Vet Thinks It's Ibd/crohns For Beau

[Guest mandm]

What is tyleson vs tylan powder?

 

And as far as putting the food in ice trays as a snack, that would work for Chloe, possibly Teddy but no freaking way would Beau go for that. He is ridiculously picky, just like his mother. What are the chances of one person getting 2 dogs with eating disorders. They drive me NUTS! I love them and that's a very good thing!!!!

Tylan & Tylosin are the same thing.

 

My greyhound is also very picky. I think it is because their stomachs hurt that they don't want to eat and must be enticed.

[ahicks51]

How does the B12 injection 1x a week differ from the 200mg daily in pill form?

 

If the gut of an animal is damaged, throwing B12 (or any other vitamin) down their throat does not serve to maximize absorption. But if it's injected, it is available immediately.

 

There is also supposedly a transdermal version of B12, but then you'd need to find some relatively hairless part of the body- perhaps the groinular region- in which to apply it. Not sure if it even works; B12 is such a large molecule, I have trouble believing it can be absorbed in that fashion.

 

One of the biggest problems I have is that there are so many foods that so many different people recommend and I have NO experience witt this, I am all over the place.

 

There may be more than one route to getting where you want to be. Because the idiosyncrasies of various gastric disorders are so cryptic, all sorts of whackos (myself included) will come out of the woodwork with things for you to try. Almost certainly, your solution will be a combination of meds, supplements, and diet. What we- the collective whackos- have done is provide you with things that have worked under our circumstances, and give you some suggestions that you can mull over with your vet.

[Guest SoulsMom]

Did Janet send you the article about B12? I'm keeping it in Soul's "diary" for future reference. Very interesting . . .

 

Just wanted to add that when Soul had his ultrasound the main things that they were looking for were thickening of the intestinal walls and indicators of gastrointestional lymphoma. (and since they were looking anyway, they viewed all his other organs as well) Since they saw nothing to indicate that anything was abnormal, my vet and I decided to forgo the scope unless it became absolutely necessary. I tend to agree with him, as I hate to have invasive procedures done unless all other options have been exhausted.

[RobinM]

How does the B12 injection 1x a week differ from the 200mg daily in pill form?

 

If the gut of an animal is damaged, throwing B12 (or any other vitamin) down their throat does not serve to maximize absorption. But if it's injected, it is available immediately.

 

There is also supposedly a transdermal version of B12, but then you'd need to find some relatively hairless part of the body- perhaps the groinular region- in which to apply it. Not sure if it even works; B12 is such a large molecule, I have trouble believing it can be absorbed in that fashion.

 

One of the biggest problems I have is that there are so many foods that so many different people recommend and I have NO experience witt this, I am all over the place.

 

There may be more than one route to getting where you want to be. Because the idiosyncrasies of various gastric disorders are so cryptic, all sorts of whackos (myself included) will come out of the woodwork with things for you to try. Almost certainly, your solution will be a combination of meds, supplements, and diet. What we- the collective whackos- have done is provide you with things that have worked under our circumstances, and give you some suggestions that you can mull over with your vet.

 

makes complete sense. I am just a bit overwhelmed. Ijust want to get "there" already.

[RobinM]

Did Janet send you the article about B12? I'm keeping it in Soul's "diary" for future reference. Very interesting . . .

 

Yes, she did and DH just ran out to get B12.

 

As far as the ultrsound goes, my vet feels that it would be a waste of money to do. She said that all they would see was a thickening of certain walls, blah blah blah and nothing really conclusive. So, we aren't doing that as of now. She did say that if I really wanted to, she'd rather me have it done at a specialist office where the dr/tech did nothing but US since it was such a specialty.

 

Like I said above, so many different opinions and options. I wish it were more cut and dry.

Beau has these symtoms, do this, that and the other thing and live happily ever after.

 

OK who's delusional?

