Has Anyone Had An Intersexed Greyhound (not Hermaphrodite)?

[Guest MZH]

Hi,

 

We got a 4-month-old Greyhound pup on 6/28. He seemed to be a happy boy land shark. He pees like a boy puppy but the stream seems to stop before the bladder is empty. He needed to go out every hour but gets through the night OK.

 

Perry went to the vet last Thursday because of these strange urinary issues. The vet went to find the penis and there was none! The other vet there that day couldn't find it either. All they found was a large urethral opening where the penis should be. There is a prepuce with nothing in it. There are no testicles to be found either. (They saw that right off at the first visit.)

 

We'll have to do some detective work (imaging, etc.) to find out what sex Perry/i is and exactly what equipment s/he has. I suspect he is a she.

 

So far, s/he is on amoxicillan for a UTI and we're waiting on results from a culture and sensitivity test. Otherwise, we have a happy, fun puppy who looks like a boy on quick look but doesn't fit in either the M or F boxes on a form.

 

Has anyone else had a hound with this set of equipment (or lack of)? If so, did you have to do anything about it?

 

Marcia in SC

Edited July 29, 2008 by MZH

[DaisyDoodle]

There was just an episode of Oprah about this very issue

[Guest greytexplorer]

ummmm, Marcia, does it really matter? I mean, if the dog has been "fixed".....

The peeing and UTI issue is what caught my eye.

Mandy has had a chronic UTI/bladder infection for almost the entire time I've had her.

Vet thinks it may be the way she is anatomically put together.

 

[greyhndz]

Interesting! This is called "ambiguous genitalia" in humans. There may be associated anomalies of the urinary or GI tracts, so as you said, Perry will to have some imaging done before his/her "gender reassignment" surgery. And they'll have to look carefully for any testicular remnants. Even though Perri may actually be male, it's probably far easier to reconstruct a female urethra and vulva than to try to construct a penis, though it'll be interesting to see what turns up when they actually explore in there.

 

Would you ask the surgeon to film the procedure? (you know me... I'm serious )

[galgrey]

I met someone several years ago that had a greyhound that was intersexed. They called referred to the dog as a "he", but he was anatomically the same as your dog. I do recall that the dog had some sort of a surgical procedure that was done correctively, but I never got a full explanation on it. I was very interested and had lots of questions, but the man I was dating at the time was "grossed out" by the discussion and cut it short.

[Guest Kitty_cat]

My ex-bf had a cocker spaniel that had both male/female body parts. At about 4 months old we brought her in to vet for a suspected uti: turns out she had a little penis growing in her vulva, even had a bone in it like a porper doggie penis. She was spayed shortly after and instead of ovaries she had testicles. The vet kept them in a jar of formalin Apart from the initial urinary concerns she never had anymore problems, hopefully everything will be fine with your hound too!

[Guest greyladydown]

I knew a family that had a normal male greyhound. Something went wrong after his neuter and the dog had to have a kind of sex reassignment surgery. His penis was removed. The surgery cost over $6,000.

 

 

[Guest LynnM]

Is there a cat-only clinic in your area? If so, have your vet consult with them. They will be very well-versed with moving a urethra around to wherever it needs to go to work right. That's the main issue here. The dog will be neutered eventually (probably later rather than sooner, since you'll be lucky to find any testicles or ovaries big enough to find right now), so that's no biggie. Is there an Os? If there's no os (bone), then whether or not there is a "penis" is not a huge deal (sorry to any male readers).

 

Anyway, the reason why I mentioned the cat-clinic is because male cats are notorious for blocking (because feline urinary tracts are VERY unique) and when a male blocks and it can't be medically managed, the only way to handle it is to "straighten out" his urinary tract. The normal urethra in 4-legged male mammals has a rather sharp curve in it. Whey you add crystals or other restrictions to it, things get complicated. In cats, the solution is sometimes to straighten the urethra out and have it go straight back.

 

Depending on how much urethra the pup has to work with (in other words, how far it extends into what would be called the "penis"), the surgeon will have to decide where the outlet will be. A surgeon that is experienced with cats will be a good judge of this and more familiar with this type of procedure. Urethras aren't something that a vet normally messes around with in dogs.

 

Lynn

Edited July 28, 2008 by LynnM

[Guest MZH]

There was just an episode of Oprah about this very issue

 

Yeah, I found that out an hour after it was on! LOL. Talk about synchronicity!

 

Marcia

 

ummmm, Marcia, does it really matter? I mean, if the dog has been "fixed".....

The peeing and UTI issue is what caught my eye.

Mandy has had a chronic UTI/bladder infection for almost the entire time I've had her.

