Wetting Her Crate During The Workday...

[KickReturn]

I don't think exercise is the be all and end all.

 

 

Well it is obvious that I do.

 

We all provide our dogs with the best nutrition, shower them with love and attention, keep them safe from harm, and protect them from getting into trouble. We Greyhound owners seem to be the most caring, conscientious, and knowlegeable group of dog owners I could imagine. The only variable seems to be exercise.

 

I have no science to back up my postioin. It is just that I am driven by terrible guilt if my dog gets one minute less of exercise or adventure than he mighrt want. And I cry for the Schnauser down the street that hasn't been walked in the five years it has been there.

 

Hester came to me as a bounce. He was returned in frustration, described as catatonic by his first owners. Frozen, dull, completely detached, motionless and aloof. Never touched at toy, never approached a person - unable to engage or bond with anyone or anything and food agressive. You have all seen the photos and videos of his daily life - he is the opposite of that description. The difference? His first owners idea of exercise was to let him out in the yard. He had never been on a proper walk until he was six years old. Now he is eight and yesterday someone guessed his age at two. That's all I know about exercise and the well being of dogs. This is a soapbox I will never get off - sorry.

 

Sorry for the the thread hijack. I hope Luna is doing better. If Luna and her mom ever adventure to the west coast of Canada, I have a place for her to stay and safely walk Luna at any time of day or night.

Edited October 12, 2013 by KickReturn

[Guest LunaTheGreyt]

I'm just getting to read all this nonsense, thanks for defending me, guys. Do I wish I didn't have to work a full time job that starts early in the morning? Of course. Fact of the matter is I'm supporting myself and 2 dogs and I must work. I'm a firm believer that the majority of dogs will adjust to the schedule their people hold. Of course if your dog is used to tons of exercise and you were to randomly stop exercising him altogether, I would expect the dog to show some behavioral problems. Fact is, Luna doesn't even enjoy walks past the thirty minute mark - she usually just lays down and refuses to move after 30 or so minutes (especially in warm weather). When I take her to the park, she runs a lap or two, and spends the rest of the time staring at me waiting to leave. She's just not a high-energy dog. She gets some activity inside by getting meals in a treat ball or during a training session. I have had dogs my entire life, and they have all thrived on the amount of exercise we had time to give them. My standard poodle, James, is almost 10 years old, has always gotten the same amount of exercise as Luna (actually way LESS exercise the majority of his life when he was living with my parents), and is in great health with absolutely no arthritis, soreness, and plenty of energy. I really don't appreciate being judged for the way I treat my dogs, especially by a complete stranger.

 

Anyway, to answer more relevant questions, she doesn't get any wet food (not even water on it these days, as I'm hand feeding her), nor does she get peanut butter. I usually just stuff a few bits of a Blue Bar and a Wilderness biscuit in a Kong and smear the insides with the puppy variety Kong stuffing. She works on that til its gone, then sleeps the day away. She has an antler in the crate with her, but usually leaves it alone til I get home. She seems to do fine when she gets the second trip outside right before I leave. Only time she had a wet crate after I started taking her out again was when it was raining torrentially and she refused to pee, even after a few trips around the block. I'll diligently feed her right after the first walk and take out again about an hour later all of this coming week and see what happens! Weather's supposed to be a lot better so it should help the effectiveness of the second trip.

 

I'll update again during the work week.

Edited October 13, 2013 by LunaTheGreyt

[Guest KPS915]

Can you record her for a few days to see what's going on when you're at work? We did that for months when we first adopted Lila. It helped immensely. For us, the crate peeing was a UTI. We also had some anxiety issues that the crate made worse, so we slowly gave her more space and now she has the run of the house.

[Guest SisuGrey]

I think you're doing a great job with Luna - and have been impressed with how well she's doing with her SA. As you know, we have SA problems with our Sisu. Don't really have anything to add - just to keep up the great work!! :-)

[Guest LunaTheGreyt]

Can you record her for a few days to see what's going on when you're at work? We did that for months when we first adopted Lila. It helped immensely. For us, the crate peeing was a UTI. We also had some anxiety issues that the crate made worse, so we slowly gave her more space and now she has the run of the house.