[Guest SoulsMom]

Yea, Soul's 'sound was done exclusively by technicians who did nothing but that. He had his own diagnostic team. And I was very pleased to hear that there were no signs of lymphoma and he only had a slight thickening of the wall of his small intestine. Given that he had been so sick only a week before, hearing that his innards looked good really gave me peace of mind.

 

Interesting that my vet said sound first, then scope, but your's is saying the opposite . . . .actually, both my vet and the vet at Tufts wanted the ultrasound before the scope, and both of them also agreed to wait on the scope until we'd exhausted all dietary possibilities . . . but now I'm beginning to wonder if it was a waste of $$$ since your vet doesn't think it would be beneficial. But I do love and trust Soul's Dr, so I'm glad I did it for peace of mind at least . . .

[Hubcitypam]

The key to beating this- if Kp really is at the root of canine IBD/PLE/Crohn's- is to getting the starch out. Unfortunately, I don't know of any canned or bagged foods like this; perhaps someone else does.

The canned she is feeding him is just meat and water for proccessing, but it would be really spendy to just feed that.

[RobinM]

The key to beating this- if Kp really is at the root of canine IBD/PLE/Crohn's- is to getting the starch out. Unfortunately, I don't know of any canned or bagged foods like this; perhaps someone else does.

The canned she is feeding him is just meat and water for proccessing, but it would be really spendy to just feed that.

 

But we will if that's what it takes. At this point cost can not be a factor as we have to get him well. Don't get me wrong, we are hurting financially right now- business is down considerably for DH- but we have faith that it will pick up. We will do whatever it takes to get him better.

 

If the dry BG is the way to go with the wet, I'll make the change now. We just bought a small bag of it today.

 

ETA- the kibble has potato.

Edited January 11, 2009 by RobinM

[Guest LynnM]

What ahicks said... what you give orally is mostly destroyed before it can do anything. It's an easy injection.

 

What I was talking about not having to be compounded is the Budesonide.... a greyhound is large enough that the retail capsules are fine. If your vet does prescribe it, make sure you LOOK IN THE BAG while you are at the pharmacy counter. Entocort EC isn't prescribed that often for either humans or animals, and frequently the pharmacist/pharm tech will fill the prescription with the inhaler. This is NOT what you want. You want the capsules.

 

I will add that Joplin did NOT have any biopsies or scopings... his labwork was textbook for IBD, and he'd had a response to prednisone when he was prescribed it for something else. He has also had some other autoimmune funkiness in the last year... his platelets deciding to take a week off here and there, masticatory muscle myositis, that sort of thing.

 

A few years ago, we worked him up for IBD, but were able to get his symptoms under control with flagyl alone. Now that he's much older, and had dropped a bunch of weight, we went with steroids to control the symptoms quickly. It seems to be working for him.

 

Lynn

[Batmom]

It isn't *hideously* expensive to feed a dog just meat. I do it. I don't feed fancy canned, tho.

 

BUT.

 

If Beau isn't actively continuing to lose weight, his bloodwork and urinalysis are good, and he doesn't have active diarrhea (see below), I would do the worming and then keep things the same for at least 3 weeks. Same food (without extras), same meds, at the same times each day. Otherwise I honestly don't know how you or the vet can tell if he's getting better, worse, or staying the same.

 

Active diarrhea = dog has uncontrollable urgency and totally liquid poop.

 

I wouldn't worry in the short term about soft-serve poop and/or tummy noises.

[Guest mandm]

The key to beating this- if Kp really is at the root of canine IBD/PLE/Crohn's- is to getting the starch out. Unfortunately, I don't know of any canned or bagged foods like this; perhaps someone else does.

The canned she is feeding him is just meat and water for proccessing, but it would be really spendy to just feed that.

For a lifetime, yes, it would be too expensive. But just to get him through this crisis, maybe not. But it probably needs some calcium. If it is chicken, then I would add pulverized egg shell or slow cooked (til mushy) skinless chicken necks.