Vet thinks it may be the way she is anatomically put together.

 

Oh, no, the dog's not been fixed yet. Speaking from prior experience four months is way too young for a Greyhound.

 

The UTI isn't apparently too severe; I thing Perry/i's feeling better. We may need to switch abx; we'll see. Like Mandy, I figured the UTI is because of the anatomy.

 

Marcia

[Guest MZH]

I knew a family that had a normal male greyhound. Something went wrong after his neuter and the dog had to have a kind of sex reassignment surgery. His penis was removed. The surgery cost over $6,000.

 

Oh, no!

 

My ex-bf had a cocker spaniel that had both male/female body parts. At about 4 months old we brought her in to vet for a suspected uti: turns out she had a little penis growing in her vulva, even had a bone in it like a porper doggie penis. She was spayed shortly after and instead of ovaries she had testicles. The vet kept them in a jar of formalin Apart from the initial urinary concerns she never had anymore problems, hopefully everything will be fine with your hound too!

 

That's encouraging; thank you for the info!

[Guest MZH]

Interesting! This is called "ambiguous genitalia" in humans. There may be associated anomalies of the urinary or GI tracts, so as you said, Perry will to have some imaging done before his/her "gender reassignment" surgery. And they'll have to look carefully for any testicular remnants. Even though Perri may actually be male, it's probably far easier to reconstruct a female urethra and vulva than to try to construct a penis, though it'll be interesting to see what turns up when they actually explore in there.

 

Would you ask the surgeon to film the procedure? (you know me... I'm serious )

 

Ms G, there will be a film crew and I will be present if this is going to require specialized surgery. After all, you don't call me Scoop for nothing.

 

Seriously, I never thought about GI problems. Tell me more. So far so good although "he" had a problem with one food we tried. Changed it and all is good again.

 

Marcia

 

I met someone several years ago that had a greyhound that was intersexed. They called referred to the dog as a "he", but he was anatomically the same as your dog. I do recall that the dog had some sort of a surgical procedure that was done correctively, but I never got a full explanation on it. I was very interested and had lots of questions, but the man I was dating at the time was "grossed out" by the discussion and cut it short.

 

It must be a guy thing.

[greyhndz]

The UTI isn't apparently too severe; I thing Perry/i's feeling better. We may need to switch abx; we'll see. Like Mandy, I figured the UTI is because of the anatomy.

 

Marcia

 

 

Scoop, until his plumbing has been straightened out and he can void normally, you might want to ask the vet if he should be on chronic antibiotics, because, not even taking into consideration what he's got for ureters and kidneys, if his bladder can't fully empty, he's a set up for recurrent infection. Or, you can straight cath him several times a day. (or at least try to express his bladder)

[Guest kbone]

Someone on GT had a hermaphrodite. I don't remember who though. This is different though?

[Guest MZH]

Someone on GT had a hermaphrodite. I don't remember who though. This is different though?

 

I was thinking this is different but on reading more and more, until we get inside, we probably won't know. The key is (probably) if there are both testes and ovaries, Perry will be a hermaphrodite. If not, s/he'll be intersexed. It's all very complicated.

 

Marcia

[Guest MZH]

The UTI isn't apparently too severe; I thing Perry/i's feeling better. We may need to switch abx; we'll see. Like Mandy, I figured the UTI is because of the anatomy.

 

Marcia

 

 

Scoop, until his plumbing has been straightened out and he can void normally, you might want to ask the vet if he should be on chronic antibiotics, because, not even taking into consideration what he's got for ureters and kidneys, if his bladder can't fully empty, he's a set up for recurrent infection. Or, you can straight cath him several times a day. (or at least try to express his bladder)

 

I tried expressing P's bladder and found nothing but muscle down there. Maybe I should try it before s/he pees. Or I may just be doing it all wrong.

 

They tried to catheretize "him" when they made the discovery but the cath never happened. I don't think I could do that anyway. The vet and I really need to have a chat today about all this!

 

 

 

 

[Mystella]

Stella is a hermaphrodite

 

this means she has characteristics of each sex (like a brain and a penis)

 

I can never resist that line

 

Okay back to the point we thought she was female but during her spay surgery they discovered that in addition to her girl parts she also had an undescended testicle and a hemi penis.

 

She has choses to live her life out as a diva girl and we respect that so don't be calling her Stanley or anything!!!!

 

 

[Meandmy]

Stella is a hermaphrodite

 

this means she has characteristics of each sex (like a brain and a penis)

 

OMG!! I know I'm of no help, but that just about made me fall out of my chair!

