Pondering Another Rudy Issue

[Guest k9soul]

I think I basically know the issue and how to address it, but it helps to get my thoughts out in a place where many people understand or have dealt with similar issues.

 

Rudy seems to have a sensitivity about being touched on the back of the neck, near the base or at his shoulder area. The odd thing about it is he seems fine with it if the person is standing up, but uneasy about it if the person is sitting down and thus has to reach the hand over him a bit rather than just reaching down. I mean, that makes sense as reaching over a dog is more threatening, but I am a bit surprised that he seems pretty relaxed if the person is standing and reaches down and pets/scratches him there. When he meets people (which he is always ecstatic to do) and they reach down and pet and scratch him, a part of me seizes up in anxiety when they scratch the back of his neck and yet he just seems puppyish and purely relaxed about it, no problem at all. I guess in those cases his mind is just in a happy place, the same as when receiving treats can relax a dog around something they might normally be anxious about.

 

What I sense from him and gather from his facial and body language is that he's fine with being touched/rubbed just about anywhere on his body, though his ears seem unusually sensitive so I don't rub them like I do my other dogs and I warn others the same. They can be petted and stroked but not taken between the fingers and rubbed. One time he gave a startling snarl when I did that (before I realized) and another time he yelped when his ear was flipped back and I absently reached out to flip it forward again. However, when I'm seated and he's more at eye level with me, I feel he's more nervous with being touched along his back, and what he wants most is his chest/tummy, chin and underside of his neck rubbed, as well as head strokes.

 

So this morning I was lying in bed trying to convince myself to leave the warm covers and Rudy came up as he often does to get some petting and babying. I was gently scratching along the sides of his neck, petting his head, rubbing his face a bit as he enjoys, and let my hand wander to the back of his neck and just briefly give a couple strokes there. I did not feel a stiffening so I thought "good" to myself and moved back to the side but then after a moment he growled. It was a soft growl, his "I'm really uneasy" growl. So obviously there WAS some tension caused by rubbing the back of his neck. I stopped petting him, and he stood there looking at me the way he does when he's hoping for more pets and I admit I just felt a bit disheartened. I didn't say anything but after a moment I turned away from him and he went to lie down.

 

The difficult thing about Rudy is he seems like such a confident, outgoing dog and just does not really display obvious signs of insecurity, and yet I think deep-seated insecurity is what causes these issues, the same as when he wants to lie down close to me and yet growl if anything touches him once he's relaxed.

 

Obviously the back of the neck is a vulnerable area for dogs, but I'm not sure if it's just something within him or if experience has caused him a deeper insecurity about it. For one, I was told by adoption rep that in Rudy's first home he was an only dog and crated during the day and that he freaked out about being crated there. So if that is true, was he forced in the crate by someone pulling his collar? Could that have exacerbated sensitivity about the back of his neck? His foster home before he came to live with me said that he got snappy one time when they were trying to get him to go outside while it was raining and took him by the collar. Grabbing him by the collar is something I've never done and never intend to do.

 

Counter conditioning seems the obvious key again on this. He's just been a more complex puzzle of a dog than I've dealt with before. I feel like we already really have a strong bond though, and I'm sure we both will only continue growing together. I appreciate being able to air out my thoughts here about his quirks.

[NeylasMom]

Between what you're describing with his ears and his neck, I would want to be really really certain that there isn't a medical issue going on before I started counter-conditioning. Any sort of ear issue could I suspect cause discomfort that might radiate down into his neck and vice versa. I'm not sure how long you've had Rudy, but that's something I would check out first.

 

Otherwise, don't overthink. It's not about deep seated insecurities, he just for whatever reason doesn't enjoy being petted in that place in that manner. If he was yanked around by his collar in the past, that could very well explain it (and I probably would do counter-conditioning for a collar grab just in case you ever do *need* to do it for his own safety).

 

Otherwise, I think you know the drill on how to counter-condition, which is exactly what I'd do, for his protection if nothing else because you can't always control what other people do.

 

There's also a neat exercise that Suzanne Clothier designed, it's part of her treat and retreat program for fearful dogs that might help with the particular issue of him disliking people reaching over his head. I'm not sure if I can describe it adequately via the written word but the gist is that you give him the choice about putting himself in the position to get the treat and then he can back off. So you would hold a treat in one hand closer to your body and then hold your other hand out and up so that if he reaches in for the treat your hand will be over (but not touching) his head. He's allowed to grab the treat and immediately move away. You could practice doing this with other people, the more the better.

