Newbie Owner And A Hard Lesson Learned

[a_daerr]

why does anybody take their Greyhound to a dog park where dogs are not muzzled, i.e., a mixed-dog park.

 

It is possible for low-prey, well socialized, and well trained greyhounds to go to dog parks. Both of my guys love going to the dog park. Truman probably wouldn't have survived puppyhood without it. Then again, I am very vigilant about observing them at all times and their interactions with others. Also, we've worked extensively on "leave it," "drop it," and recall training.

[deboosh]

I'm glad you wrote this. I'm sorry you wrote this.

 

Start practicing your hip check--shoving your Bonnie can interrupt things before they escalate. Remind yourself to NEVER go walking in sandals or flip flops in the summer. Yes, cross the road when necessary. Learn to wave at other dogs from across the street. And try to relax when you see those other dogs. Bonnie will pick up on it. Learn to dawdle behind a car while another dog passes on the other side of the street--what she can't see, she won't react to. In your head, practice the Voice of God yell. Surprisingly, it can work on your dog and the dogs of perfect strangers.

 

Did the little white fluffy (LWF) require medical care or just psychological care?

 

At the time of the attack it didn't appear that Rocky sustained injury. It wasn't until 30 minutes later, when a knock at the door confirmed puncture wounds to his head. His owner took Rocky to the e-vet where his wounds were cleaned and a course of anti-biotics was prescribed. I just pray there won't be any lasting psychological damage; the poor little guy shook uncontrollably. Naturally, we paid for his vet care. His owner was nothing but stellar throughout; she felt terrible for ME!

 

Edited to add: Thank you for the many great tips Liz; point well taken about flip flops. Probably saved my nose from a skinning, lol.

Edited March 3, 2013 by deboosh

[krissy]

 

It is possible for low-prey, well socialized, and well trained greyhounds to go to dog parks. Both of my guys love going to the dog park. Truman probably wouldn't have survived puppyhood without it. Then again, I am very vigilant about observing them at all times and their interactions with others. Also, we've worked extensively on "leave it," "drop it," and recall training.

 

Agreed. You need to be vigilant at the dog park and make sure you keep an eye on the dogs that are there, but I love having Kili play with other dogs. It's great socialization and it tires her out. And they have FUN.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIFT629G1iM

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwooUKP2jkE

[Brandiandwe]

Could I just remind some posters that the incident didn't occur at the dog park, but rather when both dogs were leashed and being walked? Sometimes I think we get derailed talking about dog parks (which obviously can be an issue) but problems also occur, and just as suddenly, when everyone is leashed, as in this incident.

[krissy]

Could I just remind some posters that the incident didn't occur at the dog park, but rather when both dogs were leashed and being walked? Sometimes I think we get derailed talking about dog parks (which obviously can be an issue) but problems also occur, and just as suddenly, when everyone is leashed, as in this incident.

Well I previously addressed the leash incident, but since it went back to dog parks I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents about that too.

[Brandiandwe]

Well I previously addressed the leash incident, but since it went back to dog parks I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents about that too.

 

Sure! And most people did. But I think one of the nice things about this thread is that it does address an issue which we don't deal with quite as much which is unexpected prey drive while on a leash. There are lots of threads on dog parks, lots on unleashed dogs approaching us, but this is dealing with something a bit different and I think it's valuable.

[o_rooly]

Deboosh, maybe it's possible that since -- as mentioned previously -- both dogs were on-leash and perhaps felt confined, perhaps the little dog was too close for comfort, and your hound was issuing a correction? Asking since I think if it were really a prey-driven attack, that little teacup would be long-dead. A few puncture wounds on a tiny dog from a big dog doesn't sound like a huge injury (though it IS an injury, nonetheless -- not trying to write it off!).

My hound Aston is not a fan of little dogs; we've known that from the start -- he was a bounce due to a "vicious attack" on a small white fluffy. However, in the two times that tiny off-leash dogs have run up to Aston on our walks and gotten in his face (and I couldn't Voice of God or kick the little thing away before it JUMPED UP at Aston's mouth ), Aston grabbed both of them by the scruff and literally scared the poop out of them, but left no marks, and we have never been given vet bills by the owners (who are usually out of ear-or-eyeshot when their dog is freely terrorizing the neighborhood, of course). I have chalked these times up to Corrective behavior, NOT an attack. Doesn't mean I think it's a fun situation; I carry a large stick on walks now to hopefully make myself appear more terrifying to off-leash dogs in the vicinity, and will leave a wide berth between us and any small fluffies on walks, on-leash or not.