 

[BootsyCollins]

Anyway, the reason why I mentioned the cat-clinic is because male cats are notorious for blocking (because feline urinary tracts are VERY unique) and when a male blocks and it can't be medically managed, the only way to handle it is to "straighten out" his urinary tract. The normal urethra in 4-legged male mammals has a rather sharp curve in it. Whey you add crystals or other restrictions to it, things get complicated. In cats, the solution is sometimes to straighten the urethra out and have it go straight back.

 

My cat had that surgery...nobody ever believes me when I tell them that he had his penis amputated. We call his new opening his mangina.

 

He had it about 8 years and $3000 ago and, while he is more prone to UTI's, he is able to pass any crystals or stones that may form, so he's a much happier kitty. Oh, and he is a very messy pee-er. Seems he never will understand that his pee comes out in a different direction now!

 

She has choses to live her life out as a diva girl and we respect that so don't be calling her Stanley or anything!!!!

 

Stella I would never have guessed. You're a lovely lady.

[Guest MZH]

Stella is a hermaphrodite

 

this means she has characteristics of each sex (like a brain and a penis)

 

I can never resist that line

 

Okay back to the point we thought she was female but during her spay surgery they discovered that in addition to her girl parts she also had an undescended testicle and a hemi penis.

 

She has choses to live her life out as a diva girl and we respect that so don't be calling her Stanley or anything!!!!

 

You are too funny!

 

I have a feeling Perry wants to be Perry, not Perri. Time will tell!

 

Thanks for the post!

 

Marcia

[greyhndz]

I tried expressing P's bladder and found nothing but muscle down there. Maybe I should try it before s/he pees. Or I may just be doing it all wrong.

 

They tried to catheretize "him" when they made the discovery but the cath never happened. I don't think I could do that anyway. The vet and I really need to have a chat today about all this!

 

If the bladder isn't filled, it can be hard to palpate. I've been going through this with Lexi (iggy) who needs periodic taps for urine protein creatinine studies. Hopefully the vet can demonstrate for you how to help Perry empty his bladder.

 

I was doing a pubmed search last night for info on ambiguous genitalia and gonadal anomalies, but either the full-text articles weren't available or I came across mind-boggling chromosomal-arm XX, XY, XXY factoids.

[Guest MZH]

I tried expressing P's bladder and found nothing but muscle down there. Maybe I should try it before s/he pees. Or I may just be doing it all wrong.

 

They tried to catheretize "him" when they made the discovery but the cath never happened. I don't think I could do that anyway. The vet and I really need to have a chat today about all this!

 

If the bladder isn't filled, it can be hard to palpate. I've been going through this with Lexi (iggy) who needs periodic taps for urine protein creatinine studies. Hopefully the vet can demonstrate for you how to help Perry empty his bladder.

 

I was doing a pubmed search last night for info on ambiguous genitalia and gonadal anomalies, but either the full-text articles weren't available or I came across mind-boggling chromosomal-arm XX, XY, XXY factoids.

 

I figured it would be easier with urine in it but even so, I'd need to learn how to do it, no doubt.

 

I came up with the same kind of nothing as you did in my searches. Someone on VETMED posted a remarkable, right-on post about this ; I don't know what the keywords were but here's the link. Very interesting reading and with photos, too!

 

http://bakerinstitute.vet.cornell.edu/facu...page.php?id=206

 

Marcia

[Guest TippyTy]

Wow. This is absolutely fascinating!

 

Has Perry/i been karyotyped? Would that be something the vets would do before any surgery? I mean, just so they know what to expect during the procedure...

 

 

We call his new opening his mangina.

[Guest MZH]

We've only just discovered this last Thursday, so nothing's been done so far, other than scrape ourselves up off the floor from the shock and a urine culture and sensitivity. The results aren't in yet so that could be good news, since it was sent in on Friday afternoon.

 

People have mentioned karyotyping but have said it's very expensive. Any knowledge about this? I'm not even sure what that means yet; I haven't had time to study that aspect. I was hoping for a simple DNA test that will tell us if P is XX ir XY or "other." Does anyone know about that?

 

I expect that P may also wind up with a mangina.

 

Marcia

[Batmom]

Karyotype wouldn't really tell them what to expect during the procedure. If s/he has weird chromosomes, those could manifest themselves in all kinds of different ways.

[greyhndz]

http://bakerinstitute.vet.cornell.edu/facu...page.php?id=206

 

Marcia

 

 

Great resource! Do any of the photos seem to be comparable with Perry's genitalia? I wonder if you can send samples (don't know if she uses blood or sampling from cells in the mouth) to Dr. Meyers-Wallen - it may contribute to her database and she can also identify Perry's disorder for you.

 

OK, Scoop - cough it up. Time for photos!