This Has Knot Been A Good Morning

[DesiRayMom]

A little back history......if anyone remembers me posting a while back, Desi has foot problems; lesions that appear around his nails.

2 years of testing this culturing that medicating this way, soaking that way.....no reason has ever been found, and I have just been

soaking & treating topically as needed. Vets have always wanted me to try prednisone, thinking immune issue as a last resort. I have

resisted, having had miserable experience with pred with bridge boy Gringo.

 

Novartis has a product called Atopica, an immune suppressant that they say works wonders without most of the awful side effects of pred.

However, it is very very very expensive. I work at a vet clinic & happened to strike up a conversation with the Novartis rep.....

wound up getting 4 boxes of Atopica FREE to try for 2 months, then the rep would bring their derm specialist out to visit the clinic

and see how it was working. Started Wed night. Major adverse event = vomiting; rep said to put pills in the freezer; that would slow

absorption/upset in stomach. Which I did. Pill goes in at bedtime 4 hours after dinner. We have had no vomiting.

 

Wed night..very restless, up at 3:30 insisting on walk. Thurs night, better. Last night, seemed ok, but got up 1/2 hr early.

Went for normal walk, temp in the 50's, by the time we got home, panting heavily. (he's always been a bit heat intolerant, but 50's?)

Came in, made him wait 30 min for breakfast; don't like to feed when panting heavily. Still panting after 30 min but fed anyway.

Des has always been a member of the clean plate club, but this morning only ate 3/4, then began pacing, panting, whining, obviously

in some kind of distress.

 

First thought in panic....gastric torsion. Before I could get my thoughts together to decide whether to rush to clinic, he drank some

water, no vomit, so I decided to wait just a little. More pacing, panting, whining (from a hound that usually hits the couch before I

can get his leash off from a walk). Drank a little more water, no vomit. More pacing, panting, whining, very clingy. This went on for

a solid hour. I tried to get him to lay on the couch with me; no way. Lean on me, whine....pace, pant...repeat.

 

Finally, he seemed to calm down. And now he's in his usual spot, asleep. Even came back & finished his breakfast. I swear, it looked

like a panic attack. Just totally distressed for no apparent reason. One of the reasons I dislike pred was that it gave my bridge boy

Gringo night terrors. He'd jump up in the middle of the night screaming like the devil himself were coming for him & it would take

some time for me to get him settled down again. I'm wondering if this Atopica isn't having the same kind of effect on Desi.

 

The Novartis rep also told me that if I saw any side effects, to try to power through, that they would dimish as his system got used

to it. If this "panic attack" is a side effect, I'm not at all sure I WANT to try to power through. Trying to keep my ownself calm

while watching his distress was most miserable.

 

Have any of you ever tried Atopica? Any advice at all? Thanks for your thoughts, if any.

 

Kathy

[Guest june]

Sorry you are going through this. You know your dog better than anyone else and you have to make the decision if you want to continue to use this. I know I hate it when my dog is in distress and my tolerance for that is very low.

Please keep us updated.

june

[BauersMom]

IMO - I would not continue to give medication to a dog that's possibly having a reaction to it.

[tbhounds]

Price and GI upset are definetly huge drawbacks with Atopica. I was going to suggest you put the capsules in the freezer but, I see you already tried that. I have heard that side effects will diminish in time but, the question you need to ask yourself -- do you want to give it time being you are seeing such miserable side effects. What does your vet think? I would take the advice given by your rep with a grain of salt- reps are very devoted to their products and realistically they want to sell their product. Ther are pther immunosuppressive drugs that you might want to try besides Atopica and Pred. Have you ever tried Tetracycline (Doxy) Niacinamide Omega combo? Sometimes that trio does need to start with a short course of pred but, it's only short term just to reduce the inflammation.

That trio of drugs is the gold standard for SLO treatment.

Edited to add- you may want to ask your vet about also trying pentoxifylline.

Edited March 17, 2012 by tbhounds

[DesiRayMom]

Actually, he spent 6 months on the SLO protocol the first year he was with me. We (vets & I) were all thinking SLO,

even though he has never lost a nail. Saw absolutely no change whatsoever.

[Batmom]

Do the lesions bother him?

 

Have you tried a 12-week elimination diet? (That's 12 weeks of either one protein or ZD Ultra and NOTHING else other than absolutely necessary meds like heartworm & flea/tick.)

[DesiRayMom]

There are several toes affected, one on rear right worst. He doesn't limp, but I have to keep a sock on that foot, or he will

lick it bloody; so it must bother him in some way.

