Z/d Diet/elimination Issues?

[christinepi]

Since I've transitioned Tracker over to Hill's z/d diet (food sensitivities) his stools have been fewer and much smaller. Has anyone else had the same experience?

[Time4ANap]

I know we had Rocket on that food at one time due to stomach issues. As I recall there is very little actual food in it and it was mostly additives and chemicals. I remember stopping it after a while because he was losing weight on it. I ended up just putting him on a bland diet of my own after that. I really don't have an answer for you on the stools, but I know as a food it wasn't nearly enough nutrition for him, so your experience with the output doesn't surprise me.

[greysmom]

Yes. Keep a close watch on his weight and energy levels. It's only chemical food, really, so it's not unusual that he doesn't have any poop!

 

Also, FWIW, my chicken sensitive dog could never tolerate this food. She is *ultra* sensitive and cannot have any chicken protein whatsoever - even when they say "hydrolyzed" or "mixed tocopherols" that are supposed to remove the offending protein chain in the food. One of the prescription diets is made entirely from processed feathers, and she can't tolerate that either. We can only keep her under control by eliminating every hint of chicken from her diet, which is surprizingly difficult to do when you consider treats too.

[XTRAWLD]

Yes. Keep a close watch on his weight and energy levels. It's only chemical food, really, so it's not unusual that he doesn't have any poop!

 

Also, FWIW, my chicken sensitive dog could never tolerate this food. She is *ultra* sensitive and cannot have any chicken protein whatsoever - even when they say "hydrolyzed" or "mixed tocopherols" that are supposed to remove the offending protein chain in the food. One of the prescription diets is made entirely from processed feathers, and she can't tolerate that either. We can only keep her under control by eliminating every hint of chicken from her diet, which is surprizingly difficult to do when you consider treats too.

I had to eliminate chicken for Kasey, whom was allergic, so I feel for you. There are a number of wonderful brands out there that don't use any chicken by-product or flavouring, but you just need to inspect the ingredient listing very very carefully. Keep in mind that turkey is not in the same family of poultry, so you might have good luck finding something with that instead. We used Sweet Potato and Fish from Natural Balance for a long while though.

 

Ryder is also on a script diet (not z/d) but I also feel it is not nutritious enough for him either. It's unfortunately very hard to find these kind of special diets that are not monopolized by the vet industry. If you can isolate what the sensitivity is, you can hopefully move onto another kibble that would be more nutritious for him. It is a long process though, good luck.

[christinepi]

Unfortunately I have no clue where to begin, other that a suggestion Dr Dodds at Hemopet gave me, which is to try a particular high quality brand's two meat-free dehydrated pre-mixes, and add some canned pure quail (nothing else in it other than quail liver and guar gum) from another company. She claims it works for her food sensitive Greyhounds. We'll see. Speaking of treats: I bought the z/d treats, which he likes, but if there's a chance that even the z/d contains ingredients that could trigger him I really don't know what to do.

 

While we humans think these vet diets are really bad nutrition, at least MY dog begs to differ on the likeability of the stuff. He LOVES all the z/d variations (canned, dry, treats). He'll probably loathe the one I'll try on him next, which is oh so healthy and nutritious...

[XTRAWLD]

While I know plenty about food allergies, food sensitivities are a bit of a different beast. Is there any kind of blood test you could do to help narrow things down like you can with allergies? (I'm guessing not, if the sensitivities result in tummy issues?)

Edited September 1, 2018 by XTRAWLD

[christinepi]

Not a test that works, apparently. It all seems to be just a rip-off. I fell for it and did a saliva test with Tracker, and according to that he's reactive to 24 out of 24 tested foods, but I'm not sure I believe it, after everything I've read. It would be so nice. Now none of the ingredients he was tested for are in the suggested foods I mentioned above, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't trigger him, too.

[greysmom]

There are ways to go through a food sensitivity trial without buying commercial dog food. You just have to be disciplined in cooking and feeding. All you *need* to do is find what he reacts to, then you can switch off to an appropriate commercial diet.

