Bathroom Issues - Help!

[greydad92]

Hi All,

 

Help. I am at my wits end. I got Spock from a rescue on November 3rd of 2013. I worked slowly with him on away training for a week and he did great. I worked him up to 9 hours a day over a 2 - 3 week period. At first I crated him in my bedroom, but he didn't take well to that, clawing and biting at the crate to get out. I ended up baby gating him in my bedroom and he did great, no pee, no poop inside. He did so well after a month or so, I gave him run of my small ranch-style house. For a couple weeks he did great. Then he started to poop in my living room, but only when I wasn't around. I could never catch him doing it. I caught him peeing one time in my dining room and gave him a very firm "no". When he goes to the bathroom outside I praise the heck out of him. So I went back to baby gating him in my bedroom. Last week he pooped once in the bedroom. This morning I took him out for his 5 am short walk which he pooped and peed, but he didn't on our 8 am "long" walk before I went to work. When I came home I discovered pee and poop on my bedroom floor. That's only part of it. When we go for walks we often walk for 1/2 hour before he goes to the bathroom, this is on plane old green grass. It's like he constantly looks for a place to go to the bathroom and it takes him a really long time to eventually go. For example, when I got home from work today I took him out for a 1/2 hour to 45 minute walk before he peed and pooped. Probably because he went inside I guess. It's almost like he's learned to go to the bathroom inside, thinks it's ok and only goes to the bathroom outside when he feels like it. I'm so confused. Should I crate him? I can't afford doggie day care or someone to come take him for a walk at lunchtime every day. I work 45 minutes from home so it's not possible to drive home every day to let him out at lunchtime. Again, for the first month he did great. And no, I can't get a second dog. One is enough for right now.

 

I'm really trying hard with this guy and it appears we've come to a rather large bump in the road. I'm looking for good positive suggestions and feedback. Perhaps others have had my experience?

 

Thanks for listening.

Edited January 14, 2014 by aryon92

[Batmom]

Wouldn't crate him if he was fussing and trying to get out.

 

Any chance you could afford a mid-day dog-walker over the short term? Maybe there is someone in your adoption group that you could trade favors with? That could help a good bit. Most dogs CAN wait for a regular workday like yours, but sometimes in can take awhile to work up to that.

[Hubcitypam]

Is there a way to baby gate him in the kitchen in the daytime? Most of my bedrooms have been kind of dark and the kitchens sunnier. Cleanup would also be easier. Is there an older teen or stay at home neighbor that could let him out for you? In Illinois I paid the high school student upstairs $20 a week to walk my yorkie. Here pre dog door (which I'll never live without again) I paid my stay at home neighbor $15 a week to come and let them out the 4 days that I worked.

[Guest grey_dreams]

He probably just can't wait that long, at least not yet. It is possible that during the first month he was a bit shut down, and then the digestive tract also shuts down somewhat, so he didn't have accidents in the beginning.

 

What time do you feed breakfast, and what time do you leave for the day? It might be good to give him breakfast about 2 hours before you leave, or as early as possible (can you get up really early and then go back to sleep?), and plan to do at least one long walk just before leaving. Then most of the breakfast will already be digested, and he should be able to empty out, so that he might be able to wait the 9 hours while you are gone.

 

Clean the areas with an enzymatic cleaner to remove any residual scent.

 

Zariel also has a whole routine and has to find the perfect spot, so I know that sometimes it can be frustrating when you have to leave but he's still looking. That's why it may be best to manage the times of eating and walking. With time, as you learn his routines and he learns yours, it will get better.

[JJNg]

Can you post a full summary of your typical schedule including what time you get up, when he is walked, when he eats, when you leave and return, etc? Also include when the accidents have been happening. Sometimes it's just a matter of adjusting the schedule so that the timing of when he needs to go matches when you're home to walk him.