One thing that has helped us IMMENSELY is "Look at That" training: http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/250366-look-at-that-training/
Aston has MUCH more self-control now in general -- doesn't stiffen when he sees a little dog, or whine, or prance like he used to. He is also MUCH more prone to turning to look at me if I say his name in the presence of triggers. I've also learned a ton from GreyTalk in terms of reading his signals. Different wags mean different things... not all wags are "I just want to say hello!" wags.

I still carry a little hip-bag of tiny treats to continue the training on every walk, since some stimuli are still above his threshold (like the neighbor who walks 5 TINY YAPPY DOGS AT ONCE! agggh ).

So yeah -- the LAT training and a giant stick are pretty much our main lines of defense against future issues
I don't take Aston to dog parts because of the above, but also because of his "onion skin" as my vet calls it.

Edited March 4, 2013 by o_rooly

[Guest june]

Wow, thanks for posting your story. One of my three is not small animal safe and I am always very cautious when we walk and there are small dogs around. My problem is with the small dog-owners! I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "It's OK, s/he is friendly." Duh! What about mine?!!

[Guest memadeit]

Hubby and I have had fights in the past with him "knowing" the dogs and me not trusting them. Instinct is instinct. Love my dogs, but even having them for years, they change as they get older. Instinct can always rear is ugly head any time. But stop beating yourself up. Learn from this and get good out of it.

And I learned not to rely on cat safe and small dog save. Humans are NOT always correct.

[Guest greybookends]

Life is unpredictable. No matter how many books you read, or classes you take. No matter how well you or your dog is trained, you cannot predict the unpredictable. It WILL happen. You can do your best to be prepared for just about anything but when you least expect it it will happen. I am not saying not to be wary, but not to be obsessively aware or, always in a panic. This is not good for you or the dog. Neither one of you will have any fun.

 

When something happens you evaluate it, learn from it and move on. Occasionally no matter how hard we try to prevent things, the worst happens. There may be a reason we can immediately see, there may not be. Sometimes we will never know. All to often I think we try to over think the situation. Weather we want to admit it or not, they are dogs and they cannot speak to us and tell us whats going through their minds and we cannot read their minds. We can interpret the signs we see but lets face it, we are not always right. Some times it just happens for no reason no matter how hard we try to attach a reason to it and it never happens again.

 

I am sorry you and your girl went through this. It is still fresh and you can still read the fear and panic in your words. Take a deep breath. It sounds to me like you did everything right, except let two unfamiliar dogs get to familiar to quick. No one was hurt and you learned a hard lesson. Do not let it take control of you and become over protective and cautious. Be aware but still enjoy your girl.

 

Take a deep breath and thank you for sharing.

[deboosh]

Trust is a dangerous thing... One of my fosters was fine with cats 99% of the time. He would let them run by, swat at his tail, and share his bed. Being naive, I decided to stop muzzling him. Then, out of nowhere, he grabbed one of the cats and ended up killing her. This happened some time ago, but even now, I still feel a mess of emotions. I failed my kitty, and I also set my foster up for failure. As you said, it is difficult and confusing when your dog does something unpredictable. The best we can do is prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

 

I'm glad you're not giving up on Bonnie. She's not a bad dog- she just couldn't fight her instincts this time.

 

How very sorry I am to hear of your tragic loss. It is especially meaningful that you would put aside your own vulnerability for the sake of someone else. No one could be more deserving of compassion; nor is it needed more than from yourself. We cannot know, of the hundreds of decisions we make every day, that any one of them would cause us regret. You have suffered just enough to know that we either come to terms with our actions, moving on as best we can, or shrivel up and die; and we have too many two and four legged beings in our lives depending on us for all the good deeds we do in their day, to be choosing the latter as an option, lol.