 

The most common allergies/sensitivities are to corn and chicken, so that's where you begin. Choose a neutral carb source like rice or pasta, peeled white potatoes, sweet potatoes, even bland beans like adzuki beans or chick peas can be used as a food carb (they are all used in commercial food diets as well). You can prep and freeze large quantities to make it easier throughout the work week.

 

Same with the protein source - choose something other than chicken. Turkey is what eventually worked for Lilly, longterm, but she also tolerates pork and beef. Lots of people have success using mild white fish like Tilapia that isn't too expensive to buy or difficult to cook. Lilly also likes canned solid albacore tuna and usually has a snack of a can every day. I used ground amounts of the meat I chose, and again, prepped a bunch on Sunday.

 

Veggies can be good if he will eat them as they add vitamins and minerals. Though for the short term most dogs will do OK with a very limited diet.

 

You can also just dump everything in a crock pot (carb source, protein source, any veggies, water), and cook it overnight into a mushy stew. Portion out meals and freeze.

 

You need to feed your selections for about 4-6 weeks (unless you see a bad reaction sooner) before movingon the the next combination.

 

Once you find out what he's reacting to you can then work on finding a commercial food he likes and will eat. Then you watch the ingredients like a hawk for any changes. I've had to switch commercial foods twice now when the companies changed formulas to add in something she can't have.

 

It's a PITA to get through but you will see a difference when he's getting nutrition fro

[christinepi]

There are ways to go through a food sensitivity trial without buying commercial dog food. You just have to be disciplined in cooking and feeding. All you *need* to do is find what he reacts to, then you can switch off to an appropriate commercial diet.

 

The most common allergies/sensitivities are to corn and chicken, so that's where you begin. Choose a neutral carb source like rice or pasta, peeled white potatoes, sweet potatoes, even bland beans like adzuki beans or chick peas can be used as a food carb (they are all used in commercial food diets as well). You can prep and freeze large quantities to make it easier throughout the work week.

 

Same with the protein source - choose something other than chicken. Turkey is what eventually worked for Lilly, longterm, but she also tolerates pork and beef. Lots of people have success using mild white fish like Tilapia that isn't too expensive to buy or difficult to cook. Lilly also likes canned solid albacore tuna and usually has a snack of a can every day. I used ground amounts of the meat I chose, and again, prepped a bunch on Sunday.

 

Veggies can be good if he will eat them as they add vitamins and minerals. Though for the short term most dogs will do OK with a very limited diet.

 

You can also just dump everything in a crock pot (carb source, protein source, any veggies, water), and cook it overnight into a mushy stew. Portion out meals and freeze.

 

You need to feed your selections for about 4-6 weeks (unless you see a bad reaction sooner) before movingon the the next combination.

 

Once you find out what he's reacting to you can then work on finding a commercial food he likes and will eat. Then you watch the ingredients like a hawk for any changes. I've had to switch commercial foods twice now when the companies changed formulas to add in something she can't have.

 

It's a PITA to get through but you will see a difference when he's getting nutrition fro

 

Wow, thanks for all that. The amount of time I already spend in my kitchen because of a particular diet I myself need to keep is exorbitant and the idea of spending ever more time in it makes me go dizzy, but I'll do it if the vegetarian/quail combo doesn't work for Tracker. I hear you on companies changing formulas. That's really good to know.

[cleptogrey]

greysmom said it perfectly. i believe in home cooked diets to figure out what's going on w/ possible sensitiives. i use a rice cooker vs. a crockpot due to the fact that i hate stewed dishes and only own a rice cooker. a good friend's old saluki was 14 and doing poorly. his issues ultimately were due to food allergies. after umpteen visits to vets everywhere and she was contemplating euthanasia ( his reaction was not breathing well and a general decline in weight and spirit) i said, "what do you have to loose. try my rice and i source of protein feeding." it worked, his allergies cleared up and he lived to 18!