[greydad92]

Is there a way to baby gate him in the kitchen in the daytime? Most of my bedrooms have been kind of dark and the kitchens sunnier. Cleanup would also be easier. Is there an older teen or stay at home neighbor that could let him out for you? In Illinois I paid the high school student upstairs $20 a week to walk my yorkie. Here pre dog door (which I'll never live without again) I paid my stay at home neighbor $15 a week to come and let them out the 4 days that I worked.

 

All great suggestions. The way my house is laid out there is really no way to baby gate him in the kitchen unfortunately. I could see if someone in the neighborhood could help out. I really don't know any stay at home Mom's or high school kids.

He probably just can't wait that long, at least not yet. It is possible that during the first month he was a bit shut down, and then the digestive tract also shuts down somewhat, so he didn't have accidents in the beginning.

 

What time do you feed breakfast, and what time do you leave for the day? It might be good to give him breakfast about 2 hours before you leave, or as early as possible (can you get up really early and then go back to sleep?), and plan to do at least one long walk just before leaving. Then most of the breakfast will already be digested, and he should be able to empty out, so that he might be able to wait the 9 hours while you are gone.

 

Clean the areas with an enzymatic cleaner to remove any residual scent.

 

Zariel also has a whole routine and has to find the perfect spot, so I know that sometimes it can be frustrating when you have to leave but he's still looking. That's why it may be best to manage the times of eating and walking. With time, as you learn his routines and he learns yours, it will get better.

 

I take him out for his quick walk at 5 am, feed him around 5:30 am, take him for his longer walk around 7:45 am and leave for work around 8:30 am.

Mr. Spock is very routine oriented.

[Guest GreyHawk]

Sorry...

 

I realise you want positive but I just can't get past the 'being left for 9 hours a day '.

 

This is barely 2 months in and you're demanding that he hold himself in for 9 hours.

 

Let's start a new training regime.

 

Starting now YOU don't go to the bathroom for 9 hours ...

Let's see how long it takes YOUR body to adapt to that regime.

 

How many times do I have to say it?

 

They are not robots: you cannot just dial in a behaviour and expect it to work

straight off.

[greydad92]

Sorry...

 

I realise you want positive but I just can't get past the 'being left for 9 hours a day '.

 

This is barely 2 months in and you're demanding that he hold himself in for 9 hours.

 

Let's start a new training regime.

 

Starting now YOU don't go to the bathroom for 9 hours ...

Let's see how long it takes YOUR body to adapt to that regime.

 

How many times do I have to say it?

 

They are not robots: you cannot just dial in a behaviour and expect it to work

straight off.

 

I completely understand they are not robots. I had two dogs before Spock and they did fine with being left alone for that amount of time with no peeing or pooping in the house. If you read my original post correctly I said that worked him up to 9 hours. The first week I adopted I took the week off to do alone training with him leaving him alone one hour the first day, two hours the second day, three hours the third day, etc. The next week I came home at lunch time everyday to get him used to the second week. So I didn't start him off leaving him alone 9 hours a day.

Edited January 14, 2014 by aryon92

[Guest Liz_in_PA]

Not helpful, Greyhawk.

 

There are some very large gates if it comes to that. How about an expen for the kitchen.

You say you feed breakfast. What proportion of food morning versus night? Could you feed less in the morning? Many eat only one time a day.

I missed that you got Mr Spock. How lovely.

[Brandiandwe]

My dogs sleep all day when I'm at work. And, in fact, my girls have held it for 16 hours because they refused to go out for DH and waited for me. So nine hours isn't necessarily unrealistic.

 

I'd try for a longer walk to get him nice and tired and empty before leaving. I'd also check for a UTI and make sure the food agrees with him. Hang in there.

