Steroid Side-effects In Greys?

[Guest snowberry]

Herbie's been on 50mg a day prednisolone, 25mg twice a day, for just over a week. He went downhill so fast that we're having to taper the dose off as fast as we dare, but he's lost so much weight, and the muscle wasting on his back legs has been drastic. He's so weak that he can barely make it up stairs, or hold his leg up to pee, i'm having to wash him down every night because he's pee'd down his leg. I've searched on this forum, and there was a poster a while back said greys were less tolerant:

 

http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php?showto...=muscle+wasting

 

Does anyone know if there's a "safe" dose for greys, or have any experience of anything that counters the side effects?

 

 

[Burpdog]

Why is he on the pred? I've had numerous greys on pred with no noticable side effects from the pred.

 

Let's see if I can remember this right The theraputic dose (I hope that is the correct terminology) is 1 mg per # of body weight per day. Usually try to taper off after a week, but of course it depends on what the problem is.

[2hounds]

We had a good bit of muscle wasting with Mia. We are still in the tapering her off phase, but she finally seems to be putting on weight again. We aren't sure how much of her weight/muscle loss was due to the pred and how much was due to the Erlichea and resulting immune system crash.

 

If you are worried, talk to your vet about what you are seeing.

[Guest KennelMom]

We had Grandpa on a VERY small dose of pred...I don't recall exactly, but it was 1/4 of a pill every other day or something crazy like that. He was like a walking skeleton almost overnight and could not control his pee. I'd never seen anything like it

 

I wouldn't give it at all, especially a greyhound who already showed an intolerance for it. Our vet has to have an extremely good reason to prescribe pred to our pups and I'll never give it to Grandpa again.

[Batmom]

Didn't have any big issues with B but kept him mostly on a teensy dose to help his appetite. He did drink and pee more but the effect of that diminished after @ 7-10 days (while still taking the pred).

[Guest snowberry]

He's on the pred for discoid lupus with swollen lymph gland - instant response from lymph gland, and I was expecting some side effects, but not to the extent that he would go from a healthy active dog to one who can barely walk, in a week

 

I've seen the vet, who is also a little surprised at the amount of weight he's lost, but she's said we can't reduce the dose any faster in case of an adrenal crash. He's having plenty of other side effects, including pee accidents - he tells me, but it's as if I can't get to the door fast enough - and panting/overheating episodes, as well as lethargy, depression - a whole family of rabbits could dance round his bed and he'd be saying "yeah, whatever"...

[MP_the4pack]

Pearl was mis-diagnosed with myocytis and put on heavy pred doses. Within a week she looked awful and her BP skyrocketed. (she already had a high BP before preds) We started to wean her off after a week hoping that the pred took. Long story short, it wasn't myocytis, it was an abscessed tooth. But it took two months to get her off pred and her body starting to look better.

 

The vet is correct, you can't take him off preds, but you can start cutting back after just one week.

 

 

 

[Batmom]

Don't have enuf experience with the drug to advise about anything else, but the pee accidents -- I pretty much just took B out every 1.5-2 hours during the day and set my alarm for 5-6 hours overnight. Also covered the bedroom floor with old towels and comforters just in case I didn't get himself and myself up in time.

 

Hugs and hopes your pupper improves soon.

[Burpdog]

I'd email Ohio State and see if there is any other treatment available. Having taken pred myself for 6 years, I know how it can be. I've been lucky, or my feeling that if they need pred they use it well without horrible side effects, could be true.

 

Austin had muscle wasting (about 5% of his muscle) however, he was harboring cancer and was on a very low maintenance dose (10 mg a day).

 

Has he been tested for TBDs? (all of them)

 

edited to add: what is the step down dose plan you are suppose to do? I've been told if they have not been on it over 10 days you can take them down fairly quick.

