frozen Green Tripe.

[Guest MZH]

I did a search for grain and potato free dog food and came up with this.

 

There are several options. Chicken, beef, bison, lamp or venison.

 

let me know what you think, other than the price!

 

 

http://www.thewholedog.org/FoodDry.html#DryFood

 

Nuts, I couldn't get into the list of recommended dry foods but if it doesn't have any starch in it, it sounds like a wonderful kind feed to try. I bet they cost a big bundle! The Whole Dog newsletter comes up with some neat stuff.

 

Marcia

[Guest mandm]

Are there any kibbles without starch? Seems that starch is needed to process it.

[Guest mike]

FWIW I tell my clients who need a good food use EVO. It's the closest you get to raw. I'm a vet and I use it.

[TheFullHouse]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to just feed him raw, uncooked chicken or beef? I know you've said he's very picky but would he eat raw meat?

[RobinM]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to just feed him raw, uncooked chicken or beef? I know you've said he's very picky but would he eat raw meat?

 

No he won't. He literally has looked at raw and then up at me like Mom you forgot to cook it. If something Dh is about to cook and is too close to the end of the counter, Chloe and Teddy will be eyeing it, but not Beau.

 

FWIW I tell my clients who need a good food use EVO. It's the closest you get to raw. I'm a vet and I use it.

 

Polli, Beau's mom eats EVO. It was too rich for Beau. Doesn't EVO have either a grain or potato in it? I don't remember. Poilli eats the yellow bag, small bites.

[Jackandgrey]

Orijen doesn't have grain or potato. It has a chicken formula and a fish formula.

Edited January 11, 2009 by Jackandgrey

[RobinM]

Thanks. I will check it out. I like the ingredients of the food, I had listed, but there is no documentation on it yet. I don't want to be a clicnical trial with Beau!!!

[Hubcitypam]

According to Orijens website both formulas have potato. Evo does too. Good luck Robin, this is gonna be a mission.

[RobinM]

I guess I will be a clinical trial with Beau.

[Guest AllThingsBiotha]

Great Life Grain Free

 

This looks interesting....

[Guest tricolorhounds]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to just feed him raw, uncooked chicken or beef? I know you've said he's very picky but would he eat raw meat?

 

No he won't. He literally has looked at raw and then up at me like Mom you forgot to cook it. If something Dh is about to cook and is too close to the end of the counter, Chloe and Teddy will be eyeing it, but not Beau.

 

 

 

I have one that is picky about his raw, sometimes he will and sometimes he won't... I think it is more palatable to them if you put some Apple Cider Vinegar or Tamari Soy Sauce (wheat free) on it...

 

I'd also try raw ground meat 1st and see if he develops a taste for it

Edited January 11, 2009 by tricolorhounds

[ahicks51]

There's another way of looking at this; starch is clearly a problem (and a pervasive one). Carbohydrate restriction alone may be enough. Let's say- for the purposes of discussion- that we want to explore that route.

 

For the purposes of managing IBD, Crohn's, and ulcerative colitis, Lutz (for human purposes) sets a limit of 72 grams of carbs per day. At 4 calories per gram, that's 288 calories from carbs. So, for a person who consumes 2000 calories/day, that's 14.4% of daily calories. For someone at 1600 calories/day, that's 18% of calories.

 

The (sample-sized) bag of Orijen that I have handy puts its total calories from carbs at 18%, so that's in the zone. It does have potato, but- we can hope- due to the processing involved that it's been "de-branched" enough to reduce its palatbility to gut organisms, or that it's low enough in carbs to excuse that indiscretion.

 

As for the KrunCheros- the only thing I could ding them for is having more veggies and fruits than I'd like to see. Fat and protein are in the same range as Orijen, but seeing a product with no grain OR potato is good.

 

Rubicon uses tapioca- a starchy root that is contraindicated. It doesn't specify quantities, unfortunately. Ditto with jicama and yams. They take out potato, and replace with other starchy roots. Otherwise OK.

 

The Ziwi Peak (gah! the price!) is superb. As it's a dried food, it may be more economical than it appears to be superficially.

