Intermittent Resource Guarding - How To Correct?

[Guest BiggiesOwner]

Hi! I'm a first time grey owner and have generally been super pleased with our big red boy Biggie (he will be two in February and we've had him for 2 months). He is very friendly to my boyfriend and I, loves meeting/greeting new people and loves belly rubs + cuddles. I have done a ton of research /reading grey talk to work on what I think are Biggie's mild/moderate resource guarding and sleep aggression. He doesn't bite or snap - but will get very growly occasionally - probably a total of 8 times in 2 months.

 

My concern is that I find it hard to work with Biggie on these issues when they only seem to happen infrequently and (of course) in the worst possible places. Biggie seems to growl more at large men who are coming into a room while he is in bed - they won't even be near the bed - just entering the room and Biggie growls.

 

Tonight's incident that prompted this post is that Biggie got a hold of my brother's dog's marrow filled bone (we don't give him anything like this since he isn't ready for it) and was laying in bed chewing it. My Dad walked in the room and Biggie growled at him. I came in after the first growl and had my Dad walk in again - eliciting another growl from Biggie. I gave him a firm no then said "drop it" and gave him a treat and took the bone away with no problems. (Luckily he is learning "drop it" pretty quickly)

 

My question is - how should we be addressing this? I know the prevalent school of thought is don't discourage growling but I really can't have him growling at my Dad when I am visiting my parents. Unfortunately my Dad is very set in his ways re: dog training and he is definitely of the school that a dog that growls at him in his house needs a "butt whipping" . He hasn't disciplined Biggie physically yet - and I am trying to keep him from getting to that point. I've been trying to educate my Dad how greys need time to adjust - but I would really love to have an appropriate and concrete response in place for my Dad/myself/others when Biggie growls.

 

Any advice would be supremely welcome - I love Biggie and want to keep helping him adjust positively without scaring people in the meantime!

[Batmom]

1. Keep your dad and the dog far, far apart.

 

2. Teach "drop it!" using "trade up." Do a search for "trade up" or "trading up" in this forum and you should find plenty of procedures .

 

3. Usually if they grumble a little at something like new person entering the room -- just grumbling, a little unsettled but clearly not terrified -- I'll laugh a little and tell them gently-firmly, "You're OK."

[Guest Wasserbuffel]

One thing to do is work on conditioning him to see large men entering a room as a good thing. That you can work on all the time. Since his reactions are infrequent it's probably something that will be easy for you to work through. Having the type of person he finds unsettling toss him treats when entering the room, in time he'll begin to see large men as a positive thing instead of something to growl at.

 

My grey used to react to faces being near hers. I taught her to give kisses (touch her nose to a cheek), and now she greets faces with pleasure instead of fear.

[Riverhound]

Sounds like you're doing well with Biggie, and with a little more work, he'll get over it.

 

You're going to need to re-train your father, though, and I know from experience how hard that is. My father hasn't had a dog since the 70s, and was very old fashioned in his thinking before hubby and I got Joe. He was appalled at Joe's behavior when they first met, and it was really, really hard for him to keep himself from "teaching that dog a lesson." I made it very clear that this was MY dog, and not to be touched in any unpleasant ways. One of the things that worked was letting Dad see Joe run full out; he learned to respect him as an athlete. After that, it was just time.

 

Dad's visiting us for a week right now, and just had a hound on either side of him on the sofa while he ate dinner. I've heard him brag to his friends about how well behaved they are, how fast they are, blah, blah, blah.

 

Good luck!

 

Edited January 22, 2014 by Riverhound

[a_daerr]

I gave him a firm no then said "drop it" and gave him a treat and took the bone away with no problems. (Luckily he is learning "drop it" pretty quickly)

 

Hi, and welcome! Lots of good advice already given here, but I wanted to comment specifically on this. I wouldn't correct the growling first, because that's probably confusing for him (i.e. "mom is mad, so why is she giving me a treat?") When the growl happens, go right to trading up, and try your best to do it in a happy, light tone.

