3-Day Fecals

[NeylasMom]

I don't know very much about 3-day fecals, only that they are sometimes run to identify worms when a normal fecal has missed them. I'm curious if anyone has more info - are they generally close to or completely reliable, both for worms and other parasites? Or can you still get false negatives?

 

Faith has been having some issues since right before Dewey. Started with a bout of pretty nasty diarrhea. I put her on a bland diet and flagyl and it cleared up. She had recently been switched from Pro Plan sensitive stomach to Kirkland chicken and rice when that happened. While at Dewey, I transitioned her back to kibble (and finished up the flagyl) and her stool stayed normal, but when we got back, I noticed she was shedding a ton and over the next few weeks her coat became dull and rough and she started scratching a lot. Then she had a second more minor bout of diarrhea. At that point we ran a fecal (negative) and gave her her second round of dewormer, which she was due for anyway (we deworm when our dogs come off the track and again 3 months later). She was barely on bland and then back to kibble with some pumpkin for a bit and then we transitioned her to Nature's Domain fish & sweet potato figuring her issues were likely food related.

 

This past Friday, the day after I adopted her, I started her on raw. I was really anxious to do this since it seemed likely her issues were related to the food. I fed ground chicken with bone for the first few days, everything was going great. Monday we tried chicken quarters, went great. Tuesday, same thing. Yesterday morning, stool was pretty runny. I fed her a quarter and some ground and then last night she got diarrhea again. We were up every 3 hours or so through the night and into the morning and this morning she vomited some bile (it had bits of bone, this is actually normal for a dog transitioning to raw). I just gave her some pumpkin about a half an hour ago and will see how that goes.

 

Anyway, I want to continue with the transition to raw - I may do cooked chicken and pumpkin until her system "resets" and then do ground for a bit longer before going back to whole pieces - but I want to make sure I'm not missing a medical issue like worms or giardia and the only thing I can think of to do is a 3-day fecal.

 

Also, how much stool do you need to provide? I know for a regular it's a very small amount. Thinking Faith is pretty empty at this point, but I'd like to get it in asap, preferably today, but if not then tomorrow morning.

Edited November 17, 2011 by NeylasMom

[PrairieProf]

Not an expert, but 3 day fecals are cultures designed specifically to test for bacteria, not just/particularly parasites. The time is needed for the bacteria to grow in the culture. It would be a good idea to do since raw food (among other things) could be a source of bad bacteria.

 

Beth's diarrhea issues turned out to be related to pancreatic problems -- she was just under the borderline for pancreatitis. We found that out only because we did a TLI test and some other stuff (b12/folate) trying to figure out what was going on. She's much better on a low-fat diet (and, for better or worse, no more raw). So that has left me a big fan of checking this stuff.

Edited November 17, 2011 by PrairieProf

[Burpdog]

Years ago (more than I'd like to admit), we had a PHD (might have been a vet too) that did his thesis on tapeworms. We got a lot of education during that talk One of the things he said was if you really wanted to do a good check for worms, you should take in a sample everyday for 3 days in a row.

 

so many of the greyhounds carry a worm load that I just worm them 5 days with panacur and do not do a fecal. I don't worm for tape until/unless I see them. The only time I do a fecal is if I suspect giardia.

[NeylasMom]

Now I've confused myself. Is a 3- day fecal a special test, or do you just run fecals 3 days in a row?

[PrairieProf]

Oh, I was assuming you meant a fecal culture ... I hadn't heard of regular fecals 3 days in a row, though that makes sense. (Why not do a culture, though, anyway, since you have no specific reason to believe the issue is parasites, and are trying to figure out what's wrong?)

[MaryJane]

Now I've confused myself. Is a 3- day fecal a special test, or do you just run fecals 3 days in a row?

 

It never used to be a special test, it's just a regular fecal check but you do it for three days in a row.