I have her on the webcam all day...whenever I check in she is either laying quietly or sleeping. I am busy when working so I can't watch constantly so I don't know exactly when the wetting occurs. She doesn't have anxiety about the crate so I don't think that's a contributing factor. If she continues wetting this next week I'll take a urine sample to the vet for sure.

[Brandiandwe]

But good news that the extra walk might be helping her (and you!). Will be checking out for updates this week.

[Guest RMarie]

Good luck mom and Luna!

[Guest Giselle]

Luna's mom: Sounds like your dog just can't hold it that long during the day. Try hiring a trustworthy college student to let your dog out during the day. Many students, especially animal-loving-ones, would kill for "easy money" like that.

 

KickReturn, I feel obligated to jump in because I'm so tired of your judgmental attitude towards people who "don't exercise their dogs enough", as if exercise is the be-all-end-all for all behavioral problems. You admit that you've never seriously owned a dog before, and it is so obvious by the negative and judgmental attitude you portray towards others around here. Let me put this into perspective for you: The greatest canine athletes - those who compete seriously in agility, protection sports, obedience, and such - probably get around 2-3 miles of walking a day plus additional strength training, such as running free and doing structured core-strengthening and jump exercises. 2-3 miles of walking a day equates to approximately 30-45 minutes, if you're walking at a good clip. Split this into two, and you've got about two sessions of 15-20 minutes. This is for real canine athletes. Yet, I remember being taken aback when you last criticized a GT member for walking her dog 3X a day for 15 minutes. Exactly what gives you the authority to pass judgment over people and proclaim that their "laziness", their "lack of exercise", is ruining their dogs? What gives you the authority to claim that these dogs should receive more exercise or should be "returned" to a better home??

 

It's also one thing to lack a background in science, but it's another thing to ignore psychological, scientific principles and claim that "exercise is the be-all-end-all". If a child is struggling with reading comprehension, enrolling the child in cross-country track will not improve the child's mastery of language or reading comprehension. Behavioral problems in dogs are problems with learning, memory, and human-dog communication. They are NOT exercise problems. It is clear that this one greyhound is your only dog, and, because of that, I can understand why you think dogs are easy. The reality is that [i[greyhounds[/i] are easy. But, I can assure you, you will not and cannot "exercise the bad behavior away" from a highly creative and intelligent Malinois or Doberman. Greyhounds are, fortunately, easy dogs. And exercise helps to keep them so. But challenging dogs require creative and progressive training, and I hope, one day, you will appreciate this fact.

[KickReturn]

I think I appreciate that fact today but I stand by my position. There is an abundance of cases where more excersize is better. And if you rule out a health issue why go looking for a complex solution to a problem that would be solved by an extra walk?

 

Top agility dogs with as little as two 15 minute session? Most of the top agility dogs I see are Border Collies. I can't imagine owning a Border Collie and limiting it to that amount of exercise. Sorry, but with all due respect to your animal behaviourist background, that just doesn't seem right to me.

 

And BTW, the child with a reading problem or other learning disability - regular aerobic exercise will improve their learning performance. Same goes for adults. Science has shown us that.

 

If you want to read some of the studies I recommend you look to the work of CW Cotman. His research is just a small part of a vast body of knowledge and even includes studies involving both animals and humans. Not only is the support for exercise as a enhancer of learning incontrovertable, the magnitude of the correlation is quite remarkable.