 

Also, I wanted to add that if your dad entering into a room is enough to elicit growling from Biggie, there is definitely some level of fear there. Fear can cause an otherwise gentle and friendly dog to do things they normally wouldn't. In this type of situation, the only way to reverse his fear is through positive associations. Have your dad toss some treats to Biggie from across the room. No eye contact, no loud voices, nothing that can be interpreted as threatening. Work up to having Biggie take treats from your dad's hand. Have him be the "giver of all things good." If your dad is unwilling or unable to follow this type of protocol and insists on the "firm hand" approach, it's probably best to keep them separated. It's just not worth the risk. I have two very sweet greyhounds (who have also been extensively trained as Canine Good Citizens and Therapy Dogs), and despite their training, I'm 100% sure they would bite if someone tried to hit them.

[Guest grey_dreams]

Lots of good advice. Just wanted to add, when you are visiting your folks, keep the high-value treats and toys of the resident dog picked up so Biggie can't get to them, at least for now until you can do more extensive training. The fact that he dropped such a prized possession as soon as you asked him to is really great, he is really a great dog. It really is ok if Biggie gives some low growls when your father enters the room, at least until he knows him better (although I wouldn't expose my dogs to a person who wanted to "whip their butts"). It is possible, if your father feels this way, that Biggie is picking up on some of that aggression, and that's the reason why he is growling.

 

Hopefully as Biggie gets used to everyone and the routine, things will get much better.

[Guest BiggiesOwner]

Thank you all for the great advice and supportive comments!

 

Riverhound your post & picture really made me feel encouraged - there may be some light at the end of a growly greyhound/old school Dad tunnel (and maybe roaching?...still waiting on that!)

 

I've enlisted my Dad as my "helper" in helping BIggie get over his fear of large men (and my Dad). Now when he approaches Biggie on his bed Dad will toss some yummy treats to him (Thank you a_daerr!). I think if Dad feels like he is doing something productive to alleviate the growling he is a little less frustrated well. It also is the only way I can work on the "large man approaching bed fear" - I'm not a large man.

 

UPDATE - Biggie growled at my Dad again this morning - it is just so odd. He had ran to the door to great my Dad (tail wagging - normal happy Biggie style) as he walked in the house then went to lay down in his bed. Dad left the house again to get a bag and came back in walking towards Biggie's bed - and sure enough another growl/bark from Biggie! Dad waited for me to correct Biggie's growling (firm no) and then I had Dad give him a pig's ear a bit later when he approached the bed and Biggie didn't growl. I know there is no overnight fix - but we will definitely keep working on creating positive associations (thank goodness for low calorie training treats!). Growl =not what I want. No growl = yummy treats.

 

I've also changed the room Biggie and I were sleeping in to one that my Dad never goes into - so trying to reduce Dad's foot traffic near Biggie's main sleeping spot as well.

 

Here's a picture of Biggie when he is happy in his bed...

[Riverhound]

I think changing rooms and involving Dad in training is perfect! It's not odd, at all, that Biggie growled at him shortly after a big happy greeting. He was on his bed, and telling your father "Hey! You freak me out when you're way up there and I'm way down here." Have Dad toss marshmallows or something toward Biggie before he's close enough that Biggie is uncomfortable and grumbly. It'll work out, or you'll decide that Biggie just can't be approached by large men when he's laying down. You can also make your father think that's a good thing -- they like to think their daughters are protected when they aren't around to do the job.

[Sambuca]

http://wildewmn.wordpress.com/2013/10/22/why-growling-is-good/

Show this article to your dad. It may help.

Even when he's not growling, work in the issues. It's actually probably easier to work on when he's not growling. Lots of positive interactions will help. It sounds like you're on the right path.

[NeylasMom]

UPDATE - Biggie growled at my Dad again this morning - it is just so odd. He had ran to the door to great my Dad (tail wagging - normal happy Biggie style) as he walked in the house then went to lay down in his bed. Dad left the house again to get a bag and came back in walking towards Biggie's bed - and sure enough another growl/bark from Biggie! Dad waited for me to correct Biggie's growling (firm no) and then I had Dad give him a pig's ear a bit later when he approached the bed and Biggie didn't growl. I know there is no overnight fix - but we will definitely keep working on creating positive associations (thank goodness for low calorie training treats!). Growl =not what I want. No growl = yummy treats.