[boopieface]

At most of the kennels, they turn the dogs out right after they eat. Maybe a real short walk closer to breakfast? Then the longer one a little later? Good luck! He's a handsome boy

[a_daerr]

I'd go back to Housetraining 101. Since crating seems to have been counterproductive and stressful in the past, I'd use baby-gates and/or x-pens to decrease his level of space. The premise behind crating and confinement is that the dog learns to "hold it," otherwise, he makes a mess of his den. But if a dog learns he can go to the bathroom inside and still has enough enough space to walk away from it, that's when it becomes a really hard habit to break. I'd limit him to one room of the house, preferably a kitchen or somewhere with flooring that's easy to clean if he has an accident. If you're still finding piles of poop, make the space a little smaller. But, when he starts to do well, gradually give him more freedom. A dog isn't considered officially "housebroken" until they've gone 60 days without an accident, so try not to give him too much freedom too soon. The other part of this regimen is that there has to be a very strict feeding, exercising, and elimination schedule. No free feeding- bowl goes up in 15 minutes if he doesn't eat. Make sure he gets sufficient exercise prior to you leaving for the day.

 

I'd also want to pinpoint exactly when he is having accidents to make sure his housebreaking issues aren't connected to separation anxiety. A good way to do this is to set up a laptop/webcam and create a UStream account. If he's having accidents shortly after you leave, it could be SA-related. If it's in the middle of the day or close to when you get home, then you know it's just a matter of timing and adjusting.

 

This is an excellent resource on housebreaking. It's a short and reads almost like a pamphlet, but it's very thorough.

Edited January 14, 2014 by a_daerr

[greydad92]

Not helpful, Greyhawk.

 

There are some very large gates if it comes to that. How about an expen for the kitchen.

You say you feed breakfast. What proportion of food morning versus night? Could you feed less in the morning? Many eat only one time a day.

I missed that you got Mr Spock. How lovely.

 

Hello

 

hmm, expen is a good suggestion.

 

Food: kibble - Purina Pro Plan Sensitive Skin & Stomach

Breakfast: 5:30am - 2 & 1/2 - 3 cups of kibble, 1 teaspoon of fish oil & a handful of organic green beans, cooked & mashed.

Dinner: Usually around 6:30 - 7pm. 2 & 1/2 - 3 cups of kibble, 1 heaping tablespoon wet food (Purina Pro Plan Sensative Skin & Stomach), 1 teaspoon of fish oil & a handful of organic green beans, cooked & mashed.

My dogs sleep all day when I'm at work. And, in fact, my girls have held it for 16 hours because they refused to go out for DH and waited for me. So nine hours isn't necessarily unrealistic.

 

I'd try for a longer walk to get him nice and tired and empty before leaving. I'd also check for a UTI and make sure the food agrees with him. Hang in there.

 

Thank you for your suggestions and positive reinforcement. Longer walk definitely. This morning we went for 2 miles. What does UTI stand for?

[Batmom]

Too much food . Try cutting that @ in half -- 1.5-2 cups morning, 1.5-2 cups evening, and see if he maintains weight on that lesser quantity. I would also leave off the fish oil for now as *most* dogs won't need it with the food you're using.

[Batmom]

ETA: That could be 90-99% of the problem right there.

[Feisty49]

As Batmom said, it seems like a lot of food. The more food in, the more poo out. :-) How much does he weigh? My girl weighs 64 pounds and gets 3 cups of food a day split between breakfast and supper plus a few treats during the day.

 

Also, I'd consider feeding him later in the morning, closer to the time you take your long walk before going to work. Annie has to pee and often poo first thing in the morning, but she always has to poo when we take our first walk of the day about 30 minutes after she eats.

 

Good luck!!

[greydad92]

I'd go back to Housetraining 101. Since crating seems to have been counterproductive and stressful in the past, I'd use baby-gates and/or x-pens to decrease his level of space. The premise behind crating and confinement is that the dog learns to "hold it," otherwise, he makes a mess of his den. But if a dog learns he can go to the bathroom inside and still has enough enough space to walk away from it, that's when it becomes a really hard habit to break. I'd limit him to one room of the house, preferably a kitchen or somewhere with flooring that's easy to clean if he has an accident. If you're still finding piles of poop, make the space a little smaller. But, when he starts to do well, gradually give him more freedom. A dog isn't considered officially "housebroken" until they've gone 60 days without an accident, so try not to give him too much freedom too soon. The other part of this regimen is that there has to be a very strict feeding, exercising, and elimination schedule. No free feeding- bowl goes up in 15 minutes if he doesn't eat. Make sure he gets sufficient exercise prior to you leaving for the day.