 

First trial was kangaroo/oat - 6 months, no change. Second trial = duck/potato/grain free. Gave that up after 4 months due to

soft stool. Third trial = venison/sw.pot/grain free. Has been on that for about 6 months. Does well, except for no change in

feet. Perhaps Z/D would be worth a try.

[Batmom]

It might be worth steeling yourself to home-prep for 12 weeks -- beef or pork only. Only reason I suggest is, Batman's red itchy feet turned out to be an allergy to fish and fish oil, which is in just about every commercial dog food, coat/skin supplement, etc. on the market these days. Not saying this is the case with your boy, but it *could* be a food allergy to some lesser, widely used ingredient ..... We got lucky and found the source of Batman's problem by accident, before we'd spent more than a few hundred on meds, tests, etc.

[DesiRayMom]

I did think of fish oil at one time. He had been taking a fish oil supplement (makes his coat yummy soft). So switched to

flaxseed oil for a few months. No difference. But I know you're right...fishoil is in seemingly EVERYTHING in some amount or another.

 

Oh my, how trying home-cooked freaks me out. I don't cook for myself (live on Stouffer's, Lean Cuisine, and cereal).

 

Only for the love of hounds!!

[Batmom]

If you thought it would be worthwhile to try it, it really isn't that hard. Ground beef is easiest. (I won't feed grocery store ground beef raw anymore, so I cook it. YMMV.) Microwave in a big bowl -- zap 2 minutes, let it stand 1 minute, mix up, zap 2 more minutes, repeat till done ... or just put it in a pot on the stove with a little water so you can simmer gently instead of fry. @ 10-15 minutes either way for 2-3 lbs. Costly but maybe not so different from regular food + meds + vet visits .....

[DesiRayMom]

Considering a 28lb bag of NB Ven/SP costs me nearly $50 & lasts about 3 weeks, can gr.beef be much worse?

 

Am I understanding correctly - gr.beef ONLY - no extra anything added? (That's my old mom "balanced diet" kicking in I guess.)

And if that is the case, how much volume would one meal be? He weighs usually about 85 lb, give or take from one week to the

next, and right now is getting a scant 2 cups of kibble with 2 tblsp wet mixed in twice a day & a few treats thrown in throughout

the day (all ven/sw.pot. I might add).

 

PS, Batmom, your advice is MOST appreciated. His foster mom (JoeJoes Mom) had taken him to OSU early on when he was with her,

and they had told her it looked like food allergy to them.....hence the fact he was on kangaroo/oat when he came to me.

[Batmom]

What I have done is beef only, with calcium added (altho for an adult dog you don't need to add it over the short term; I buy cheap calcium carbonate pills). Freeze-dried beef or homemade potato chips (yeah, that's a 2nd ingredient, eek) for treats. For 12 weeks you don't need to worry over extra vitamins and whatnot, assuming the dog is reasonably healthy starting out.

 

In theory, you're supposed to use a novel protein, like kangaroo. I'm lazy and cheap and haven't needed to do that. I like the beef route because not so many dog foods include it -- so if the dog was reacting to a commercial food, in most cases s/he wasn't reacting to beef at that time.

 

Amount wise, my little 55-lb Zema ate @ 1.2 lbs. (raw weight) of 80-85% lean beef per day. So I'm guessing you'd probably need @ 1.75 lbs.? You might be able to go fattier than that (and thus a bit cheaper). You can check the calories of the type of ground beef you want to try on the USDA nutrition database (google that, you'll find it) -- add up the calories in the food he's getting, and compare for the amount of meat you'd need. I don't drain the fat.

 

I have done one meat + one carb before as well. That limits the cost a bit but it can be hard to choose a carb. Here I usually start with rice or barley. There aren't too many dogs who are genuinely allergic to those but I have no doubt there are some.

[DesiRayMom]

Thanks....I'm printing this for future ref. I checked NB bag, amazingly, they do not use fish oil....flaxseed,canola, & vit E

supplement. However, I do give him a fish oil capsule once daily. I had switched to flaxseed back when he was eating another

diet, but can't remember what; then when no difference in feet, went back to fish oil (cheaper). Besides which, there are 4 gazillion

other "additives/supplements" in that food as well. I suppose there's an off chance that something in that list does not agree with him, and a home-cooked diet would make a new man of him.

 

I'm leaning right now to trying the Atopica once more tonight, see what happens. If he has another "adverse event" I'll

probably tell Novartis thanks, but they can keep their Atopica. One other thing that was on the warning sheet was possible

diarrhea, and this morning we had 3 paper platesful of pudding poo. I felt like I was carrying a bowling ball in a kroger bag.

 

Just took them out for mid-day break; he seems perfectly fine. Panting, but no more than the norm for sunshine on black fur.