 

for me allergic reactions which are sensitives to food generally involves the food's source of nourishment. i can't go near any of the farmed fish- the plankton and antibiotics they are fed will induce a full fledged reaction, head to toe hives. also, i watch it with chicken. organic or kosher chicken are fine, the rest are fed huge amounts of garbage including antibiotics. now even awful Perdue chicken are selling "no antibiotic" fed chicken. you might try a novel source of protein and one carb at a time and old fashioned vitamins. i know Felix who i now cook for will not go near his food if veggies are pureed and added in.

 

Just curious how old is your dog now?

[christinepi]

greysmom said it perfectly. i believe in home cooked diets to figure out what's going on w/ possible sensitiives. i use a rice cooker vs. a crockpot due to the fact that i hate stewed dishes and only own a rice cooker. a good friend's old saluki was 14 and doing poorly. his issues ultimately were due to food allergies. after umpteen visits to vets everywhere and she was contemplating euthanasia ( his reaction was not breathing well and a general decline in weight and spirit) i said, "what do you have to loose. try my rice and i source of protein feeding." it worked, his allergies cleared up and he lived to 18!

 

for me allergic reactions which are sensitives to food generally involves the food's source of nourishment. i can't go near any of the farmed fish- the plankton and antibiotics they are fed will induce a full fledged reaction, head to toe hives. also, i watch it with chicken. organic or kosher chicken are fine, the rest are fed huge amounts of garbage including antibiotics. now even awful Perdue chicken are selling "no antibiotic" fed chicken. you might try a novel source of protein and one carb at a time and old fashioned vitamins. i know Felix who i now cook for will not go near his food if veggies are pureed and added in.

 

Just curious how old is your dog now?

 

He'll be 12 in December.

[cleptogrey]

https://www.hillspet.com/dog-food/pd-zd-canine-dry

 

here is the low down on the z diet- it's a real low calorie food. therefore small poops. basically your feeding him chopped liver- hire my 95 year old mom to make it for him! she loves the stuff- no one else can stand it. AND our neighbor's dog rocky lived to nearly 18 on fried kosher liver every day of his life!

 

when was the last time you had blood work run? there can be other things going on, thyroid if he's have skin and coat issues. at 12 these greyhounds really do age rapidly so i notice w/ my 11.5 year old. his rapid aging started in conjuction to lyme disease.

 

if it's not thyroid related then just remember you got yourself an old man. what ever keeps him happy food wise, just give it to him. clay does a really good job binding. it's much better than Owelo carrots. supplements can be added, vit b6 amino acid complex or just a good multi-vitamin and let him enjoy.

 

if it's itching, i found that with my late welsh terrier who really reacted to ground mold a quick hosing down w/ plain water kept the allergens at bay and we had no more hot spots! i never thought about food allergies since it was seasonal- along w/ the start of ragweed and the change in weather here in the east.

Edited September 2, 2018 by cleptogrey

[cleptogrey]

just wanted to add that around 6-8 months prior to felix's thyroid going wonky his coat and skin looked like c***p! i already had him on cold pressed salmon oil and nupro. i changed to a fish based food and even treated his coat and horrible skin w/ Humalac. His t4 was low but still with in gh range. Then the next thyroid test was not very good. He's been supplemented since. Just wanted to throw that in.

[christinepi]

https://www.hillspet.com/dog-food/pd-zd-canine-dry

 

here is the low down on the z diet- it's a real low calorie food. therefore small poops. basically your feeding him chopped liver- hire my 95 year old mom to make it for him! she loves the stuff- no one else can stand it. AND our neighbor's dog rocky lived to nearly 18 on fried kosher liver every day of his life!

 

when was the last time you had blood work run? there can be other things going on, thyroid if he's have skin and coat issues. at 12 these greyhounds really do age rapidly so i notice w/ my 11.5 year old. his rapid aging started in conjuction to lyme disease.

 

if it's not thyroid related then just remember you got yourself an old man. what ever keeps him happy food wise, just give it to him. clay does a really good job binding. it's much better than Owelo carrots. supplements can be added, vit b6 amino acid complex or just a good multi-vitamin and let him enjoy.

