Aggression Getting Worse - Am I Doing Something Wrong

[MattB]

I've posted a few times about Charlie, my 7yo boy and what I always called 'fear aggression' as it (barking aggressively and pulling towards the other dog) usually related to big off-leash dogs or dogs pulling on their own leash trying to get to him.

 

I was convinced that he was calming down and we got to the point of only reacting when a dog was particularly rude i.e. ran towards him barking at him.

 

However in the last few months we seem to have gone in the other direction, I have him muzzled all the time after he went for a small dog (owner didn't have it on a leash but it was paying no interest in Charlie at all).

 

Health-wise we've had a check up recently, in fact we had to wait in a separate waiting room because Charlie was being aggressive in the waiting room. [i posted in a separate thread that he was due to have a small lump removed but the vet has now postponed as he thinks it looks to be disappearing and we're reviewing in 2 week's time]

 

Through this Charlie has always been fine with other greyhounds, as I'm told is common; we went to a show with dozens of other greys a while ago and he didn't bat an eyelid.

 

But today we went to walk a greyhound (tiny 7yo girl) at our local shelter, I thought being introduced on the walk would be a good thing but Charlie behaved very aggressively towards her (lunging at her and trying to bite through his muzzle), we went on to have an uneventful walk with one of them in each hand and my wife walking our other hound but then towards the end of it he lunged/ pounced on her, she (understandably) reacted in the same spirit and I had to drag them apart.

 

Noone is hurt but I'm so upset that this happened, we'd been told that this hound is really unhappy in the kennels and is scared of all the wind we've been having, we'd thought about giving her a home but this reaction has surprised and really shaken me up.

 

I'd really appreciate some advice, I'm planning on getting back to consistently giving treats when other dogs come into view (I do this less than I should, mainly because I need all my hands ready to control Charlie) but is there anything else I should be looking at?

 

 

[philospher77]

Have you had a professional behaviorist or really skilled trainer come and work with you one-on-one? It sounds like you are doing all the "generic" things I would recommend, and without seeing the actual situation, I would hesitate on giving more advice. There could be some subtle signs that you are missing that would be useful in determining the next steps that you should do, and giving the wrong advice in this sort of situation could easily make the situation worse. even the "feeding when other dogs come into view" could make the situation worse, if the other dog is too close at the time it comes into view.

[MattB]

I should add that, Charlie has a group of dogs who he knows, in-laws's spaniel and my mum's greyhound (and late lurcher) who he is 100% with, even when my mum's dog winds him up he never reacts. He met all these dogs before we got our second greyhound when he was a much calmer dog, although I think he had started to bark before we got Daisy.

[MattB]

Have you had a professional behaviorist or really skilled trainer come and work with you one-on-one? It sounds like you are doing all the "generic" things I would recommend, and without seeing the actual situation, I would hesitate on giving more advice. There could be some subtle signs that you are missing that would be useful in determining the next steps that you should do, and giving the wrong advice in this sort of situation could easily make the situation worse. even the "feeding when other dogs come into view" could make the situation worse, if the other dog is too close at the time it comes into view.

 

Thank you - Yes, we had someone visit a while ago, I was happy at the time but I think he did give us fairly generic advice and disappointingly he didn't want to go outside on a walk and see the situation in action so it was more like a consultation which Charlie slept through and yes, like you say it was fairly generic. On reflection I'm not sure the behaviourist was too happy about venturing outside in our neighbourhood! That was the only trainer I could find who would come to us. We had started off going to dog classes when we first got Charlie - in fact, this was basically a room full of dogs who barked at each other so maybe this wasn't the best introduction to other dogs.

 

Sorry I went off on a tangent - the reason I wanted someone to come to our house was that Charlie is much worse in his locality.

[Guest MnMDogs]

Have you had a professional behaviorist or really skilled trainer come and work with you one-on-one? It sounds like you are doing all the "generic" things I would recommend, and without seeing the actual situation, I would hesitate on giving more advice. There could be some subtle signs that you are missing that would be useful in determining the next steps that you should do, and giving the wrong advice in this sort of situation could easily make the situation worse. even the "feeding when other dogs come into view" could make the situation worse, if the other dog is too close at the time it comes into view.

 

I second this suggestion. PIease contact a behaviorist for a 1:1, it was invaluable for us when working with our Macy May's fear reactivity.

Thank you - Yes, we had someone visit a while ago, I was happy at the time but I think he did give us fairly generic advice and disappointingly he didn't want to go outside on a walk and see the situation in action so it was more like a consultation which Charlie slept through and yes, like you say it was fairly generic. On reflection I'm not sure the behaviourist was too happy about venturing outside in our neighbourhood! That was the only trainer I could find who would come to us. We had started off going to dog classes when we first got Charlie - in fact, this was basically a room full of dogs who barked at each other so maybe this wasn't the best introduction to other dogs.