[NeylasMom]

Oh, I was assuming you meant a fecal culture ... I hadn't heard of regular fecals 3 days in a row, though that makes sense. (Why not do a culture, though, anyway, since you have no specific reason to believe the issue is parasites, and are trying to figure out what's wrong?)

I didn't even know that was an option.

 

I'm really not sure what I want to do. Part of me now thinks I should just put her on Flagyl and a course of Panacur and finish her transition to raw and see if the issues resolve for good or not. If things don't calm down soon I'm going to have to do the Flagyl anyway, which I'm guessing would compromise a fecal culture, if not the regular fecal and right now there's no "sample" to take to the vet.

[inugrey]

I would probably do the flagyl and 10 full days of Panacur at this point.

[EnzaFerrari]

As Flagyl upsets Enza's stomach, I usually just give her panacur for a few days and see if that helps resolve it. But I only do that if it's been an on going problem as a day or two of tummy troubles is not uncommon for someone who likes to use our walks as a buffet of inkiness.

 

I also found that fecals never showed what was wrong with her until the third or fourth time they were ran and then they just put her on Panacur anyways. But I'd go with Giarda based on coat issues and other things. When Enza had it, she looked awful - lost a ton of weight in a very short amount of time, lost some hair, etc.

 

(Or was that hookworms....sigh.)

 

 

[NeylasMom]

Would it make sense with either worms or a bacteria that the stomach issues would be so intermittent? The strange thing to me is that she seems to have a pretty iron-clad stomach most of the time and once the diarrhea passes I have no problem switching her back to kibble, she's back to totally normal firm stool, etc.

[MaryJane]

My advice would be to go back to the bland diet and do cooked food. Try using hamburger rather than chicken and see if that makes a difference. Also add some veggies to provide some fiber and see what happens after a few days.

[MandysMom]

Jen, I had a long chat with Dr. Kocen at SouthPaws about this subject when Mandy had a couple of back-to-back (no pun intended) rounds of stomach issues.

 

He told me that most of the protocols involved performing multiple 3-day fecal checks, but that most of the literature he has read advises that even with doing that, false negatives were common and to just give a full treatment of Panacur. I did so and it made a difference. I believe (it's been about 5 years now, so my memory is a bit dim) we did Panacur for 7 days. Her diarrhea pre-treatment was intermittent, but when it was bad, it was BAD.

 

I would wonder, however, if maybe she's sensitive to chicken. I know another adopter from our group has a dog that had recurring intermittent issues (she was feeding raw as well) and when chicken was completely cut out, she stopped having issues. Interestingly, that dog doesn't have issues with turkey.

 

The other thing you might try is Vibrant Pets. I know several dogs that have done well with it.

 

By the way, I was told that only a tiny amount was required for a fecal, however I would just bring in the whole "deposit".

 

I hope Faith feels better soon!

[Batmom]

3-day fecals are a way to catch more stuff.

 

For hooks, you want to worm a couple times at @ 3-week intervals. Not saying she has hooks. But, a longer interval won't get them.

[NeylasMom]

Thanks everyone.

 

Beverly, that was especially helpful, thanks.

 

After reading all of this and doing some more research on the difficulty of diagnosing giardia and the symptoms (and especially that with flagyl you generally see sypmtoms subside and return later) I think it's reasonable to think this could be what we're dealing with. I had to start her on Flagyl tonight, as late as early evening things were still shooting through her and she was pooping out just mucous at points, I just think her stomach is so irritated at this point. So I started her on a course and I'll start a 7-day course of Panacur tomorrow. I'm also going to put her back on probiotics - if we're doing all of this stuff I think we should, but I also just realized I had her on probiotics for at least the first few weeks I had her so that could have something to do with why we didn't see issues early on.

 

So we'll see what happens with that. I guess I'll need to decide whether to do another course of Panacur in a few weeks. Since she got a dewormer pill a few weeks ago I'm thinking it may not be necessary. If after all of this symptoms return, we'll pursue testing wtih the vet. that this takes care of it.