 

if it's itching, i found that with my late welsh terrier who really reacted to ground mold a quick hosing down w/ plain water kept the allergens at bay and we had no more hot spots! i never thought about food allergies since it was seasonal- along w/ the start of ragweed and the change in weather here in the east.

 

I adjusted the amounts of cups upwards so the caloric content would match what he ate before, and still the poops are small and few. Weird. He had bloodwork done just 3-4 weeks ago, and he is on thyroid meds and gets checked every year or more. Maybe I should get it checked more often.

 

Where do I get clay? Even if that were to firm up the poop, wouldn't the underlying issues still need to be addressed? He's not itching, it's all intestinal. How do I find out whether it's just old age and age related intestinal idiosyncrasies or something in need of addressing? He did get an abdominal ultrasound 4 weeks ago, all normal. It's maddening to figure out what's best for the dog. But one thing I know is I loathe that z/d stuff.

[greysmom]

I would not start messing around with adding other things in to his diet while doing a food trial. If you have a reliable opinion that his issues are food related rather than from some other source, stick with testing that theory. Once he is able to eat and gain nutrition from his food you can better see how his digestive tract is operating.

[christinepi]

I would not start messing around with adding other things in to his diet while doing a food trial. If you have a reliable opinion that his issues are food related rather than from some other source, stick with testing that theory. Once he is able to eat and gain nutrition from his food you can better see how his digestive tract is operating.

 

Even if his stool consistency is deteriorating? It's sometimes greenish now, and feels like goo, or is very very soft...

 

"Reliable" being the key word. I mostly trust this vet who put him on the z/d diet, but not completely. Another vet (whom I don't know personally) claims that there are still regular proteins (non-hydrolized ones) in the z/d diet because otherwise there'd be no nutrition at all. So what's the point of this diet then? This is so confusing. I just know that things aren't improving, rather getting worse.

 

He's been on z/d 100% only for 4 days after the transition of about a week. So am I overreacting, maybe? He also had a bout of coccidiosis 5 weeks ago which was treated with Albon, but things never fully cleared up, even though a second stool test came back negative. I'm going to drop off another sample tomorrow.

[christinepi]

I would not start messing around with adding other things in to his diet while doing a food trial. If you have a reliable opinion that his issues are food related rather than from some other source, stick with testing that theory. Once he is able to eat and gain nutrition from his food you can better see how his digestive tract is operating.

 

To give you an example why I'm not sure I entirely trust the doc who put him on z/d, one of the things she said was that when asked how often Tracker normally poops per day I said a good 6-7 times (generally 2 or even 3 times per morning walks, less in the afternoon/evening) she responded this was NOT NORMAL. I said well he's been doing this for all the 8.5 years I've had him; she insisted this still wasn't normal. I have nothing to compare it to, so what do I know, but he's always been healthy, so why not 6-7 times? Maybe he likes spreading it out?

 

You'd think an ultrasound IS reliable (or the interpretation thereof by the radiologist), which saw no trouble in the GI tract/stomach etc. But maybe there's stuff he missed? I wonder whether I shouldn't see a specialist.

[cleptogrey]

Vitamin RX Clay, my whippets breeder who is a vet tech and professional handler gave me some for felix. The measure is 1/8t. Felix gets 4 or 5 measures, much less than the recommended dose.his stool could only be washed away prior to starting it.i bought it on Amazon.

 

When I changed the dogs over to pro plan their stool reduced from 4-6 movements to maybe 2. It seemed strange not picking up on a walk and I was tons of poop bags.

Edited September 3, 2018 by cleptogrey

[christinepi]

Vitamin RX Clay, my whippets breeder who is a vet tech and professional handler gave me some for felix. The measure is 1/8t. Felix gets 4 or 5 measures, much less than the recommended dose.his stool could only be washed away prior to starting it.

 

When I changed the dogs over to pro plan their stool reduced from 4-6 movements to maybe 2. It seemed strange not picking up on a walk and I was tons of poop bags.

Thanks for that !