 

I am sure your little cat would not be pleased, if she knew you had any memories of her that were not very happy. I know you`ve got most of the time licked, but for those lonely, private moments when we sometimes give ourselves a mental flogging, please don`t let that one decision be the one defining moment that measures your goodness as a human being. (I was going to say, "it's time to change the tape", but I guess now, it should be PVR?) We can be dripping with empathy for everyone and their brother, but are slow about gifting it to ourselves. You're a kind and loving person, and I thank you again for sharing your story. You touched my heart and made me realize that being human cannot be perfection. Debbie xoxo

[Guest Wasserbuffel]

 

Could it be just that this little dog was simply too much in your dogs face? My Bella is not allowed within touching distance of a dog when she passes by, ON LEASH. Because she feels the need to lunge at the dog, yet she gets along great with all dogs at the dog park, when she is OFF Leash. It could not be just that it was a white fluffy, rather an annoying dog that invaded her space, and she was on leash and knew she couldn't get away.

 

This could be the answer. My Jayne is the same way. Off leash she's just fine with other dogs greeting and approaching her, but when she's leashed she gets reactive, especially when confronted with another dog right in her face. When she was still pretty new to me it happened each time she met up with another dog, but as we've been doing more and more M&Gs and I've been rewarding her for not reacting she's improved a great deal.

 

Has Bonnie had a lot of on leash interaction with other dogs?

[Wonder]

I'm sorry this happened and thanks for posting.

 

I've had my dogs for over 5 years each and I still try not to get close non-greys on walks. I know my dogs but I don't know the other dog and my dogs will protect me.

[a_daerr]

Thanks for your kind words, Debbie. It's one of those things I'll probably never forgive myself for... The one positive thing that came out of it was the realization that, even though I wanted to adopt him, keeping that foster was not the right thing to do. He belonged in another home. I believe the kitty I lost has sent me signs that she's okay. A few months afterwards, we adopted my heart-healer (the meezer), and now everyone has been happy and healthy since.

[deboosh]

This could be the answer. My Jayne is the same way. Off leash she's just fine with other dogs greeting and approaching her, but when she's leashed she gets reactive, especially when confronted with another dog right in her face. When she was still pretty new to me it happened each time she met up with another dog, but as we've been doing more and more M&Gs and I've been rewarding her for not reacting she's improved a great deal.

 

Has Bonnie had a lot of on leash interaction with other dogs?

 

No, practically none. All her on-leash exposure has been by her dingdong owners. Most likely, her reaction to stimuli is also her challenge. Our co-ordinator agrees. Yesterday, she paid us a visit to demonstrate clicker use, (duh, really? I need a lesson in clicker use?) as our goal too, is to reward no reaction. Thanks for the glimmer of hope!

[deboosh]

Deboosh, maybe it's possible that since -- as mentioned previously -- both dogs were on-leash and perhaps felt confined, perhaps the little dog was too close for comfort, and your hound was issuing a correction? Asking since I think if it were really a prey-driven attack, that little teacup would be long-dead. A few puncture wounds on a tiny dog from a big dog doesn't sound like a huge injury (though it IS an injury, nonetheless -- not trying to write it off!).

 

My hound Aston is not a fan of little dogs; we've known that from the start -- he was a bounce due to a "vicious attack" on a small white fluffy. However, in the two times that tiny off-leash dogs have run up to Aston on our walks and gotten in his face (and I couldn't Voice of God or kick the little thing away before it JUMPED UP at Aston's mouth ), Aston grabbed both of them by the scruff and literally scared the poop out of them, but left no marks, and we have never been given vet bills by the owners (who are usually out of ear-or-eyeshot when their dog is freely terrorizing the neighborhood, of course). I have chalked these times up to Corrective behavior, NOT an attack. Doesn't mean I think it's a fun situation; I carry a large stick on walks now to hopefully make myself appear more terrifying to off-leash dogs in the vicinity, and will leave a wide berth between us and any small fluffies on walks, on-leash or not.

 

One thing that has helped us IMMENSELY is "Look at That" training: http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/250366-look-at-that-training/

Aston has MUCH more self-control now in general -- doesn't stiffen when he sees a little dog, or whine, or prance like he used to. He is also MUCH more prone to turning to look at me if I say his name in the presence of triggers. I've also learned a ton from GreyTalk in terms of reading his signals. Different wags mean different things... not all wags are "I just want to say hello!" wags.

 

I still carry a little hip-bag of tiny treats to continue the training on every walk, since some stimuli are still above his threshold (like the neighbor who walks 5 TINY YAPPY DOGS AT ONCE! agggh ).

