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Incontinence And Proin?


Guest SusanP
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Guest SusanP

Zippy Zappy is 14 1/2 and has more and more trouble making it to the door for both poop and pee. Recently, she had a UTI, which we treated, and at the end of her course of antibiotics, her urine sample looked good to the vet. But she seems to be having slightly more trouble with urine accidents than before. Not sure if she just developed the habit of peeing by the front door (carpet has been cleaned by me and commercial cleaners with deep flush and I have a rubber sheet and washable incontinence pads down, and usually she hits them). I also wondered if the irritation from a UTI can linger for awhile after the infection is cleared up? I thought about rechecking her urine, but the vet said it looked good before, that it is not likely due to infection, and that instead she suggested starting Zippy on Proin.

 

But I'm reading scary stuff about this med, and I'm thinking we may not want to go that route. Still, I thought I'd ask the "experts" of Greytalk for their take on this issue.

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I'm not an expert but Bella did fine on it. It was really a life changer for us. There was a reason my vet opted for it rather than DES but it escapes me right now.

 

I was able to wean her down to a very small dose. He said there are 3 kinds of old girl dogs, ones that need a high dose forever, the majority like Bella that can be weaned way down and some that only need it for several weeks.

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Guest Amba1027

My parent's grey is on Proin and it works well for them. They have her on a half tab once a day. Anytime they've tried to up the dosage (sometimes she starts to have pee problems again) they have seen side effects that they don't like so they keep her on the lower dose.

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If she's having accidents, as in squatting somewhere, that isn't incontinence and Proin/DES won't help. If she's making a wet spot from unbeknownst-to-her leakage while she sleeps, that would be incontinence.

 

I would recheck her urine to start with. With hard-to-cure UTIs, sometimes it's worthwhile to check right when antibiotics are finished, then @ 10 days later.

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

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Guest greybookends

Sheana is on it and has been for many years with no side effects.

 

 

 

You can find many scary stories about penicillin and many other drugs. The fact is that not everyone can take every drug. many react violently and with deadly consequences to many different drugs. The only way to find out which will happen is to take the drug.

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Shane had a UTI for the better part of a year. Vet kept "looking" at the urine and saying it looked good. When I finally insisted on a culture, as he had refused food and had become lethargic and hard to rouse from sleep, it found E. coli.

 

We'd finish the antibiotic, he'd still be leaking, and vet would call it incontinence. (But he hadn't done well on Proin before, and I wouldn't try it again.) So I'd ask to repeat the culture, and sure enough, there was still E. coli. This happened three times.

 

After we finally got rid of the infection months later, there was still slight leakage. Had to put him on a medium-protein renal food. That took care of most of it, but he still had to go out more frequently for a while. Also found that pain can cause leakage too, as when their arthritis makes them not want to get up and go out unless it's really urgent.

Mary with Jumper Jack (2/17/11) and angels Shane (PA's Busta Rime, 12/10/02 - 10/14/16) and Spencer (Dutch Laser, 11/25/00 - 3/29/13).

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If she's having accidents, as in squatting somewhere, that isn't incontinence and Proin/DES won't help. If she's making a wet spot from unbeknownst-to-her leakage while she sleeps, that would be incontinence.

 

Agreed. Two of our grey girls (Darcy and Bonny) are on 50mg of Proin daily and do fine on it. They only have accidents though when sleeping.

Laura with Celeste (ICU Celeste) and Galgos Beatrix and Encarna
The Horse - Gracie (MD Grace E)
Bridge Angels Faye Oops (Santa Fe Oops), Bonny (
Bonny Drive), Darcy (D's Zipperfoot)

 

 

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Guest SusanP

If she's having accidents, as in squatting somewhere, that isn't incontinence and Proin/DES won't help. If she's making a wet spot from unbeknownst-to-her leakage while she sleeps, that would be incontinence.

 

Agreed. Two of our grey girls (Darcy and Bonny) are on 50mg of Proin daily and do fine on it. They only have accidents though when sleeping.

 

You know, *this* was the reason the same vet and I decided not to do meds a few months ago--I remember now. No, she is not leaking. She just can't make it all the way to the door before she squats and pees (or hunches up and poops. Sometimes she poops getting up or stepping over things, too). Actually, at this point, I have a whole *bunch* of reasons I don't want to go this route with her. There are plenty of scary stories about fatal side effects of Proin, and it won't address the real problem here.

 

By "culture", do you mean taking a urine draw through the abdomen and culturing it, or can you do it with a "clean" catch? She's so old and frail I really feel uncomfortable with her ability to tolerate being put on her back for the urine draw...

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You *can* do a culture from a catch if you're willing to lie to the lab :lol . I've done it. That said, my vet doesn't put the dogs on their back to do the sterile draw.

 

One other thing is, at her age she might just have less control. Our elderly whippet had that issue. We made sure to take him out more often, even when he hadn't asked, and especially right before and right after meals. That helped a bunch.

 

Hugs to you and your sweet pupper.

 

 

 

 

ETA: I'm joking a little about lying to the lab. The labs do prefer the sterile draw for a culture but sometimes you just have to do what you have to do. I won't have the sterile draw done for Joseph again -- last time, he got spooked and nearly took out two techs and half the prep room.

Edited by Batmom

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

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Guest 2dogs4cats

At 14 and a half, if she doesn't have an infection, it just could be she has less control. I personally wouldn't use Proin for that. I would just use pee pads.

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Guest DeniseL

My lab mix, Maya, was on proin for many, many years untill she went to the bridge. Never had a problem. It was a big help with her piddling. Boy, I miss her....

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Guest SusanP

Well, she has had less control for the last year or so, but since the infection cropped up and was treated, she is still having more accidents than just before the infection--though not as many accidents *during* the infection. She seems to need to go out once during the night, which was not necessary just before she developed the infection, for example. That's why I worry that she is not 100% over it...though it could be due to her having developed new habits during the infection, and I'm wondering if it could also be due to some residual irritation of her urinary tract following infection, even though the infection is cleared up.

 

I'm going to revisit the idea of another urine sample with culture. Thanks for helping me think this through, Guys!

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At her age not only would I repeat the u/a + or - a culture but, I would run some bloodwork to check her renal values etc.... Is she drinking more?

Btw--I believe that proin should be considered a higher risk drug to place a gh on. Sure every drug has side effects and sure some of them serious or potentially fatal. I myself almost lost a hound after giving only one dose of Proin. Too many similar reports noted about the drug. Wonder how many proin users check their hounds blood pressure prior to use etc....? DES is an alternative-there are side effects noted with that drug too but, at the doses used for spay incontinence it would be a very, very rare finding.

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