 

I'd also want to pinpoint exactly when he is having accidents to make sure his housebreaking issues aren't connected to separation anxiety. A good way to do this is to set up a laptop/webcam and create a UStream account. If he's having accidents shortly after you leave, it could be SA-related. If it's in the middle of the day or close to when you get home, then you know it's just a matter of timing and adjusting.

 

This is an excellent resource on housebreaking. It's a short and reads almost like a pamphlet, but it's very thorough.

 

wow, thanks for all the info.

[greydad92]

Too much food . Try cutting that @ in half -- 1.5-2 cups morning, 1.5-2 cups evening, and see if he maintains weight on that lesser quantity. I would also leave off the fish oil for now as *most* dogs won't need it with the food you're using.

 

Ah, I knew someone would mention that. When I got him in November he was on the thin side, rear leg shoulder bones showing (don't know the technical term). I was feeding him 1 & 1/2 to 2 cups of kibble per feeding, but upped it to 2 & 1/2 - 3 cups. He seems to have gained the weight, so perhaps I should back off quanity. I thought it was a lot of food to be giving him.

Will leave out the fish oil as well.....I thought that too.

As Batmom said, it seems like a lot of food. The more food in, the more poo out. :-) How much does he weigh? My girl weighs 64 pounds and gets 3 cups of food a day split between breakfast and supper plus a few treats during the day.

 

Also, I'd consider feeding him later in the morning, closer to the time you take your long walk before going to work. Annie has to pee and often poo first thing in the morning, but she always has to poo when we take our first walk of the day about 30 minutes after she eats.

 

Good luck!!

 

I honestly don't know how much he weighs. Zero was 71 lbs and Spock is bigger than Zero. I would guess 78 lbs. Thanks for the suggestions

[lothianjavert]

Rook is 79 pounds and eats about 3.5 cups per day of kibble and I toss in a fish oil cap with each meal. (1.5 cups at each meal and the last 1/2 cup is split between two kongs when I leave for work- the kongs are also topped with peanut butter to keep the kibble in)

[a_daerr]

It does sound like a lot of food, but not out of the realm of possibilities. My Truman is 82 pounds and eats between 2.5-3 cups of kibble at each meal with various supplements and mix-ins. He's also two-years-old and pretty active, so I think it depends on the individual dog.

[Hubcitypam]

I agree that the fish oil on top of the salmon based food might be overload and that is a LOT of kibble. Even my 80+ guys got 2 cups twice a day.

In response to Greyhawk's post -

Dogs are not robots, but they are also not people. People drink for many reasons other than being thirsty. A couple of cups of coffee and a glass of juice at breakfast, a soft drink at morning and afternoon breaks, iced tea at lunch, a beer or two at happy hour, a cup of tea at bedtime...all add up to far more fluids than dogs drink. They only drink when they are thirsty.

I have a dog door and mine, of their own free will often go 12 hours. I am especially aware of this now that Poodle can no longer get up and off the bed. We go to bed at 11, I read for a while and we get up around 10. Once he woke me because he was thirsty, but he's never awakened me to go potty.

[Batmom]

Could be that when you got him, he DID need to gain some and was using more energy ... so the quantity was right at that time ... and now he has reached a better weight and settled, so the quantity is more than he needs and results in extra poop.

 

I would keep an eye on his weight -- maybe weigh him now and then @ 10-14 days after you change quantity. Don't want to shortchange him in any way .

[greydad92]

Just got home from work and found another poop in the bedroom

[Batmom]

Try squeaking the food down and giving that 2-3 days -- maybe 1.5 Cups morning and 2 Cups evening. If he's been getting more than needed, it can take a couple days for the extra to work its way through ......

[Guest DogNewbie]

What does UTI stand for?

 

UTI stands for Uriniary Tract Infection

 

Good luck with Mr. Spock! Hang in there! If it makes you feel better, Wiley took a HUGE poop on my purse once and on my BF's snow pants