Was your dad carrying the bag when he came back in? That may have been what made the difference. The change isn't going to happen overnight. You're going to have to associate dad, and dad in a lot of situations, with something positive. It's really not so important that your dad be the one giving the food, just that he's making the association - dad comes into the room, good things happen. So I would ask you dad to leave the room, then walk back in. When your dad becomes visible, you start feeding Biggie. Do this for a few seconds, making sure Biggie is looking at your dad, then have dad exit the room, at which point you stop feeding. Repeat multiple times - dad present, food appears, dad leaves, food stops. Gradually start having dad come further into the room before he turns around to leave. Dad can also keep treats in his pockets all of the time and anytime he's around Biggie, toss treats to him.

 

I'm not clear, do you live with your parents? If not, I would limit Biggie's trips to your parents to only those times when you are fully present and can be actively working on training until Biggie becomes comfortable with your dad. And either way, if this is your dog, you need to be very clear about what you think is acceptable in terms of how Biggie is treated and trained. Unfortunately, regarding your comment in bold above, if you stick with your dad's method of training, you're likely to end up with a dog who does learn that growling is bad and when he feels trapped, he's going to snap or bite instead and I really really hate to think about how that will go down in a house with a man who believes in correction based training. I was going to suggest printing the article Sambuca linked to if you think your dad would read it, it's a good one.

[Guest BiggiesOwner]

Hi Neyla's Mom - My dad was carrying the bag when he came back in - maybe that made the difference? Dad has walked past Biggie in that bed numerous times with no issue (it's in the living room so pretty high traffic). Biggie is generally a bit leery when we are holding things like bags. I'm going to try the enter and leave the room exercise with my Dad and Biggie this evening and going forward - I'm sure Biggie will love all the extra treats. Thank you for that suggestion!

 

I currently need to stay with my parents about 2 days/nights a week for work related reasons - not the ideal scenario for helping Biggie get adjusted but unfortunately I can't do too much about it right now - I need a job. Luckily the only time Dad and Biggie are in the house together I am there as well. I've printed out the article that you and Sambuca (thank you to Sambuca as well!) recommended to give to my Dad. It does seem very counter intuitive to just "do nothing" when the dog growls - but hopefully this article might help...

 

Do you think maybe if my Dad just said a "Hi Biggie" or something friendly sounding and continued on his way past him when he growls? Right now the house comes to a complete halt whenever Biggie growls at Dad. Including my Dad - he will just stand there and tell me about it/wait for me to take corrective action.

[NeylasMom]

Do you think maybe if my Dad just said a "Hi Biggie" or something friendly sounding and continued on his way past him when he growls? Right now the house comes to a complete halt whenever Biggie growls at Dad. Including my Dad - he will just stand there and tell me about it/wait for me to take corrective action.

Yes, if he can do it in a light hearted way and just basically ignore him otherwise and move on past, that would be much preferable to the correction. It may help your dad to understand why the correction is bad if he can understand why dogs growl. Generally they do it out of fear. For whatever reason, Biggie right now feels threatened by your dad's approach while he's on his bed. The exercise I gave you is a way to change his feelings about that so that he starts to anticipate good things when your dad comes into the room. However, if in the meantime, when dad comes into the room and he growls, you correct him, you've now added to his anxiety over the situation by adding something negative (your correction). You have basically just reassured Biggie that indeed he has a reason to worry when dad comes in the room and he's on his bed because when he does, bad stuff happens - the mood changes, everyone becomes very concerned, and then mom scolds me.

 

It sounds like you're in a tough situation and I'm guessing that you're still relatively young so standing up to your dad, especially when your parents are helping you out is difficult. That doesn't change the fact that you, and only you took on the responsibility for this dog and you need to advocate for what's best for him. Hopefully something we've shared here, between the feedback or the article will help you bring your dad around.

[Guest BiggiesOwner]

Just wanted to update and thank everyone for the great advice again! I've visited my parents house a few times since my original post and my dad and brother have been really great about working on Biggie's fear with me. I explained to them this is the one bit of training that I can't do by myself so I needed their help.