Edited October 14, 2013 by KickReturn

[Guest LunaTheGreyt]

It's also one thing to lack a background in science, but it's another thing to ignore psychological, scientific principles and claim that "exercise is the be-all-end-all". If a child is struggling with reading comprehension, enrolling the child in cross-country track will not improve the child's mastery of language or reading comprehension. Behavioral problems in dogs are problems with learning, memory, and human-dog communication. They are NOT exercise problems. It is clear that this one greyhound is your only dog, and, because of that, I can understand why you think dogs are easy. The reality is that [i[greyhounds[/i] are easy. But, I can assure you, you will not and cannot "exercise the bad behavior away" from a highly creative and intelligent Malinois or Doberman. Greyhounds are, fortunately, easy dogs. And exercise helps to keep them so. But challenging dogs require creative and progressive training, and I hope, one day, you will appreciate this fact.

 

As a teacher of young children, I appreciate that comparison.

 

I don't really care what you have to say, KickReturn. I have had this dog for 5 months and this behavior has only cropped up in the past 2-3 weeks. Even when she had her very worst bouts of separation anxiety, howling barking fits, destroying things and breaking out of her crate, she NEVER urinated in the crate. She was receiving the same amount of exercise then as she is now.

 

Anyway, she did wet again today. I immediately took a urine sample to the vet where they found small amounts of blood and white cells. This did not 100% conclude that this is the cause of the wetting, but she is now on a weeklong course of amoxicillin. If there is no improvement by the end of the week, we'll do further testing. Like I've said, this is NOT typical behavior for her and I believe it's most likely medical. If it turns out not to be medical, I will probably have to take her back to daycare and spend $50/week. There are no college students in my area, as I live in a primarily "older person" condo complex. Most people do still work though, and those that don't probably would not be able to make it up to my 4th-floor apartment. It's a tricky situation, but I'm hoping the antibiotics help.

And BTW, the child with a reading problem or other learning disability - regular aerobic exercise will improve their learning performance. Same goes for adults. Science has shown us that.

 

I'm fairly certain that yes, regular aerobic exercise will increase alertness and therefore make the brain more receptive to new info, but you're kidding yourself if you think a diagnosed learning disability is going to disappear with a few laps around a track.

[Guest RMarie]

Poor Luna. If it's medical, I hope the meds work. She's so cute. I want to squeeze her.

[Brandiandwe]

Fingers crossed that it is medical! Poor Luna and poor you!

[Maddiesmom]

Maddie never goes in the house and when shedoes it is because she has a urinary tract infection. She has one right now and when she had an accident, I got a sample and took it to the vet and they confirmed she had one. This is the only time she wets in the house. Mads is now 11 1/2 years old and she does get me up during the night which is fine. I would rather her wake me then have an accident. Maddie is very vocal when she has to go. She barks and runs to the back door and when she comes.in fro during her business she stands in front of the treat jar to make sure I give her a cookie.

 

When I adopted Mads almost 8 years ago, she had bad desperation anxiety. I totally understand what you went through. Mads is on amoxicillin as well. I have to be careful with it as I am allergic to amoxicillin. But I have noticed that she is doing a lot better now that she is on the antibiotic.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Maddiesmom

[Guest Giselle]

I think I appreciate that fact today but I stand by my position. There is an abundance of cases where more excersize is better. And if you rule out a health issue why go looking for a complex solution to a problem that would be solved by an extra walk?

Because you are conflating issues of physical exercise with psychological and behavioral issues. There are *rarely* (if any) behavior problems that can get "exercised away". Again, I understand that you've only ever had a greyhound, so your experience has been easy and smooth thus far. But highly creative and intelligent dogs often lack impulse control, which manifests as "unruly" behavior. These behaviors are manifestations of improperly rewarded actions. They are NOT solved by exercise. They are solved by training. Again, two different issues. Yes, exercises enhances learning ability, but it is NOT a substitute for the act of learning itself. Also, please, read my post more carefully before you judge what I say as incorrect. I did not say that top canine athletes only require 30 minutes total of exercise. I said:

 

 

Let me put this into perspective for you: The greatest canine athletes - those who compete seriously in agility, protection sports, obedience, and such - probably get around 2-3 miles of walking a day plus additional strength training, such as running free and doing structured core-strengthening and jump exercises. 2-3 miles of walking a day equates to approximately 30-45 minutes, if you're walking at a good clip. Split this into two, and you've got about two sessions of 15-20 minutes. This is for real canine athletes.