Edited June 26, 2007 by Burpdog

[Aerosmom]

The only experience I have is with Cricket, who has been on Pred for about 10 months now. The highest dose she's taken has been 20 mg (10 mg a.m./p.m.) a day. She has spinal cord disease of unspecified origin. Even the 20 mg a day makes her hind end weak and her belly bloated. We have tapered down to a lower dose, but just haven't found the right level and have to bump her back up after relapses.

 

I'd ask some questions about reducing the dose.To my limited experience 50 mg/day seems high.

[Guest snowberry]

Thanks all, that really helps - he was in a bad way last night, breathing too fast, for hours, thought I was going to lose him - fortunately he settled in the end. He's on a step down regime of half a tablet (i.e. 12.5 mg) x 2 for 4 days, then half a tablet a day for 4 days, then half a tablet every other day for 8 days. Yesterday was the first day of only 12.5mg a day, and today he seems much brighter. Think maybe greyhounds, or this one at least, need smaller doses than ordinary dogs?

 

Re TBD: he tested negative for Lyme disease - I'm in the UK, and that's the only one we have over here.

[Burpdog]

I'd email Ohio State even though you are in the UK and see what they say

[lovinggreysslp]

Clay was on 20 mg of prednisolone 2 times per day when first diagnosed with PLE and IBD. He certainly had to go outside to pee frequently (and had accidents so belly band was invaluable), his heart raced, and he panted. We fortunately were able to reduce the prednisolone (when another medication was introduced) and all negative side effects have disappeared. When he was acutely ill, he lost a lot of weight and mucle tone but I am pleased to say that his strong thigh muscles are back and he can sprint around the yard after rabbits once again! The key to reducing the prednisolone for us was to reduce very slowly like you are doing. Also, when we got to a very low dose, reducing from 10 mg to 7.5 once per day, we would toggle betweeen one day 10, next day 7.5 for a week before being able to stay at 7.5.

[Guest SillyDog]

Well, 60 mg of pred during asthma attacks is enough to make me feel both wired & exhausted at the same time, so I can only imaging how Herbie must feel on what is equivalent to 3 times that dosage for me. I'm not saying he's on too high a dosage -- I'm sure your vet knows what he needs to stop the lupus.

 

To give you an idea of what Herbie's experiencing: my bp rises, I get a bad headache and my appetite goes haywire -- either I'm starving all the time for tomato & mustard sandwhiches (don't ask me why, but I get that craving EVERY time I go on prednisone) or I don't feel like eating at all. I also retain water to the point where I get cramps in my calves because of the pressure it puts on them. And even though I'm dreadfully tired, I also feel really edgy & ancy. The wired feeling overrides the exhaustion and I end up cleaning until I can drop.

 

The other thing is that prednisone will tap out his immune system. If his lymph node is swollen from the lupus, then you're fine. But, if he has some other sort of infection, you might need antibiotics or whatever is appropriate. The longest duration I've ever been on pred was 3 months for an exceptionally bad asthma attack, and it took about a year for my immune system to recover.

[Guest StarlaDear]

Starry (about 56-58 lbs at the time) was on 70 mg twice a day for almost a month when she was first diagnosed with thrombocytopenia (bad experience with a specialist)...she lost 13lbs and was so weak she could hardly walk. She only had energy to pant and sip water from a bowl i brought to her bed and go outside never less than every two hours. She also had bad elevations in her liver function tests as well....they (ALT and AST, or SGOT and SGPT?) were about 1,000 by the end of one month. When the dose was reduced she began to show improvement. The second time she was diagnosed she did 60mg twice a day for five days and was tapered from there. She did start to improve, but, after another couple of weeks of gradually reducing the dose she was changed to a once daily dose (instead of BID)...that is when i noticed the biggest turn around. I was encouraged to walk her as much as she could tolerate while on the pred to help with the muscle wasting and i added addt'l meat or eggs to her food when i was given the go ahead. All of her side effects (save the stretched out crepey skin from where her belly had been so bloated) reversed themselves eventually. I think she even managed after months of consistent walking, increasing the distance everytime she was able, to get most of her muscles back.