 

They are carrying treats with them all the time to give to Biggie when they are around and I have them give him pig's ears/feed him meals while we're in the house as well. They also will toss him a treat or two when they approach him on his bed - however now I think Biggie views them as walking treat dispensers - sometimes when they enter the room now he just pops right out of bed to look for his treat! I'm not complaining - I'd rather Biggie view them as treat dispensers instead of scary things! We've also moved his "downstairs bed" to a bit more of a secluded spot - so Dad and my brother only really go near his bed to work on desensitizing now.

 

Two visits without any growling (knock wood) - so I'm hoping Biggie is starting to get used to them a bit more now. Dad's also starting to like Biggie a little - Biggie's mastery of sit, stay, lay, and shake in just a couple of months has really impressed him!

[NeylasMom]

however now I think Biggie views them as walking treat dispensers - sometimes when they enter the room now he just pops right out of bed to look for his treat! I'm not complaining - I'd rather Biggie view them as treat dispensers instead of scary things!

Yes! This is exactly what you DO want!! It means that Biggie has made the association that them appearing means good things are coming. That positive association is replacing the fear he felt previously. Great job. Keep up the good work and kudos to your dad for getting on board. I hope that the change in Biggie's behavior has shown him that reward based training is really effective and will help him be more open to changing his thinking in other areas of training moving forward.

 

ETA: This update made my morning. Really, great job!

Edited February 11, 2014 by NeylasMom

[Brandiandwe]

Further to the walking treat dispenser issue, I'm guessing this doesn't mean the dad and brother need to always carry treats into the future? That eventually they will be able to treat Biggie every so often, so he never knows when it will be but will continue to expect it and maintain the positive association? Otherwise, yay Biiggie!

[a_daerr]

Go Biggie! I love seeing updates like this.

[Guest Giselle]

Further to the walking treat dispenser issue, I'm guessing this doesn't mean the dad and brother need to always carry treats into the future? That eventually they will be able to treat Biggie every so often, so he never knows when it will be but will continue to expect it and maintain the positive association? Otherwise, yay Biiggie!

Yes, that is correct. Once the association has been learned, we recommend that folks switch to a random "gamblers" style of reinforcement. Instead of getting a treat every single time Dad walks by, only reward every 2nd time... Or maybe every 3rd time... Or maybe once a day or 10 times a day. Or, heck, maybe it's been a long time, and you only do it once a week. Random and intermittent reinforcement works best to keep up the association, so, yes, you can reward randomly and intermittently as long as he definitely views them positively now.

[Riverhound]

I'm so glad to see this!

[Guest BiggiesOwner]

Well I feel like I spoke to soon now about Biggie's great progress..... Just had a series of panicked texts from the dog walker I use at while at my parent's house - Biggie refused to leave his crate for her and had to be lured out with treats (sometimes he doesn't want to leave his crate so that is totally weird). When he finally came out of the crate with treats as a lure he growled at her every time she tried to put the leash on him/approached him (showing a lot of teeth the last time she tried). The poor girl finally gave up and just left without walking him - she somehow was able to get him back in the crate at least....

 

She has walked him at least 10 times previously with no incidents at all - including yesterday! I really don't understand why he would just start growling at her out of the blue. Biggie has always loved seeing her when she comes in the house and gives her a big hello.

 

I am just feeling so worried and concerned right now. I can't understand why Biggie would act like that to someone he knows/seemed to like and I'm worried about having a dog walker come into walk him now. Just feeling so stressed.

[Brandiandwe]

Before panicking, maybe there's another reason. Maybe Biggie didn't want to go out, knew how cold it was, or was asleep and startled awake. Maybe he doesn't like your dog walker. Maybe something frightened him earlier in the day.

 

I'd take him off to the vet to rule out anything medical, see how he is when you get home to ought (obviously in reverse order) and take it from there.

 

And, believe me, these dogs know how to scare us. Hermon bit my husband just after we got him. Since then, Hermon has become DHs dog and I'm really just the staff who feeds and walks. Just before Christmas, Brandi ripped Paige up, just missing the jugular, over a lizard. I spent several hours contemplating having Brandi put down or rehomed. Fortunately I spoke to my adoption group (you also need to call them to get some advice) and we've had no problems since.

 

Deep breaths.

[Guest Wasserbuffel]

 

 

I am just feeling so worried and concerned right now. I can't understand why Biggie would act like that to someone he knows/seemed to like and I'm worried about having a dog walker come into walk him now. Just feeling so stressed.