[Guest k9soul]

I don't think medical issue. He's coming up on his 1 year gotcha with me and his foster before me said he reacted when ears were rubbed too hard. I think he just has very sensitive ears. He's had them examined at the vet when he had his other issue and he does not scratch, shake his head, or show any signs. I also think if it was a pain issue he would not be relaxed about it when a person is standing and reaching down to scratch/pet him on the back of the neck versus when they are seated and reaching over a bit more.

 

But I'm sure I overthink things, I always have. I have this need to understand the root of things, but it does help me at times to just write things out.

 

I think it's just that at times I think we're good, I've got things figured out or we seem to have moved to a new level of trust and then he suddenly reacts to something and it takes me aback.

[NeylasMom]

But I'm sure I overthink things, I always have. I have this need to understand the root of things, but it does help me at times to just write things out.

 

I think it's just that at times I think we're good, I've got things figured out or we seem to have moved to a new level of trust and then he suddenly reacts to something and it takes me aback.

I am the QUEEN of overthinking/overanalyzing and I totally understand your need to understand the root of things. This is why at some point I will probably pay too much money for a totally useless DNA test that won't actually tell me what breeds of dog Skye is.

 

And I get the up and down too. Zuri still growls at me occasionally over a space thing. Who knows why, that particular day he was just a little extra on edge or I managed to do something he actually found uncomfortable. I don't sweat it. I know he'd never escalate it and he's come so far, I just take it in stride and ramp up the CC again if I feel it's necessary. With other people he doesn't know well though, I watch him like a hawk, and I always will, just to make sure he doesn't get uncomfortable.

[greysmom]

Yes, you could be right. Or you could not be. You'll likely never know, so it's probably best, as Jen suggested, to not overthink his reactions too much. Sometimes there just isn't any7 recognizable "cause" for behaviors - it's simply the personality and likes/dislikes of that particular dog.

 

You had a good opportunity this morning when you were petting him in bed. He became uncomfortable, told you about it, and you stopped, but he obviously wanted you to continue. I would have started to pet him again in a manner he I knew he liked, and then, every once in a while, slide some touches over the spot(s) he's less comfortable with. Not enough to cause him to become tense, but enough to show him he can get pets and attention in a positive manner even though *those* spots also get attention.

 

When Whiskey came to live with us in Dec of 2011, he was incredibly space sensitive. He wanted to lay on the bed with us, and be close to us, and wanted to be petted. But he did not like it on certain parts of his body - his feet particularly, but also along his back and hindquarters. And he didn't like to be pressed on, like snuggling in bed, or hugging. Like Rudy, he was completely fine if he was standing up, but laying down anywhere energized his space issues. First, we kept him off the bed for many months - it really wasn't safe, so he wasn't allowed. Second, we always made sure he was awake and aware before we approached him when he was laying down, even if we were just passing by him and not planning to pet him.

 

Third, we began to condition him to accepting pets and attention while he was laying down - short, short lengths of petting - maybe on one or two strokes - then we'd leave him alone. For a month or two. The a bit more, and we'd start to also touch his feet and butt - just for a second. We increased the time he was experiencing "good" pets gradually (good petting means no growling or tenseness. As soon as he showed signs of becoming uncomfortable, we would stop, but preferrably we would stop before he got to that point). Finally, now just in the last few months, he has begun to put *himself* in positions on the bed and when laying down so he can get pets and attention in situations where he would have growled/snapped before. It's taken more than two years.

 

It takes time. Sometimes lots of time. And sometimes they don't come around. Hopefully, Rudy will be like Whiskey and eventually his space issues will become less and less. Whiskey now sleeps with my husband quite frequently with no issues at all. Sometimes, he does still growl, or get up and move. That's his choice and we respect his need for more space when he needs it. We can usually now touch him all over when he's laying down as easily as when he's standing up. He still doesn't like to be crowded much, but I'm confident that will resolve, too.

Edited January 8, 2014 by greysmom

[a_daerr]

Between what you're describing with his ears and his neck, I would want to be really really certain that there isn't a medical issue going on before I started counter-conditioning.

 

I would definitely give this some more thought. I wonder if he has a neck/disc/spinal/LS issue that is connected to his limping?