 

So yeah -- the LAT training and a giant stick are pretty much our main lines of defense against future issues

I don't take Aston to dog parts because of the above, but also because of his "onion skin" as my vet calls it.

 

This is very helpful; Thanks! Will research the previous LAT posts. The stick part is easy~~there's a ravine just down the street, lol.

[deboosh]

Thanks for sharing. That must have been a hard thing to do.

 

While I think it is wise to always be vigilant and perhaps avoid small, hyper dogs... avoiding ALL other dogs is really not a solution. If you do that your girl's socialization will suffer immensely and under socialized dogs are dogs that have problems coping with social interactions. She very well may get MUCH, MUCH worse simply because she becomes unaccustomed to interacting with other dogs. And trust me, you cannot avoid all other dogs all of the time. Accidents happen. Someone could drop a leash and a dog comes running up to you. No problem, you have your dog muzzled. What if the other dog is aggressive and now your dog can't defend herself because she's muzzled?

 

I'm not saying you let her run willy nilly and walk face to face with a small fluffy. I am however suggesting that maybe some training classes might be a good idea. Summit is horribly aggressive towards huskies and almost no other dogs. However he has learned to look to me for guidance. I can safely have him off leash on the trail and call him back to me if I see a husky. I then ask him to watch me as we walk past the husky. But I'm always vigilant. If we DO go to a dog park or something like that I keep a close eye on the in-gate. If I see a husky coming I leash him up and return him to my vehicle.

 

Your points are well taken. A very scary prospect at the moment, but I know absolutely, that you're right. Only yesterday, our adoption co-ordinator voiced the same concerns. If you happen to know of any instructors that service the TO area who are well-versed in greyspeak, would you mind sending me a PM?

[deboosh]

I agree, this was sad to read but very enlightening. You may save others from this type of situation. Sometimes we simply forget they are "dogs".

 

Here's how this is going to help me. There's a man in our neighbourhood who walks his dog (breed unknown but he's a large breed) but this dog lunges at every dog he/she sees. He always keeps lots of space but one thing he does not do is grab the dog when he's lunging at us, he just lets it keep pulling at the end of the leash. I always hope the leash doesn't break because if that dog gets loose, my greys are in serious danger.

 

Next time I see him, I'm going to talk to him about this and hopefully prevent an incident. If I hadn't read your story, I wouldn't be so motivated. I've thought about it, but this time I'm going to "do" it. I'm also going to suggest a behaviourist, but it's unlikely he's going to heed my advice.

 

Once again thanks for being so brave and sharing this.

 

I'm so glad something good will come from this. And thanks for explaining how.

[deboosh]

Please don't muzzle at a mix park. A greyhound here in NC was seriously injured because he was wearing a muzzle, he could not defend himself when a mix breed decided he didn't like the greyhound! I have learned when the dog park is usually empty and go in the mornings during the week (my job allows days off during the week) when everyone is at work. If a non greyhound shows up I take mine out....

 

If anyone wants to understand more of how a dogs mind works I suggest reading "The Dog's Mind". Great book and it covers dogs in general, including how a sighthound processes what is chases...... I think they are low priced on amazon, maybe even available for kindle and nook by now

 

Just reserved "The Dog's Mind" from my local library. Thanks for suggesting it!

[Feisty49]

Please don't muzzle at a mix park. A greyhound here in NC was seriously injured because he was wearing a muzzle, he could not defend himself when a mix breed decided he didn't like the greyhound! I have learned when the dog park is usually empty and go in the mornings during the week (my job allows days off during the week) when everyone is at work. If a non greyhound shows up I take mine out....

 

If anyone wants to understand more of how a dogs mind works I suggest reading "The Dog's Mind". Great book and it covers dogs in general, including how a sighthound processes what is chases...... I think they are low priced on amazon, maybe even available for kindle and nook by now

 

Is the book "The Dog's Mind" the one written by Bruce Fogle? Just wonderin' because on Amazon it's called a reference book and a new paperback costs $36.95. There are used ones from $6.88.

[deboosh]

Is the book "The Dog's Mind" the one written by Bruce Fogle? Just wonderin' because on Amazon it's called a reference book and a new paperback costs $36.95. There are used ones from $6.88.

 

That was the author's name when I reserved my copy from the library online.