 

I agree with Brandi. It may just be that he really didn't want to go. About eight months after I got my grey she came at me snarling and snapping one night when I tried to get her off the couch to go to bed. We had a really good relationship and bond at that point, but she really didn't want to go outside to potty, she was already quite comfortable for the night, thankyouverymuch. She was just pushing boundaries, and we worked through it with training over the next few weeks.

 

It might be that he doesn't need the mid-day walk, and this is his way of saying he'd rather just sleep. Now, in my case the dog HAD to learn that going out before bed was not optional for her. She didn't know how to ask to be let out in the middle of the night, and would mess in her crate. Now, though, it's not important anymore. I let her choose to go for a last turnout or straight to bed, because if she ends up needing to potty in the night she will wake me.

[NeylasMom]

At this point I think it would be a good idea to find a good trainer or behaviorist that can help you through these issues. It's very difficult to say what's going on since we're not there to observe. I don't personally think what you're seeing is "normal" and just something to hope resolves with time. IMO there's a decent risk of the behavior escalating either because he's provoked or because it's self-reinforcing (he growls enough, he gets left alone in his crate). A good trainer or behaviorist with an understanding of how dogs learn and communicate (based in modern science) and who uses current positive/reward-based methods can help you develop a plan for helping Biggie adjust, or possibly (I'm not encouraging this but do think it needs to be on the list of things you consider) help you determine if there might be another dog who would be a better fit for you than Biggie.

 

In the meantime, I would either go without the dog walker, or I would instruct the walker to only take Biggie out if he comes out of his crate willingly. If he does, treats for doing so, then additional treats every step of the way - as she clips the leash on, for going outside, as she unclips the leash, and for going back in his crate. In other words, every bit of interaction with the walker results in good things happening. If you're going to continue with the walker, I might suggest doing this a couple of times with you present first so that you can end things if Biggie looks uncomfortable at all.

[Guest BiggiesOwner]

Thank you all for the advice -it's great to have a resource like this site to vent to. I spoke to my adoption group yesterday as well and they advised that sometimes as the dog gets more comfortable they can get "pushy and bossy" with people. They said to let him know that "bossy growling" isn't okay verbally. I think maybe that is the case - but at the same time it is a lot to ask of people to deal with a scary growling and snarling 83lb dog. Biggie doesn't act like this with me at all - he is so well behaved and docile for me now.

 

I almost wish that he was growling at myself or my bf instead - that is something we could work on ourselves. It's hard to expect people to act as guinea pigs with a dog that is getting a scary reputation... I don't think I can feel comfortable leaving him alone with others at this point in time after what happened yesterday. I don't believe he would bite someone - but telling my family "well he hasn't bit anyone yet so I don't think he will" isn't exactly comforting. It would almost be easier if he was "bad" more often - but he is such a sweet heart 95% of the time - even with new people.

 

I know that there is a lot of adjustment time with a new grey and anticipated that and knew I'd need to work on some issues - but I feel like after 3 months he should not be acting that aggressive to someone who has been part of his routine and who he knows. I'm torn between wanting to give him more time/training and worrying that waiting for things to improve might result in a bad incident for another person. I don't want to give up on Biggie (I'm very attached to him and he's wonderful with me now) - but I'm worried maybe I'm not providing the best setting for him. I'm going to look into getting a trainer and will be talking to my adoption group a bit more (when I'm able to talk w/o getting emotional on the phone) as well.

[Brandiandwe]

Three months is about the time my three started testing the boundaries. But do get a trainer in and 'listen' to NeylasMom. And try not to assume the worst!

[Guest Giselle]

Adoption group representatives may have lots of dog owning experience, but a dog owner does not have the specialized skills or academic background that a trained behaviorist has. Sometimes, adoption group reps give shockingly misinformed advice.

 

I personally think it's a cop-out to say that a dog is "being pushy or bossy". That's placing the blame on the dog when, in fact, animal behavior professionals unanimously agree that animal bites are 99.999% human error and 0.001% the animal acting erractically. I think you will do well to find a trained professional to help with Biggie's issues. There's a lot of communication going on between dog and humans, but not all of it is getting read correctly.