So, yes, I stand by my statement. Canine athletes probably get about 2-3 miles of walking/jogging a day PLUS strength, core, and sprint training. Very few people would allow their dogs to push past 3-ish miles of jogging PLUS strength, core, and sprint training every day. Pushing for more is how you get injuries. Human athletes understand this principle very well. It is the same for dog athletes.

 

I also did a quick search of "CW Coltman + exercise" in our science databases, and I found nothing. In what peer-reviewed journal does this person publish his articles?

 

As for Luna, the RBCs and white blood cells, especially, are pretty telling. I'd recommend trying to hire a dogwalker for the week that she's on antibiotics, and start from the ground-up in a few weeks, again. Good luck! She probably has a medical issue that is exacerbated by not being able to go pee mid-day.

[Guest k9soul]

I've kept up with the thread but haven't had any advice. I do hope that maybe it is something the antibiotics can maybe clear up. I'm sure this has all been very worrisome for you.

[Tallgreydogmom]

Did anyone mention getting a washable incontinent pad to put in the crate under the usual blanket? This will absorb if necessary. Otherwise it's just there in the crate. I use them. Every now and then someone didn't take care of business. I can just throw the pad in the washer, give the bottom of the crate a quick wipe down if needed.

[Guest Giselle]

Okay, my last post, and then I'm washing my hands of this. Just so we aren't flinging around words with no proof... I was a full-time college student and am now a full-time (and then some!!) vet student. My current dog, a neurotic non-grey, is lucky if she gets more than 35 minutes of walking a day. I try to fit in free-running and strength training several times a week, but, y'know, this is hard as a vet student. Regardless, our exercise is enough so that she looks and performs as a respectable athlete (see below). You can't fake that kind of muscle tone and definition!

She is no sprite young puppy. She is 7 years old. My point is: Dogs can do very well with moderate exercise. They can build and maintain muscle with moderate exercise. They can perform at peak levels with moderate exercise. So, as long as these dogs are getting out and moving around for at least half an hour a day, I think we should all be proud and happy with our exercise regimens. To Luna's mom and to all of GT, do not feel bad about your exercise regimen. Moderate exercise is more than sufficient for most middle-aged greyhounds. You all are greyt dog folks!

[Guest LunaTheGreyt]

Did anyone mention getting a washable incontinent pad to put in the crate under the usual blanket? This will absorb if necessary. Otherwise it's just there in the crate. I use them. Every now and then someone didn't take care of business. I can just throw the pad in the washer, give the bottom of the crate a quick wipe down if needed.

 

I'm not sure if anyone did, but I'm actually searching Amazon for a pad to put in the crate now. I was thinking I'll wait to buy one until we're finished with this round of antibiotics. I thought of buying extra-absorbent human incontinence pads to put in some "Bad Girl Pants," but I wasn't sure if the urine would irritate her skin or cause infection. They say they are absorbent enough to wick away moisture, but I have no experience with any kind of diaper, especially on a dog. I am gone for 8.5 hours and I have a feeling she's probably going in the last hour or two before I get home (but I don't know for sure...I can't stare at my webcam all day because I actually have to work...lol). Anyone have experience with using the giant adult diapers on a dog?

 

I REALLY hope the antibiotics solve the problem because this is a whole new can of worms I never expected to open! Since nothing has changed in her exercise routine I can't imagine that "more exercise" is the answer to the problem, even if the culprit is not an infection.

 

P.S. Thanks for the support & understanding that the average person doesn't have room in the day to take marathon walks - especially with this breed! It would be overkill for most. Luna enjoys her 5-6 walks per day that last 5-15 minutes each. She always comes inside and takes a nap after each one.

Edited October 15, 2013 by LunaTheGreyt

[Brandiandwe]

She looks fabulous Giselle! (But why is she doing all the work? Weave, girl, weave!)