Cooled down quickly on the couch under the ceiling fan.

 

Have you ever heard of pred/immuno-suppressants doing this? I just find it odd/freaky that this is my 2nd hound and the 2nd to

react like this. Gringo was not pure GH, he had enough lab in him that his ears were wonky, but except for that, looked & acted

all GH.

[Batmom]

I have known pred and similar drugs to cause panting and restlessness. Haven't had *huge* problems with that over the years but have never had a dog on a very high dose.

[joejoesmom]

Batmom,

 

Would white potato be a reasonable additive to the ground beef? I had thought that it was an unlikely allergen, less likely to cause problems than rice or barley. But I am definitely not an expert on this. I ask because it is relatively inexpensive and easy to cook.

 

Kathy,

 

Most people consider me a good cook. I would be happy to give you a lesson in cooking Desi food if you feel you need it.

 

Jane

 

p.s. give that sweet boy a hug from me.

 

edited to add: If it were me, I probably wouldn't try the Atopica anymore unless my vet felt really confident it was the right thing to do. In other words, I don't trust people who are trying to sell me something.

Edited March 17, 2012 by joejoesmom

[Batmom]

Can't see potato being much different than barley or rice. I tend to favor rice because I have a large nonstick rice-cooker :lol . Like I said, lazy. Most of my pups have not done well digestion-wise on any significant quantity of potato, sweet potato, or pasta. Others have different results, though.

[mychip1]

Not sure if this helps....but one time my Beagle was having some type of itchy reaction to something...so the vet suggested benadryl. She just wigged out.....panicky, pacing, nervous, etc.....

 

She was fine on Pred.

[MaryJane]

Did they ever do a fungal culture on her feet?

 

What about tick borne diseases - has a snap test been done?

 

And I would really suggest doing the elimination diet.

[DesiRayMom]

Fungal Culture = neg. TBD = neg

 

In the past 2 yrs have tried 3 novel proteins, and grain-free.

 

All my vets where I work lean toward immune issues....they've wanted me to try the Atopica for months, but was too much $ until

I got those 4 boxes free. I'd kind of like to give it a chance, just to prove to myself (and vets) whether it's an immune issue

or not.

 

Update for this morning. Did give the Atopica last night. My thinking on the 10 pm dosing was that he would sleep through the

worst of any side effects (he's a REAL good sleeper). Last night (this morning) he was up a 4 am, whiny & pacing, but not in a

panic like he was yesterday. I finally got up at 5 & took the boys for a long walk, making them s-t-r-o-l-l & letting them sniff

each & every post & pole, so as not to get him all "revved up." He's been fine....came home, ate breakfast & now he's back in bed

sound asleep.

 

One other thing I might try before I give it up.....since the anxiety seems to come about 6 hours post-pill, I may switch timing to

mid-morning (he comes to work with me) several hours after breakfast (pill needs to be on empty stomach). That way, the 6 hour

mark will come mid-afternoon, I can take him out for a stroll, plenty of people who love him around to help get him through that

anxiety stage, then maybe we can get back to getting some sleep.

 

If the diarrhea doesn't ease up pretty soon, though, it'll be a deal breaker. 3 more paperplatesful of pudding poo this morning.

Yuck. He's able to hold it, but when when it comes, it comes in buckets. It's hard to believe that 2 cups of kibble can make

that much poo.

[Guest BiancasMom]

I used Atopica on my Aussie for Discoid Lupus. He had similar side effects. He would vomit 1-2 hours after administration. I never knew about the freezer trick. He also had some diarrhea while on it and his appetite decreased. We tried a lower dose and it did decrease his side effects but it was not effective for his Lupus at the lower dose. It did work great for his Lupus at the proper dose, but he was miserable on it so we went with Pred. He of course had side effects while on the predisone but they were easier to deal with and he was happier.

[DaisyDoodle]

I have a couple of different ideas, but don't know if any would be helpful.

 

I like your idea of changing dose time. That seems like a good solution. You can also observe his behavior while you're awake also.

 

If you stayed with night dose, would benedryl help keep him quiet?

 

Questions about symptoms--are symptoms consistent throughout the year or are they worse at different times? Are there any other symptoms or just toes? I'm thinking this might be a contact issue rather than a dietary issue. Grass, rugs, chemicals on lawn, snow melt chemicals you or your town use, floor cleaning?? products, something he's being exposed to at your workplace?

 

My Daisy is allergic to 22 things according to Spectrum allergy testing via blood work. Many allergens are plant related. (We didn't do Dr. Dodd's test because it requires dog to chew on rope toy and Daisy doesn't play with toys.)