 

I fed my large, sick greyhound 5 large cans of Z/D Ultra per day for more than a month. That was about 3 years ago. It cost $15/day then. It kept him alive. It was cheaper than endoscopy. It ended up not working anymore anyway after about 6 weeks, so I had to switch him to different food. I couldn't have kept him on it for life anyway, due to the expense.

[Guest mandm]

The key to beating this- if Kp really is at the root of canine IBD/PLE/Crohn's- is to getting the starch out. Unfortunately, I don't know of any canned or bagged foods like this; perhaps someone else does.

The canned she is feeding him is just meat and water for proccessing, but it would be really spendy to just feed that.

 

But we will if that's what it takes. At this point cost can not be a factor as we have to get him well. Don't get me wrong, we are hurting financially right now- business is down considerably for DH- but we have faith that it will pick up. We will do whatever it takes to get him better.

 

If the dry BG is the way to go with the wet, I'll make the change now. We just bought a small bag of it today.

 

ETA- the kibble has potato.

 

Potato is carb. Maybe it would be OK for him, maybe not. It's a gamble. I'd stick with just the canned if that is carb-free.

 

Carbs are cheap and process well into kibble. That's fine for healthy dogs. I wish mine were healthy, because I would love to feed kibble, but I can't.

[Guest boondog]

I don't have any additional advice, but I wanted you to know that I'm thinking of Beau (and Polli, of course!). I have Crohn's and budesonide has worked very well for me in controlling flare-ups. Best of luck, I know it's difficult.

[Guest MZH]

The compounding is for the Entocort. There is someone on this board whose dog is taking compounded Entocort to get 2 mg doses rather than the 3 mg in the standard pill. Might be a very small greyhound.

 

On tylan -- There are a few ways to spell it but the important thing to remember is that the powder is far less expensive than the pills. The powder is very bitter so some of us put it in gel caps so the dog will even take it. Some dogs just refuse to eat food with the powder on it. It's pretty bitter.

 

Before making too many experimental changes in food, I'd do the meds first one at a time. Otherwise, it'll be tough to tell which change is making the improvements - or not.

 

It's a challenge!

 

Marcia

 

 

 

 

[Guest akgs13]

You are in our prayers.

[Guest MZH]

Two more thoughts: Have you tested for food allergies? Apparently that's gotten better. And it could be H Pylori. That's dxd with an endoscopy though. I don't know what diagnostics you've had done to this point but it might be more cost efficient to get it done that spend oodles of money on food that won't work.

 

If it's IBD or doggie Crohns, budesonide may be what you wind up with -- along with a no starch diet. That Klebsiella pneumoniae (sp?) connection to it is something very intriguing. No starch is such a simple and wonderful remedy.

 

Marcia

[Jackandgrey]

It isn't *hideously* expensive to feed a dog just meat. I do it. I don't feed fancy canned, tho.

 

BUT.

 

If Beau isn't actively continuing to lose weight, his bloodwork and urinalysis are good, and he doesn't have active diarrhea (see below), I would do the worming and then keep things the same for at least 3 weeks. Same food (without extras), same meds, at the same times each day. Otherwise I honestly don't know how you or the vet can tell if he's getting better, worse, or staying the same.

 

Active diarrhea = dog has uncontrollable urgency and totally liquid poop.

 

I wouldn't worry in the short term about soft-serve poop and/or tummy noises.

 

This makes such good sense.

[Guest SoulsMom]

Ditto.

 

That is the path we're taking with Soul, except it will be a month eating only one thing. Then I will start 'experimenting' but keeping a log in his diary so hopefully someday I can get this figured out. I know it may take awhile, but as long as he's not feeling awful and not pooping blood I can deal with it.

 

And, of course, I'll always have his magic Flagyl on hand in case the blood does return

[Guest dsszarzi]

Did you ask your vet about a TLI test?