 

Sorry I went off on a tangent - the reason I wanted someone to come to our house was that Charlie is much worse in his locality.

I just saw this, I think you need to have someone observe Charlie with other dogs. I never imagined Macy's aggression was fear based (she sure never seemed afraid) but that's what it was. We actually went to the trainer who carefully managed interactions with her extremely well adjusted dogs.

[krissy]

You should look into whether there are any "Reactive Rover" classes in your area. These are group setting classes at a training facility that specifically works on dog and/or leash reactivity, generally in a large room utilizing visual barriers and such in the beginning. My local humane society runs a great version of this class. Maybe you can find one in your area as well.

[Remolacha]

I agree, taking him to a good behaviorist is the next step. Going to the professional will help you and Charlie learn new behaviors that should transfer to your local environment. I had a greyhound that sounds very like Charlie. Fletcher got along with most other greys, but occasionally reacted to one that (as far as I could tell) gave him what he considered "attitude" He was fine with dogs he knew, and, as I said, most sighthounds. He was also very protective of me, my other dogs, and our home territory, very un-greyhound like

 

I think if you keep working with him, you can get him to a good place, but you will always have to be very aware of your surroundings, you will probably never be able to completely relax outside your home. I never realized how hyper aware I always was until after Fletcher passed.

[greysmom]

I've forgotten from previously, but have you had his thyroid levels checked? Make sure you read up on greyhound thyroid numbers and issues in the H&M seciton prior to discussing this with your vet.

 

I'm not usually a big proponent of running off to the vet for thyroid values - most greyhounds have *very* low readings compared to toher dogs, and thyroid supplementation is vastly over done for this bree - but one of the things to watch with hypothyroidism is fear aggression. Our adoption group recently got four or five dogs in and they all had some level of fear aggression or leash reactivity. Thyroid testing was inconclusive, but they were all started on supplementation anyway. All but one of them responded positively and became much calmer dogs, and got adopted.

 

Also, this book by trainer Patricia McConnell might be informative

"Feisty Fido: Help for the Leash Reactive Dog"

https://smile.amazon.com/Feisty-Fido-Help-Leash-Reactive-Dog-ebook/dp/B001DA99CG/ref=sr_1_10?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1484176981&sr=1-10&keywords=patricia+mcconnell

[Guest Rainy]

The (very experienced) trainer I see for Kala's "extracurricular" classes specializes in helping people with their aggressive dogs. She teaches Brenda Aloff's method - check out the book if you can: Brenda Aloff, Get Connected with Your Dog. She also has a book that'a specifically on aggression, "Aggression in Dogs". And another, which I found useful, called, "Canine Body Language, A Photographic Guide."

[MattB]

The (very experienced) trainer I see for Kala's "extracurricular" classes specializes in helping people with their aggressive dogs. She teaches Brenda Aloff's method - check out the book if you can: Brenda Aloff, Get Connected with Your Dog. She also has a book that'a specifically on aggression, "Aggression in Dogs". And another, which I found useful, called, "Canine Body Language, A Photographic Guide."

Thanks I will certainly try to get hold of this book.

[MattB]

Thanks for your comments everyone.

 

I think I've probably been too optimistic and haven't put in enough work. I'm now treating Patricia McConnell's 'Feisty Fido' book like a bible and being really strict with myself (and Charlie) about taking treats on every walk and doing 'watch' exercises.

 

One of the difficulties I have is that Charlie seems to switch off after a while and almost zone out of any interacting with me. He used to do this at dog class when we started (this was partly why we stopped classes), he would concentrate for about 20 minutes and then just lie down, at this point, no food would motivate him to do anything. He's like this on the walks, he seems to loose interest fairly quickly compared to our other hound.

 

The other big change is martial arts classes (for me - not for Charlie!). I'm trying to understand (and improve on) my impact on Charlie's reactivity and think that increasing my own self-confidence can only help. I'm more confident about dealing with off-leash dogs than I am with confrontation of any sorts with other dog owners.

 

[Roo]

 

 

The other big change is martial arts classes (for me - not for Charlie!). I'm trying to understand (and improve on) my impact on Charlie's reactivity and think that increasing my own self-confidence can only help. I'm more confident about dealing with off-leash dogs than I am with confrontation of any sorts with other dog owners.

 

 

It certainly does help! My self-confidence was at its highest when I was in martial arts classes. What martial art? Apologies if this derails your thread - I used to take Taekwondo and Jeet Kune Do and miss it terribly. I see "martial arts" and get all excited

[JohnF]

Often if you 'try to hard' you cancel out what your body language really means, and especially so if you missed any calming signals your dog was showing.