 

The Evangers (thanks! didn't even know about that brand!) is remarkable. I didn't check all their ingredients, but from the ones I checked- wow. That's tough to beat.

 

The Evo Canned looks good, but the carrageenan is worrying. It's one of those polymeric carbohydrates that has proven to be hard on some people who are on carbohydrate restriction for Crohn's. There may not be enough in there- it's tough to say.

 

The bottom line:

 

So- from this, you could start with Orijen, alone or with amendments; if you can mix in something like the canned Evangers or some home-cooked meat (even hamburger) or raw/cooked eggs to drop the carbohydrate concentration even lower, that could very well be the fix, or really push back the symptoms to the point where it's manageable, and do it at a reasonable price. In effect, the more you dilute its 18% of calories from carbs with meat, bone, and organ tissue, the lower-carb it'll be. That *may* equate into better results.

 

Supplements: I personally take Enzymedica's "Acid Soothe" if I am going to consume a meal with starch (mainly rice- I have found I can tolerate that). Designed for heartburn, it contains some enzymes that help bust up carbohydrates. Half a capsule mixed in with each meal *might* make a difference. I don't put any money on that.

 

I also take 1500 mg/day of pantothenic acid (vitamin B5), a 500 mg capsule with each meal; again, you could get away with 300 mg capsules with each meal, or half of a 500 mg/capsule per meal- it's not toxic even in substantially larger doses. I have found I function substantially better on days when I remember to take this. Other Crohnies report similar.

 

Probiotics: I eat huge amounts of home-made yogurt; there are data to support the notion that many organisms (NOT bifidobacteria) strongly help the gut of people with IBD/IBS/Crohn's, etc. through the same mechanism as TNF inhibitors, but without the injections. I have no idea how this translates into doggie supplements, given the differences in biology and wouldn't begin to make a recommendation other than to try them once you have a "baseline" of stability. Intestinal disorders do not lend themselves well to empirical observation; it's best to try one thing and stick to it without jumping around. Once things look stable (or, if they're not stable, if things simply haven't changed for the better after days/weeks), try a change.

[RobinM]

Great Life Grain Free

 

This looks interesting....

 

Yes, it does, I will look at it all tomorrow and maybe switch EVERYONE!

[Guest AllThingsBiotha]

I'd be interested to know what you find out about Great Life Grain Free--the New Zealand Lamb looks very good and the 35 pound bag is less expensive than a lot of other premium foods!!

Edited January 11, 2009 by AllThingsBiotha

[RobinM]

There's another way of looking at this; starch is clearly a problem (and a pervasive one). Carbohydrate restriction alone may be enough. Let's say- for the purposes of discussion- that we want to explore that route.

 

For the purposes of managing IBD, Crohn's, and ulcerative colitis, Lutz (for human purposes) sets a limit of 72 grams of carbs per day. At 4 calories per gram, that's 288 calories from carbs. So, for a person who consumes 2000 calories/day, that's 14.4% of daily calories. For someone at 1600 calories/day, that's 18% of calories.

 

The (sample-sized) bag of Orijen that I have handy puts its total calories from carbs at 18%, so that's in the zone. It does have potato, but- we can hope- due to the processing involved that it's been "de-branched" enough to reduce its palatbility to gut organisms, or that it's low enough in carbs to excuse that indiscretion.

 

As for the KrunCheros- the only thing I could ding them for is having more veggies and fruits than I'd like to see. Fat and protein are in the same range as Orijen, but seeing a product with no grain OR potato is good.

 

Rubicon uses tapioca- a starchy root that is contraindicated. It doesn't specify quantities, unfortunately. Ditto with jicama and yams. They take out potato, and replace with other starchy roots. Otherwise OK.

 

The Ziwi Peak (gah! the price!) is superb. As it's a dried food, it may be more economical than it appears to be superficially.

 

The Evangers (thanks! didn't even know about that brand!) is remarkable. I didn't check all their ingredients, but from the ones I checked- wow. That's tough to beat.

 

The Evo Canned looks good, but the carrageenan is worrying. It's one of those polymeric carbohydrates that has proven to be hard on some people who are on carbohydrate restriction for Crohn's. There may not be enough in there- it's tough to say.