[RobinM]

Did you ask your vet about a TLI test?

is that the pancreaic test? If so, tomorrow with the Sibo/B12

 

It isn't *hideously* expensive to feed a dog just meat. I do it. I don't feed fancy canned, tho.

 

BUT.

 

If Beau isn't actively continuing to lose weight, his bloodwork and urinalysis are good, and he doesn't have active diarrhea (see below), I would do the worming and then keep things the same for at least 3 weeks. Same food (without extras), same meds, at the same times each day. Otherwise I honestly don't know how you or the vet can tell if he's getting better, worse, or staying the same.

 

Active diarrhea = dog has uncontrollable urgency and totally liquid poop.

 

I wouldn't worry in the short term about soft-serve poop and/or tummy noises.

 

This makes such good sense.

 

Problem is getting him on and keeping him on a food he will eat for 3 weeks with no variation. He won't. He is thinner and I do believe he's lost more weight. I will find out tomorrow when he goes in for the blood test.

 

We dewormed him last night and today he won't eat which I KNEW was coming but hopefully he will eat something later.

 

He is not easy and this is not easy.

[Guest dsszarzi]

Did you ask your vet about a TLI test?

is that the pancreaic test? If so, tomorrow with the Sibo/B12

 

Yes. Since you are getting a blood test anyway, might as well get the TLI, B12, Folate, and Cobalamin tested. That way other things can be ruled out. I wouldn't be surprised if that is what your vet is going to do. But...you might ask.

 

 

It isn't *hideously* expensive to feed a dog just meat. I do it. I don't feed fancy canned, tho.

 

BUT.

 

If Beau isn't actively continuing to lose weight, his bloodwork and urinalysis are good, and he doesn't have active diarrhea (see below), I would do the worming and then keep things the same for at least 3 weeks. Same food (without extras), same meds, at the same times each day. Otherwise I honestly don't know how you or the vet can tell if he's getting better, worse, or staying the same.

 

Active diarrhea = dog has uncontrollable urgency and totally liquid poop.

 

I wouldn't worry in the short term about soft-serve poop and/or tummy noises.

 

This makes such good sense.

 

Problem is getting him on and keeping him on a food he will eat for 3 weeks with no variation. He won't. He is thinner and I do believe he's lost more weight. I will find out tomorrow when he goes in for the blood test.

 

We dewormed him last night and today he won't eat which I KNEW was coming but hopefully he will eat something later.

 

He is not easy and this is not easy.

 

[Guest LynnM]

Ask your vet about feeding the day of his bloodwork. TLI/PLI/Cobolamine/Folate is done fasting, IIRC. I thought you guys did all this already. I'm glad you are doing them... it will tell you a lot about what you need to know. Texas A&M (where the blood is going) has a lot of good information on their website about managing malabsorption diseases.

 

Lynn

[Guest mandm]

I get my greyhound tested a couple of times per year. Less now that he is doing well. My vet sends it off to TX A&M. And our directions have always been a 12 hour fast. So basically that means no breakfast or late night snacks. More than 12 hrs is OK, but less is not alright. Since I test my GH periodically, I try to maintain the same fast time, in order to accurately compare tests results each time.

[RobinM]

Well, he is not eating so that is not a problem.

 

We did learn something new here today.

 

Beau hates raw. We bought the patties and medallions of lamp. Natures Vareity. I put it in with his kibble and he looked up at me like, Mom- yo ufporgot to cook it. He ran away. Chloe my chow hound who loves EVERYTHING and I do mean everything wouldn't eat it either.

 

Today he is happy, active but his eating is worse. It could be from the 1)Drontal plus 2) adding the chicken back in 3) the ID.

 

Now what???

[tbhounds]

Yikes--Lynn beat me to it--the TLI... needs to be drawn on a fasted dog.

 

Edited to mention that my dogs will not even look at the Natures Variety Lamb--blah--they like all of the other ones (Rabbit might be best for you--low fat-but, it does contain chicken eggs).

Edited January 11, 2009 by tbhounds