 

Hoping that the antibiotics do the trick. When Brandi wets in the house, the problem is usually a UTI. But maybe you could start bringing her into work? I'm sure the kids would love it.

 

As for exercise, I can't imagine spending four hours a day exercising my dogs. They have their time, but I also have a life which involves a job, a family, friends and other hobbies. These other things make me happy, which makes me nicer to be around, which makes my dogs happy. I suspect exercising them four hours a day would result in extreme grumpiness!

Edited October 15, 2013 by Brandiandwe

[Guest LunaTheGreyt]

She looks fabulous Giselle! (But why is she doing all the work? Weave, girl, weave!)

 

Hoping that the antibiotics do the trick. When Brandi wets in the house, the problem is usually a UTI. But maybe you could start bringing her into work? I'm sure the kids would love it.

 

Oh, how I wish I could do that, but the school system is extremely strict about animals on the premises. We do have 2 therapy dogs that come read with select children in a mobile classroom (read: trailer) on the school grounds once a week, but the kids need permission slips and the dogs have passed all their therapy dog tests in order to come. I definitely would not be allowed to have her in my classroom daily. If worst comes to worst I may be able to convince my admin to let me go home over my lunch break. I live about 10-12 minutes from my school and only have 30 minutes for lunch, so it would be cutting it very close (not to mention I would have to eat while driving). I'm extremely unsure if that would fly with them, though, since I would be unavailable in case of any issues with a student during lunch. Sigh...teacher problems.

[Brandiandwe]

I think given this is a recent manifestation, you've got to hope that the issue is medical and that the antibiotics work. I've got my fingers crossed!

[KickReturn]

I also did a quick search of "CW Coltman + exercise" in our science databases, and I found nothing. In what peer-reviewed journal does this person publish his articles?

 

 

He is/was at the University of Indiana. His specialty is in dementia but some of his summary articles provide a good explanation of the brain chemistry that makes exercise valuable. Here are two articles from Trends in Neuroscience:

 

http://resulb.ulb.ac.be/facs/ism/docs/behaviorBDNF.pdf

 

https://softchalkcloud.com/lesson/files/H1a0Mp8O5SCTrQ/Exercise_and_the_Brain.pdf

 

He is just one of a group who have looked into this area, so I wouldn't consider his work to be the last word on the subject. The best part is the relationship is that its not just correlated - it's causal. Other research also shows that more is better - in theory an ultra marathoner with get more benefit than a mere marathoner. (I'm not going to test that one though.)

Edited October 15, 2013 by KickReturn

[a_daerr]

Sarah, I just wanted to say that I think you've done a fabulous job with Luna. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this is something medical that goes away with a round of ABX. If not, I would recommend posting on Care.com for a dog-walker. There are lots of people who are college students, in between jobs, stay-at-home parents, etc. who are looking for some extra money. And the other nice thing is that the website does background checks on everybody. In our area, a once-a-day dogwalker runs about $12 a day, which is probably what you'd spend on doggie daycare. The other option is to possibly train her with pee-pads. It's kind of a non-traditional approach, and you'd have to leave her crate door unlocked. But that would be a lot better than doggie diapers or bad-girl pants. I've found that those things are good aids for older dogs with leaking or incontinence issues, but not the best solution if the dog is totally emptying out. If she sits in a wet diaper for two hours, you're looking at the larger problem of bacteria spreading, which results in UTIs.

 

And again, I really applaud your commitment to Luna. Not many owners, especially first-time grey owners, would go to such lengths.

[Guest k9soul]

For what it's worth, Rudy (6 years old) generally gets two walks a day of about 30 minutes each and has been very happy on this regimen. It satisfies my 7-year-old lab mix as well, and my 14-year-old goes on the first walk but stays home on the second. These are exercise walks and not for potty, they do potty stuff in the back yard.

[Batmom]

If your vet saw white cells and blood, she's got an infection. Hoping the antibiotics clear it up and make an end to your problems!