Behavioralist Or Greyhound Experienced Trainer?

[PatricksMom]

So we're realizing that in many ways Patrick was a super easy dog. Murphy was very easy, Henry's been pretty good. But we're having a lot of trouble with Leo. He's aggressive to non-greyhounds. He's leash walked and so far we haven't had a problem keeping him away from other dogs, but yesterday got so agitated on leash he snapped at Henry.

 

And while he's still being treated for a UTI he clearly can control himself but he's taking up peeing in his crate whenever he doesn't like being crated. In general, I'm fine with not crating, but I'm not sure that's a good idea right now. And his issues are making training hard with Henry, they like each other, but Henry's regressed since we adopted Leo.

 

We talked about it last night and realized we need help and we can't take the boys to an obedience class because of Leo's issues. I've contacted a trainer who referred us to a fellow trainer who's had greyhounds. Does this seem like a good place to start, with private obedience work? Or should we be looking for a behavioralist?

 

I don't want to give the impression that Leo's a bad dog--he really is lovely and sweet and cuddly, I think most of it is our fault because we're not very good at training and we probably should have called in a professional sooner. And he used to be very mouthy, so I trained him to let me hold his snout instead, which he loves, but I'm not sure how to correct him when we're walking then. We've made a lot of progress on not jumping and on leash manners in general, but not much else.

[greysmom]

Hopefully Giselle will chime in and give you some informed direction.

 

My own feeling is that either could work in this case, and doing something (as long as it's positive and helpful) is better than doing nothing.

[Batmom]

Don't assume you can't take him to class. Most dogs act differently in that situation than they do when out and about.

 

Meantime, muzzles are your friend, in the house if he does better uncrated and on walks if need be. Just remember that if you muzzle one, you must muzzle both when they are unattended.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Batmom

[NeylasMom]

True certified behaviorists (who have a higher degree in animal behavior) are few and far between and very expensive and none of the issues you're describing are anything that couldn't be handled by a trainer with a good education/background in animal behavior and learning so I think working with a trainer is fine provided you find a good one. I would be looking for someone who does not use any correction or punishment in their training and who has a solid understanding of both classical and operant conditioning and uses food based (and other) rewards.

 

If it were me working with you, for the dog reactivity, I'd be having you work on classical counter-conditioning to change Leo's feelings about other dogs. You do this by feeding any time Leo is in the presence of another dog. I'd also be giving you tools that utilize operant conditioning to help you deal with situations where a dog springs up on you and you either need to get away quickly or need a way to handle Leo until the dog goes by. I really like the ready, get it game for keeping the dog's attention elsewhere, and a solid emergency "let's go" that gets you out of a situation quickly. I know Giselle likes the "look at me" game for this type of situation. A lot of this is covered in Emma Parsons "Click to Calm" or you may even be able to find a reactive dog class at a training school near you.

 

For the crating, making sure you are creating a positive association with the crate is key. It may just be the UTI that's still in play there so you obviously need to get that cleared up, but making sure you are doing some crating when you are home so he doesn't associate it with you leaving, plus making sure lots of good stuff happens in there, meals, stuffed kongs, etc. Making sure he's well exercised and tired when you leave, and leaving him with something to do (again, somehing like a stuffed kong) should also help.

 

I'm just trying to give you an idea of some of the things I'd recommend so you know if you're on the right track with the trainer you hire. This is the type of stuff she should be telling you. Also, stress builds, so looking at overall stressors in Leo's life and what you can do to minimize them, either by removing them or managing his environment better will be key.

Finally, I really recommend separating dogs by baby gates, x-pens, etc. rather than muzzling them if you are concerned about their interactions when you aren't there. The muzzles will prevent any major injuries, but it won't prevent altercations that can increase stress/tension amongst the dogs. THe last thing to consider if you are going to start leaving Leo uncrated is whether he has access to windows or doors where he could watch dogs go by and get worked up. If that's the case, you absolutely need to figure out a way to either restrict his access or cover those windows so he can't see out of them when you're not there to work with him.

 

I hope that helps.

[PatricksMom]

Jen, that is very helpful, thank you for spelling all that out. Right now the boys are crated when we aren't home (which is rarely for more than an hour a day) because my gut feeling is that they're not ready to be loose. I hadn't though of getting out the Kong, I'll try that.

 

I'm not sure what could be stressing him out. He's not thrilled when we leave, but it doesn't seem to be SA, he just prefers us to be home, and he's otherwise a very laid back dog unless he's around other breeds. We do have a lot of other dogs in our complex, so fortunately or unfortunately, he's encountering several dogs on most of his walks.

 

I know it won't fix everything, but we're in the process of buying a house with a large yard and I'm hoping lots of daily off leash time in addition to walking will help somewhat.

[Guest MnMDogs]

Macy is extremely leash reactive. We assumed she was just aggressive, but when we met one on one with a trainer and her incredibly calm, well behaved dogs, we learned that her response was a fear response. Upon meeting the trainer's dogs in a large room, Macy's first response was to hide behind me and tuck her tail. These were friendly, restrained dogs, so it was a shock to see that our fearsome hound was actually afraid.

 

What has worked is counter-conditioning as Jen mentioned above. Treat every time we walk past a dog... it took all of 1 or 2 walks for her to look at me immediately upon seeing a dog, or hearing a dog bark. We still have our moments - when we pass her nemesis for example. If I don't call her name, and treat before she starts to react at one dog's house (whether the dog is out or not), I lose her. But it's much easier to get her attention back now. I also found when we started this, it was easier to walk her and Greg separately so I could really focus on Macy and our surroundings.