 

One heads up about foods. The manufacturers can add ingredients for up to 6? months without listing them on label. They often change ingredients permanently without too much fanfare, so that a food that worked suddenly doesn't work any more. This happened to us with Natural Balance Venison and Sweet Potato when pea protein was added. Peas are one of the things Daisy is allergic to.

 

BTW, looked up the drug's webpage and the soft stool is apparently due to the castor oil in the product, rather than the active ingredient (drug) itself.

[DesiRayMom]

DaisyDoodle: Thanks for your comments.

 

Re the Benedryl.....I did give him some Tramadol last night, that may have helped him not rev up to the panicy stage.

 

Lesions on toes come & go seemingly at their own whim...no certain seasons....all year long, sometimes better, sometimes worse.

I had him allergy tested by Heska, the only thing their environmental screen came up with were dust mites. Good luck to me trying

to keep dust mites away. I vacuum frequently, wash his bedding weekly, not much else you can do for those miserable things.

I did try an antihistamine for a while after that allergy panel came back...no effect.

 

When you did your allergy testing with Spectrum, did you do environmental only? Or the food also? At our clinic we have always

used Heska, and they have always told me that testing for food allergies is not reliable, and just to do food trial. However, a

client came to us already on Spectrum allergy serum, so we tried them for one other, & they came back with all sorts of food

allergies and even a 6-page suggestion of foods compatible. So I wonder whether Heska is lame, or Spectrum is pulling our legs.

The difference between those 2 companies I've found is that Heska always have vets there who will consult on a case any time &

make suggestions. I have had no luck at all talking to anyone at Spectrum (other than the order taker). They're also a little

pricier than Heska, but I may bite the bullet & give them a try, see what comes up; just for curiosity sake if nothing else.

[tbhounds]

Really think you should ask your vet about trying pentoxifylline.

Just might help and there's no side effects which is a huge plus in my book.

Another thought- have you tried a gluten free diet??

 

Can't see potato being much different than barley or rice. I tend to favor rice because I have a large nonstick rice-cooker :lol . Like I said, lazy. Most of my pups have not done well digestion-wise on any significant quantity of potato, sweet potato, or pasta. Others have different results, though.

Potatos are gluten free.

[DaisyDoodle]

We did the Spectrum testing with Dr. Radcliffe in Wheeling in November. They do report results for food, plants, tons of stuff. I can't really say I'm impressed. We aren't using the serum. Food list is not necessarily up to date--the NB I mentioned above was on the OK list; also things that had fish oil in them when results say Daisy is allergic to fish.

 

I'm not having any luck with new food trials either. Cal. Naturals Lamb & Rice was a bust (on the list). Dr. Jim wants us to try Royal Canin (sp?) Venison & Potato, but it seemed really expensive (about $70/17 lbs). Even ZD Ultra doesn't seem to be working. ZD is expensive too. June Bazar's son (a vet in PVD--I live in 2 places) recommended the ZD.

 

It sounds like the Heska testing was at least as good if not better than Spectrum. I would suggest that you look at the Specturm list of things they test. If there are a number of things they test for that Heska doesn't, it might be worth it to do the Spectrum test too.

 

This might be interesting. Spectrum has a competitor no-charge retest program. I don't know if this would work with the testing you had done.

 

http://www.vetallergy.com/veterinarians/retest-program/

 

 

Here's the list of things Spectrum will test for for the Ohio area.: http://www.vetallergy.com/veterinarians/wp-content/themes/veterinarian/maps/docs/OH_Canine.pdf

 

Is there a lot of overlap with the Heska test?

[DesiRayMom]

DaisyDoodle: Thanks for the websites! Very interesting! Without having his Heska sheets in front of me (they're at work in his chart)

here's what I can remember: Heska only tests for 3 types of fungals....that's another thing they say is good to know, but serum for

is barely over 50% effective. Best choice, hunt down offending fungus & destroy. They do 2 types of mites; dust and storage.

All the midwest green stuff (grass,trees,weeds) all look about the same. Staph & malessezia weren't on Heska's sheet (which I find

interesting, because every time we do a cytology and/or culture of the lesions, it comes back staph but does not respond to any of

the meds they say it is suseptible to).

 

And conveniently, I remember no mention of the competitor re-test program in all the new client info they sent us. I WILL be

looking into that.

 

 

tbhounds: What's your thinking on the Pentoxifylline? I had to google that...had never heard of it. Near as I can understand,

it decreases blood viscosity and increases tissue oxygen. Help the lesions heal & stay healed?

 

Gluten free.....he's on NatBal ven/sw.pot. Wouldn't that be gluten free? No grain, right?

 

 

(edited for typo/brain disorder)

Edited March 18, 2012 by DesiRayMom