[Guest Frannie]

Hi Deboosh,

 

Thank you for an eloquently written account of exactly what I'm going through--on my seventh greyhound. As I work with Yurtie, who joined my household in mid-March, I'm really getting to appreciate that as much as he is my best friend, he is also quintessentially "Other."

 

I may love his otherness, but I also have to respect it. (And I don't like all of it.) On Sunday, had I not been nicely wired up on my own reflexes, he might have killed a cat. I didn't even see him leave the ground he was standing on beside me. He just vanished and reappeared magically about a quarter of an inch away from a neighbor's calico. I never, but never, let my greys off their leashes on walks, but I have been known to get distracted, or stressed, or just not as on my toes as I wish I always were. I jerked the leash back just in time. In doing so, I was also afraid that I might hurt him.

 

He is the keenest dog I have ever had.For the most part, he seems benign enough with small dogs, but there's a size below which any animal is lunch. And I'm not quite sure where that line is. It is absolutely amazing to watch him run after a bird, who can lift her body skyward at the last minute. It is also sobering. As much as I think I may be an expert at my skills as a greyhound mom, I am not.

 

I feel like I have gone from the dizzy-in-love phase to the "oh this 45-mph stuff is serious business" phase. He is delightful. He has already changed a lot. He is going to change more. A lot of those changes are going to be mine to shape, others mine to marvel at, and some of them are going to be mine to just witness. Others will be his and his alone.

 

I'm glad you reminded all of us of some very important, difficult lessons.

 

Frannie

 

 

 

[Guest FullMetalFrank]

I always try to remember, with my hounds, that they are hunters at heart. Their natural behavior to chase has just been redirected a bit to fit their modern careers as racers; it can just as easily adapt to things like lure coursing, (emotionally and physically stimulating, challenging, and exciting for dog and human) or, let's just say, hunting small fluffys, a totally undesirable adaptation of the natural hunting behavior. I walk Jewels in a muzzle; she is always muzzled at coursing practice, too. For HER safety. Because if I don't protect her from her instinctive, although sometimes not-so-deo that gredsirable behavior and she goes for a small fluffy or maims a cat, she could be in jeapordy of AC sanctions and also would acquire a label as a "bad dog" and I wasn't doing my job. I tell people who ask about the muzzle pretty much that; it's not a punishment or impairment, it is greyhound safety gear, like a hockey mask or a football helmet's face mask. If more people had that view of proper muzzles they might be more accepted for dog parks, etc...

 

All of my hounds have had an interest in chasing. Fortunately most of them have preferred a nice white plastic bag to live prey :-) but Chelsa my bridge girl was a cat hunting, bunny stalking death machine (if she'd had the chance) and a very keen lure courser as well. I made the mistake of taking her muzzle off too soon at an LGRA sprint race and she seized the jackalure ( a fuzzy furry lure) and I could NOT get her to let go. I picked her up with the darn thing! It was HERS, she got it fair and square. The huntmistress that day showed me a trick to make them let go; reach between the back legs and find where the femoral artery runs and give a hard quick pinch; it smarts and tehy will forget about the (lure, small fluffy. old rotten crud off the sodewalk) you want them to drop) and let go to see what's pinching them. Good to use in heated situations because your hand will be out of bite range before they see it was you. (My Chelsa, BTW, saw where the lure operator kept the jackalure when we were putting up the gear after practice. And every trial, every practice, after that, if you let her get close enough that green tote, her head would be in there after that lure... She was quite a girl.)

[Guest DogNewbie]

Thank you so much for sharing your story! I am so glad no one was hurt. My BF and I recently adopted our first grey on July 5. It is definitely important for us to remember that we don't know him! Which is important for Wiley safety and other dogs that may be around. Thank you for sharing your story and allowing everyone to learn from it.

[Guest FastDogsOwnMe]

I've had a very scary dog park experience myself. Two in fact. Both were instances where small dogs were in the wrong (big dog) side of the park, even though a small dog area is provided. I have no where to exercise my dogs in this city except the dog park, so I still go (and I no longer have the high prey dogs in question), but I loudly and firmly tell small dog owners who attempt to enter the big dog side to go to their side for their dogs' safety, as I cannot be 100% sure my sighthounds won't give chase to their small dogs.

 

Thanks for sharing your story.