 

I agree with Batmom, that you may not need to rule out classes. Mandy (the trainer we met), actually thought Macy would be fine in classes after we started with the counter conditioning work. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to attend any simply because of my travel schedule and the class timing.

 

Good luck. I remember how much I hated walking her until we finally made the decision to get professional help!

[NeylasMom]

 

I'm not sure what could be stressing him out. He's not thrilled when we leave, but it doesn't seem to be SA, he just prefers us to be home, and he's otherwise a very laid back dog unless he's around other breeds. We do have a lot of other dogs in our complex, so fortunately or unfortunately, he's encountering several dogs on most of his walks.

I know it won't fix everything, but we're in the process of buying a house with a large yard and I'm hoping lots of daily off leash time in addition to walking will help somewhat.

Every incident where he reacts at another dog is a stressor. Chemicals are released from the brain every time and it takes a long time (I can't remember the exact amount, maybe Giselle will know, but we're talking a couple of days not minutes or even hours) for the dog to "come back down", meaning he'll be more prone to react at something that might not otherwise elicit a response the next time around. So a huge part of the training with a reactive dog is learning how to prevent him from ever "going over threshold". Not to mention that the behavior is self-reinforcing. He barks, and inevitably the thing he's afraid of (the other dog) goes away (because either you turn it hightail it the other way or the owner with the other dog does because she's afraid of your crazy beast ).

 

In the interim, I would try increasing the exercise. Is there a place nearby, within walking distance that's a bit open but doesn't have other dogs where you could take him maybe once a day or once every other day and either let him run or play fetch, something along those lines using a harness and long lead?

Macy is extremely leash reactive. We assumed she was just aggressive, but when we met one on one with a trainer and her incredibly calm, well behaved dogs, we learned that her response was a fear response.

Yep, exactly.

[Guest Giselle]

Oh geez, I don't remember those kind of details yet, Jen I don't know the specific details of, say, adrenaline's effects on learning and memory as well as I wished right now. My education right now isn't focusing on that, yet. However, broadly speaking, neurotransmitters like adrenaline have powerful long-term effects on an individual's ability to assess the environment, to codify the memory, and to learn from that experience. In the case of excessive arousal or hyperstimulation, most of the material I've read has indicated that this significantly and negatively impacts an animal's view of the situation and will dampen learning of positive associations. An overaroused animal will react worse and worse. I suspect this is why your pup has suddenly started to redirect his frustration onto your other dog. So, it's bad to have a hyperaroused animal in daily situations, and it's something we need to avoid by not crossing the animal's threshold. We also need to avoid it by training impulse control. We also need to avoid it by avoiding difficult situations until we know the dog can handle it. So, that's pretty much what your trainer/behaviorist must figure out: How do we control the environment? How do we control the dog's exposure to the trigger? How do we train him impulse control? How do we implement this on walks and in the rest of his daily life? How much skill is going to be required? Is your dog the type of dog that doesn't require wicked-fast-technique or is he more difficult?

 

If your dog trainer is exceptional and has extensive experience with all of the above (hint: Ask her these exact questions and record what she says), then, you'll be fine with "just a dog trainer". BUT if she cannot answer these questions, then I would suggest looking for a different trainer or behaviorist. That said, I've worked with my fair share of behaviorists who are not skilled at dog training. So, again, ask the above questions. If her answers are satisfying and she has the results to prove it, then, you'll be fine. If not, let us know, and we'll try to locate someone in your area Reactive and aggressive dogs are not easy cases. I personally love them because I live with an exceptionally difficult case, but many trainers/behaviorists do not like taking on aggression cases and, as a result, are not as skilled. So, use your better judgement and find a good professional. It's VERY difficult to implement these training techniques by yourself if you've never done it before. So, best of luck to you in finding a good professional!

[PatricksMom]

So, Leo had another clear accident in the house, followed by hesitation, followed by lots of peeing. So off to the vet we go tomorrow, obviously he's still not feeling well and maybe that's adding to his issues. He finishes the second antibiotic this evening so we'll see what she wants to do.

 

Giselle, thank you for the list of questions, I'll keep those handy.

[NeylasMom]

Oh geez, I don't remember those kind of details yet, Jen

What, you don't know everything dog training and behavior related? For shame.

 

And then she goes on to write a lovely explanation of it anyway.

[Batmom]

Most ghs I've known, the fix was fairly simple and quick as MnMDogs describes. Much, much easier to work with just the one dog at a time until you are seeing good response although it is possible to do two at once if the second dog is really calm and easy.

[philospher77]

I know a really good trainer that moved from California out to North Carolina, although I think she may have moved to Virginia (her husband is an equine vet, hence the moves). I don't know if that is too far for you, but if it is, she may be able to recommend a trainer. And if anyone needs one in that very ill-defined area, I would happily recommend her. Let me know if you need her contact info.

[PatricksMom]

NC is actually several hours away at best, but thank you for offering.

[JJNg]

You've already gotten lots of good advice here. Hopefully you can find a good trainer in your area. Unfortunately, I find that SC is a bit lacking in good, positive-reinforcement based trainers. Not sure if there's anyone closer to you, but Teoti Anderson with Pawsitive Results in Lexington is good.