 

If you're sure it's not medical, there are some counter conditioning exercises you can try, as Jen mentioned above. Though, some dogs just have sensitive spots that they don't like touched (ears are a big one). Others are just a bit neurotic about stuff like that. My Truman is okay if you pet his belly or sides (if your hand is actually moving). But he immediately growls if the petting stops and you try to rest your hand there. Why? Absolutely no idea! It makes no sense to me! I've tried lots of positive CC with him, but for whatever reason, certain movements still make him uncomfortable. I've kind of given up and learned to live with it. I trust that his growling won't escalate (with me or anybody else), but I don't make a habit of pushing the issue. You know Rudy best, so you're be the best person to decide how far to push his comfort level. Don't feel like you're a failure, though, if he never learns to like being pet in certain spots.

[Guest k9soul]

You had a good opportunity this morning when you were petting him in bed. He became uncomfortable, told you about it, and you stopped, but he obviously wanted you to continue. I would have started to pet him again in a manner he I knew he liked, and then, every once in a while, slide some touches over the spot(s) he's less comfortable with. Not enough to cause him to become tense, but enough to show him he can get pets and attention in a positive manner even though *those* spots also get attention.

 

 

You know I kind of thought about this afterwards. When he was looking at me and obviously wanted more attention, I was internally debating, but at that point I was feeling a little tense and just felt it would be best to discontinue for that moment rather than risk passing that tension on to him and having another negative interaction. However, after I relaxed for a few minutes, I called him back over and he came back and he got a few more pets then. I did not touch that area again though until I stood up. Once I'm standing he's fine with being touched there.

 

I really appreciate your post and your thoughts. I think it's sometimes a bit therapeutic for me to just put my thoughts out there because then it seems my mind is able to let it go more once I've aired it out and stop going in circles trying to analyze the situation.

 

As an aside, I feel fairly confident by this point that Rudy would not bite me (unless perhaps under some extreme circumstance), so I'm not really worried about him biting me. I just want to continue to develop mutual trust between us.

Edited January 8, 2014 by k9soul

[NeylasMom]

Lots of great advice from Chris (greysmom) as well. The only thing I will add, and I apologize as I'm sure I sound like I'm beating a dead horse at this point is that you can speed up the process by pairing the touch with really high value treats. Rather than learning to tolerate it, the dog will actually begin to enjoy it as it becomes associated with something he already finds very rewarding.

[Sambuca]

Are you blocking his vision with your arm when you pet him while you're reaching over him? Are you putting more weight on the area, like the weight of your hand/arm? I agree a med check is always good. Just because he's always done it, doesn't mean there's not a problem.

[Guest k9soul]

He's really had every evaluation possible within the past 2 months. He definitely has a distinctive response if something hurts him. The circumstances seem very specific, and though it's really hard to convey everything with intricate and exact details about his personality, I am very confident it is not a pain response.

 

Anyway, I put absolutely no weight into the touch, it was a gentle stroke over the top of his hair with my fingertips that did not even touch his skin. I can touch him and even put pressure there with no reaction from him when I am standing. He seems fully relaxed and with no issue being touched there if I am standing up and he is standing up. With more thought I have wondered if he's more sensitive because my face is closer to his when I am lying down or sitting and petting him. If the touch there when we are in closer more intimate proximity sometimes makes him uneasy.

 

One last observation is at the Fun Runs with other hounds he gets along well with the other hounds, but intensely dislikes it if any of them lay their head over his back; anywhere over his back. I caught a bit of this on video last summer, at the end where it clips off you can see a person petting him on the back of the neck, and again he's completely fine and comfortable with that when people are standing. So again I wonder some about face/body proximity.

 

[Acadianarose]

Payton is quickly learning to tolerate much more petting due to the treats. We keep a bowl of treats on the mantle above his bed and give him one or two when we walk by. Now I will give him a couple of pets while he is lying down and give him a couple of treats. He is getting much more comfortable, but he is still not ready for much more than a few pets.

 

He much prefers the side his neck to be rubbed, and not his back, especially between his shoulder blades (or whatever that area is called on a dog). At times, he will flinch if I touch his upper legs. However he loves his butt just above the base of his tail be scratched (weirdo). Lol.

 

I still muzzle him in the car with Lexi. He will lay on her lap so remind her not to rub his back, just his neck.

 

He can only tolerate a few moments of petting before he walks away. If he is lying down, I only pet him a moment or two.

 

Rudy and you both are on the right track. He is getting so much better. With Payton, sometimes it seems like two steps forward, one step back, but it is still progress.