 

The bottom line:

 

So- from this, you could start with Orijen, alone or with amendments; if you can mix in something like the canned Evangers or some home-cooked meat (even hamburger) or raw/cooked eggs to drop the carbohydrate concentration even lower, that could very well be the fix, or really push back the symptoms to the point where it's manageable, and do it at a reasonable price. In effect, the more you dilute its 18% of calories from carbs with meat, bone, and organ tissue, the lower-carb it'll be. That *may* equate into better results.

 

Supplements: I personally take Enzymedica's "Acid Soothe" if I am going to consume a meal with starch (mainly rice- I have found I can tolerate that). Designed for heartburn, it contains some enzymes that help bust up carbohydrates. Half a capsule mixed in with each meal *might* make a difference. I don't put any money on that.

 

I also take 1500 mg/day of pantothenic acid (vitamin B5), a 500 mg capsule with each meal; again, you could get away with 300 mg capsules with each meal, or half of a 500 mg/capsule per meal- it's not toxic even in substantially larger doses. I have found I function substantially better on days when I remember to take this. Other Crohnies report similar.

 

Probiotics: I eat huge amounts of home-made yogurt; there are data to support the notion that many organisms (NOT bifidobacteria) strongly help the gut of people with IBD/IBS/Crohn's, etc. through the same mechanism as TNF inhibitors, but without the injections. I have no idea how this translates into doggie supplements, given the differences in biology and wouldn't begin to make a recommendation other than to try them once you have a "baseline" of stability. Intestinal disorders do not lend themselves well to empirical observation; it's best to try one thing and stick to it without jumping around. Once things look stable (or, if they're not stable, if things simply haven't changed for the better after days/weeks), try a change.

 

Thanks, that's a lot to absorb, pardon the pun, but I will tomorrow, first thing when my eyes are not crossing in my head.

 

We just gave the drontal plus for deworming even though the fecal came back negative. NOw, he will be sick due to that.

 

In answer to your PM question, Beau was always a bit picky, not horribly. Mornings were always an issues. I had to put

"something" to sweeten the pot so we could get out and get to work. Now he just doesn't eat in the morming since this all started and we give him the prilesec an hour or 2 before breakfast.

 

Beau would always smell things over and over then eat it as oppossed to Teddy and Chloe who just ate it, whatever it was.

 

Beau is much like his mom.

 

[Guest mandm]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to just feed him raw, uncooked chicken or beef? I know you've said he's very picky but would he eat raw meat?

 

No he won't. He literally has looked at raw and then up at me like Mom you forgot to cook it.

 

My sick, picky greyhound wouldn't touch raw either. So I fed him a "raw" meat-only diet, but I cooked it & added calcium. I think Batmom does the same, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I eventually got him to eat raw.

[Batmom]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to just feed him raw, uncooked chicken or beef? I know you've said he's very picky but would he eat raw meat?

 

No he won't. He literally has looked at raw and then up at me like Mom you forgot to cook it.

 

My sick, picky greyhound wouldn't touch raw either. So I fed him a "raw" meat-only diet, but I cooked it & added calcium. I think Batmom does the same, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

You're right .

 

I can't imagine feeding a commercial kibble with so many different ingredients when you don't know which things cause the problem. And you want to note that the end-product of a problem may not appear until 48 hours after feeding.

[ahicks51]

I can't imagine feeding a commercial kibble with so many different ingredients when you don't know which things cause the problem. And you want to note that the end-product of a problem may not appear until 48 hours after feeding.

 

That's a good point, about the number of ingredients. As for the timing- as little as 2 hours, depending upon the D. Oy vey.

[RobinM]

what about the frozen raw? IF he will eat it, would I add that to the ID at this point? I have been giving him the BG chicken (all meat) with the ID.

[GreyPoopon]

I can't imagine feeding a commercial kibble with so many different ingredients when you don't know which things cause the problem.

 

Exactly.

 

And you want to note that the end-product of a problem may not appear until 48 hours after feeding.

 

Or much much longer, if it's a slow cumulative damage situation. BTDT.