 

Just as a side question...with such a high dose of prednisone, are they on something for their stomach like pepcid or zantac? I was told that it was essential b/c the high doses of prednisone can cause ulcers. Starry was on 15mg twice a day. I gave her the pepcid first, waited twenty minutes, fed her her meals and then gave her prednisone after the meal, with the food in her stomach.

 

Good luck...we'll keep our fingers crossed and say a prayer for your pup.

 

Sami & My Dear, Sweet Starla

[Cynthia]

Absolutely.

 

Both Prednisolone and Prednisone are catabolic steroids. They break down everything! This seems counter to what we 'think' steroids do to the body. The steroids that build up muscle are anabolic steroids.

 

I had asked the very same question of Katie's neurologist after telling him (it felt silly, but I felt a need to share every possible clue) that her entire body shape had changed. Katie was at the point where she had no butt, and her ribcage seemed huge. I'm starting to see signs of a butt again, but every night I look for her tuck and it still hasn't returned She looks pregnant, and I worried for a while that she had a 10 pound tumor in there. She's a 58 pound girl, and this happened on just 40 mg a day for a week, titrating to 20 mg a day/10 mg/5 mg then every other day...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest sirsmom]

When Lucy was on pred for Optic Neuritis it was horrible. She panted all the time, peed all over the house and ate like a horse. After about 2 weeks I did notice her legs looked too thin for the rest of her body.

[3greys2cats]

Thanks all, that really helps - he was in a bad way last night, breathing too fast, for hours, thought I was going to lose him - fortunately he settled in the end. He's on a step down regime of half a tablet (i.e. 12.5 mg) x 2 for 4 days, then half a tablet a day for 4 days, then half a tablet every other day for 8 days. Yesterday was the first day of only 12.5mg a day, and today he seems much brighter. Think maybe greyhounds, or this one at least, need smaller doses than ordinary dogs?

 

Re TBD: he tested negative for Lyme disease - I'm in the UK, and that's the only one we have over here.

 

Just wanted to throw in my experience, I have a female grey(Sara) on prednisone since March, she has a brain disease(GME) and she was on 30 MG every 12 hours (2 times a day- so 60 MG a day, she was peeing every 1.5 - 2 hrs and phenabarbitol and antibiotics and pepcid !! It was bad, she lost weight and muscle & went from 65 lbs to 57, but within 3 weeks of her being on it and coming home, she gained back all her weight and then some and she is now tapered to 10 mg every other day, I did it in 2 week increments and she is much better. She has chemo every 4th week and low doses of the pred and phenabarb daily but she is much better. Hang in there, it's really tough to watch them breath heavy, as he gets weaned off of it, he will improve, many prayers to you from New Hampshire!!

[Fiona3]

I noticed this thread just after I posted on Hobbes - he has been on 30 mg per day Prednisone for a week and I have noticed him walking more wobbly and his legs seem thinner and weaker. He had also been panting a lot (although we have had record heat as well). Today we start the reduction to just 15 mg per day, then next week we go to every other day - then hopefully he won't need it. His treatment is for Irritable Bowel. This information is really helpful and I wish everyone success and good health for their greys.

[Guest greytmonty]

Monty takes Temaril P for his severe environmental allergies. he takes 3 pills twice per day. Here is the makeup of those pills.

Each tablet contains trimeprazine tartrate (USP) 10-[3-(Dimethylamino)-2-

methylpropyl] phenothiazine tartrate (2:1) equivalent to trimeprazine, 5 mg, and prednisolone, 2

mg.

ACTION: The exclusive Temaril-P formula combines the antipruritic and antitussive action of

trimeprazine with the anti-inflammatory action of prednisolone. A therapeutic effect is attained

by administering the tablets twice daily.

 

He may be a bit less muscled in his rear but this also corresponds with a decrease in his exercise level secondary to being bit, the heat, and his worsened summer allergies, so it is hard to say if it is the Pred. It looks like his total Pred intake is 12 mg/day based on the product information above.

 

At this point managing his severe allergies has to be our highest quality of life priority....