See what I mean here:

 

But some dogs are just 'mental' anyway and if you've had all the medical evaluations done then it's just in the genes and the reaction to individual life experiences. Because of this not every dog gets to reach a happy and sedate old age; there is no blame in keeping a dog muzzled when it is unreliable and perhaps this is as good as it gets and trying too hard make the dog react by being quicker at being reactive. What if Charlie is getting the wrong message and frantically trying to do the wrong thing even faster because he thinks THAT'S you're stressed about him not being quick enough?

[Guest Rainy]

"One of the difficulties I have is that Charlie seems to switch off after a while and almost zone out of any interacting with me. He used to do this at dog class when we started (this was partly why we stopped classes), he would concentrate for about 20 minutes and then just lie down, at this point, no food would motivate him to do anything. He's like this on the walks, he seems to loose interest fairly quickly compared to our other hound."

 

He could be zoning out because he's tired and needs a mental break. When I'm training Kala and she's had enough, she starts to do things like sniff randomly, go lay down, or just outright ignore me. 20 minutes is a looong time to be training continuously, and hounds are notorious for having short attention spans.

 

Or maybe he needs better treats? You may already be using Really Good Treats (cheese bits, pepperoni, salmon crunchies, etc) but sometimes you need a secret stash of OH MY GOD treats (raw bacon, swedish meatballs, raw meat, etc) to bring them "back to life", so to speak.

 

Also, my trainer said once that after a "reactive" event it takes something like 30minutes for a dog's adrenaline to flush out. In that time, training is very ineffective, because he's just too ramped up to absorb anything. Same goes for you...confrontations can be very stressful (been there done that) and it takes time to settle down from that stress high and start thinking clearly again. Could have something to do with his walks...

Edited February 8, 2017 by Rainy

[Guest Amber]

Could it be that he is simply more stressed at the moment? With my reactive grey, if *I* was more stressed or a bit down (which tended to happen over the long dark winter time) he got a lot worse.

 

Also you say that the GH bitch was stressed out about storms, he could have picked up on her general stressiness and reacted as well.

 

One thing I learnt with my Oscar is that it was best to stop trying to 'fix' him all the time and just accept him for who he was and have low expectations.

So not put him into situations where he was under pressure, not expect him to behave well particularly and not get upset if he did have a reaction to a dog, for whatever reason. They are so sensitive to our moods and feelings.

 

It's lovely that you want to help out walking dogs at your local rescue , but maybe your lad would enjoy it more if that time was spent 1 - 1 with him, playing some games in the house, or having a cuddle or going for a quiet, relaxed walk somewhere pretty much dog-free.

 

I would just stick to doing stuff with him that leaves you both feeling good about yourselves; you have two dogs to look after, so stretching yourself thin by walking other dogs etc won't really help? Sorry, hope that doesn't come across as patronising - it's just, I've been in a similar place as you years ago and now I put my own dogs and my own needs first; frankly although it's great that people help rescue dogs and fostering and stuff, I leave that to others who take it all in their stride, as I don't need the extra stress!

[MattB]

 

It certainly does help! My self-confidence was at its highest when I was in martial arts classes. What martial art? Apologies if this derails your thread - I used to take Taekwondo and Jeet Kune Do and miss it terribly. I see "martial arts" and get all excited

 

Wing Chun - I didn't know much about it until I gave it a go, makes my brain hurt a bit!

 

Could it be that he is simply more stressed at the moment? With my reactive grey, if *I* was more stressed or a bit down (which tended to happen over the long dark winter time) he got a lot worse.

 

Also you say that the GH bitch was stressed out about storms, he could have picked up on her general stressiness and reacted as well.

 

One thing I learnt with my Oscar is that it was best to stop trying to 'fix' him all the time and just accept him for who he was and have low expectations.

So not put him into situations where he was under pressure, not expect him to behave well particularly and not get upset if he did have a reaction to a dog, for whatever reason. They are so sensitive to our moods and feelings.

 

It's lovely that you want to help out walking dogs at your local rescue , but maybe your lad would enjoy it more if that time was spent 1 - 1 with him, playing some games in the house, or having a cuddle or going for a quiet, relaxed walk somewhere pretty much dog-free.

 

I would just stick to doing stuff with him that leaves you both feeling good about yourselves; you have two dogs to look after, so stretching yourself thin by walking other dogs etc won't really help? Sorry, hope that doesn't come across as patronising - it's just, I've been in a similar place as you years ago and now I put my own dogs and my own needs first; frankly although it's great that people help rescue dogs and fostering and stuff, I leave that to others who take it all in their stride, as I don't need the extra stress!

 

Thanks Amber - I know you've said before we seem to have had similar behaviour issues with our hounds. I don't want to fix Charlie just so he's 'better', I genuinely think that he would have a better quality of life, for example if my wife could take him out on a walk (she's not confident as last time he went crazy and dragged her across a path to get to another dog). I do love him unconditionally, he doesn't really ask for much, just wants me to be in the house with him.

 

As for the animal shelter - it was just a couple of walks with a new greyhound they had in, I don't go there regularly, I agree with you there.